Monatsdigest

BRAUN-SCHILLING

Date: 1997/08/01 14:10:26
From: Charles Braun <cbraun(a)win.bright.net>

Genealogists,
  I am looking for Church and Civil records for Alt Christburg, Kreis 
Mohrungen(?), East Prussia  and  Baumgarten, Kreis Rastenburg(?), East 
Prussia.
  Family names:
    John Braun, Sr.  b. 15 March 1843  Baumgarten, Germany GGrandfather
    Married at Alt Christburg, Germany 7 Nov. 1872
    Christina Schilling  b. 25 Jan. 1850  Alt Christburg, Germany
        GGrandmother
    CHILDREN:
    John Braun, Jr.  b. 27 Sept. 1876  Alt Christburg, Germany  
        Grandfather.
    Fred Braun  b.  23 Dec. 1877  Alt Christburg, Germany
    (Others, born in America)
    ALL OF THE ABOVE CAME TO AMERICA IN 1886.  (Lived in Horicon, Dodge 
    County, Wisconsin)
Charles F. Braun
P. O. Box 345
Osceola, WI  54020-0345


Re: BRAUN-SCHILLING

Date: 1997/08/01 14:44:38
From: W. Fred Rump <fred(a)k2nesoft.com>

Also sprach Charles Braun on  1 Aug 97 at 6:40 about BRAUN-SCHILLING:

> I am looking for Church and Civil records for Alt Christburg,
> Kreis Mohrungen(?), East Prussia  and  Baumgarten, Kreis Rastenburg(?),
> East Prussia.

Please tell the group were you are looking and where you failed to 
find so that no one will tell you to look there again.

It always helps to tell of progress or failure in your own search 
when asking questions.

Fred


Fred Rump             http://www.k2nesoft.com/~fred
26 Warren St
Beverly, NJ 08010        fred(a)compu.com or
609-386-6846             fred(a)k2nesoft.com

Re: BRAUN-SCHILLING

Date: 1997/08/01 19:00:25
From: Charles Braun <cbraun(a)win.bright.net>

Charles Braun wrote:
> 
> Genealogists,
>   I am looking for Church and Civil records for Alt Christburg, Kreis
> Mohrungen(?), East Prussia  and  Baumgarten, Kreis Rastenburg(?), East
> Prussia.
>   Family names:
>     John Braun, Sr.  b. 15 March 1843  Baumgarten, Germany GGrandfather
>     Married at Alt Christburg, Germany 7 Nov. 1872
>     Christina Schilling  b. 25 Jan. 1850  Alt Christburg, Germany
>         GGrandmother
>     CHILDREN:
>     John Braun, Jr.  b. 27 Sept. 1876  Alt Christburg, Germany
>         Grandfather.
>     Fred Braun  b.  23 Dec. 1877  Alt Christburg, Germany
>     (Others, born in America)
>     ALL OF THE ABOVE CAME TO AMERICA IN 1886.  (Lived in Horicon, Dodge
>     County, Wisconsin)
> Charles F. Braun
> P. O. Box 345
> Osceola, WI  54020-0345ADDITIONAL INFORMATION ON ABOVE--
  All of the above information from known local sources.
  In May of 1994 I visited Alt Christburg and the Church, now Catholic, 
which was originally started by the Teutonic Knights per a plaque inside 
the Church.  The Church interior as well as the exterior was mostly 
destroyed in WWII but restored through the will of the townspeople.  
Spoke to the Priest who indicated that NO old records remained but in 
1992 the daughter of the last Evangelical Minister made a visit.  I also 
visited the Church at Christburg thinking records may have been kept 
there.  At the time I didn't know where a "Baumgarten" was in that area 
so I visited a nearby village called "Baumgarth" thinking that the names 
could have been mixed up when handed down by family.  An old German lady 
was said to have lived nearby but when we called on her home she was not 
in.  Time did not permit us to linger longer.
  While in Berlin, I visited the Evangelisches Zentralarchiv at 
Jebenstr. 3 and was told the villages were not indexed and more research 
would be needed and that I should write.  Upon returning home I wrote 
but never received a reply or acknowledgement.  I thought they had 
possibly moved.
  In addition I've kept up with LDS filming activity and visited the LDS 
library in May of 1997.
  For those who don't know, Alt Christburg is south of Danzig a distance 
below Elbing and Christburg.  Baumgarten, the one I think could possibly 
be my GGrandfathers birthplace is a couple of Kreis to the east.
  To those interested, the above villages are slightly more modern, 
cleaner and more progressive then those in Pommern, Kreis Greifenberg, 
Lewetzow, Behlkow, Treptow area where my Grandfather Franz Parpart was 
from.
Regards,  Chuck Braun


Re: BRAUN-SCHILLING

Date: 1997/08/04 10:23:38
From: MADMANSMOM <MADMANSMOM(a)aol.com>

Charles - beware of false prophets!  Someone emailed me pretending to give me
an address.  The next thing I know they were asking me for $300 for research
that they were going to do for me.  Good luck. But a note to all to be aware
there are people out there to scam a researcher.  Mary

Re: BRAUN-SCHILLING

Date: 1997/08/04 13:53:27
From: RMASON4 <RMASON4(a)aol.com>

Charles:

Did your SCHILLING actually start with that surname.

I have a SCHILLING also, but his name originally was SCHELANGOWSKI but
shorten it to SCHILLING after arriving in the US.

Any thoughts on this?

Regards,

Russ

Re: BRAUN-SCHILLING

Date: 1997/08/04 14:36:03
From: Charles Braun <cbraun(a)win.bright.net>

RMASON4(a)aol.com wrote:
> 
> Charles:
> 
> Did your SCHILLING actually start with that surname.
> 
> I have a SCHILLING also, but his name originally was SCHELANGOWSKI but
> shorten it to SCHILLING after arriving in the US.
> 
> Any thoughts on this?
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Russ

Russ,
  Thanks for the note.  To the best of my knowledge the name has always 
been Schilling.  I'm having a heck of a time with the BRAUN/SCHILLING 
thing as far as over seas is concerned.  I requested a ships list but 
was told they couldn't find it.  Unfortunately, people don't look for 
BROWN.  I've had to name cross to find local marriage, birth, etc. info. 
 I haven't the proper map yet but Southeast of Alt Christburg is a sea 
called "Schillingsee".  Looks like that on a map I have but portion is 
cut off.  I really haven't researched this line seriously because of all 
the dead ends.  Chuck



Muller, Konigsberg

Date: 1997/08/09 19:31:26
From: MRS S MILLER <S.Miller(a)swansea.ac.uk>

I would like to hear from anyone who can help me trace the ancestors
of my g.grandfather, Richard William Mueller (RWM). 

Information of which I am certain:-

RWM was born in Koenigsburg, Prussia, abt 1854.  A UK Census 
lists him as a sailor, lodging in Swansea, South Wales, April 3, 1881.
RWM married Agnes Harris in Swansea on November 23, 1881. 
The marriage certificate gives his father as Richard William Mueller,
farmer (deceased). 
RWM returned to Koenigsburg soon after the 1st World War and 
died in Koenigsburg Town Hospital on September 10, 1922.  
The Death Certificate gives his address as 11 Rundteil 6.

Information passed down from elderly members of my family:-

RWM went to University in Koenigsberg.
RWM went back to Prussia and returned to S.Wales with two friends 
as stowaways.  One of these friends went on to America, the other 
died as a result of an industrial accident at a steel works in S.Wales. 
RWM won a medal when in the Prussian army and lost his trigger 
finger at some time. 
RWM was involved in starting one of the first motor garages in 
Swansea. 
RWM worked as a supervisor for Daimler in Coventry and built two 
houses, 17 Kingsway and 2 Hamilton Road, in Coventry. 
RWM was interned at Crystal Palace during the 1st World War and 
then sent back to Prussia. 
RWM's father died before he was born, in a riding accident. 
RWM's father's name was Richard William Mueller too and that he 
was a Consul in the Canary Islands.

Can anyone advise me where to start looking for relevant records? 
I do not speak German but I can get any information translated.

Hoping to hear from you soon.
Ian Miller.


Re: Muller, Konigsberg

Date: 1997/08/10 05:19:04
From: W. Fred Rump <fred(a)k2nesoft.com>

Also sprach MRS S MILLER on  9 Aug 97 at 18:19 about Muller, 
Konigsberg:

> RWM was born in Koenigsburg, Prussia, abt 1854.  A UK Census 
> lists him as a sailor, lodging in Swansea, South Wales, April 3,
> 1881. RWM married Agnes Harris in Swansea on November 23, 1881. The
> marriage certificate gives his father as Richard William Mueller,
> farmer (deceased). RWM returned to Koenigsburg soon after the 1st
> World War and died in Koenigsburg Town Hospital on September 10,
> 1922.  The Death Certificate gives his address as 11 Rundteil 6.
> 
> Can anyone advise me where to start looking for relevant records? I
> do not speak German but I can get any information translated.

Ian,

I have an 1857 Koenigsberg addressbook and it lists many Muellers, 
significant are 20 odd Mueller widows at that time. Also that there 
would be no farmers or farmers' widows in the city. A person whose 
occupation was Bauer would not have lived in the city. 

You say that you are certain that he was born about 1854 and in 
Koenigsberg. How certain is the year or the place? Is it the city or 
the Landkreis? The closest to farmer is one Gutsbesitzer (owner of an 
estate in the country) and a bunch of gardeners. 

I'm also curious about the Rundteil address. This came in the form 
Rundtheilgasse 1 and Rundtheilgasse 2 or first and second. Was yours 
really II Rundtheil with the house number 6? 
That would have been a new house as in 1857 the last house number on 
that street was 5. 

And it is Königsberg, not burg.

Fred

Fred Rump             http://www.k2nesoft.com/~fred
26 Warren St
Beverly, NJ 08010        fred(a)compu.com or
609-386-6846             fred(a)k2nesoft.com

Bauer in a city (was: Re: Muller, Konigsberg)

Date: 1997/08/10 21:07:18
From: Gunthard Stuebs <stuebs(a)chemie.uni-konstanz.de>

Am  9 Aug 97 um 10:46 schrieb W. Fred Rump:

> A person whose 
> occupation was Bauer would not have lived in the city. 

Fred, I don't want to be captious but in all cities which I know so far
there lived farmers too. In large trade and crafts-cities there lived
"full occupation" farmers and in smaller rural cities a lot craftsmen
did farming beside their craft.
Those city inhabitants who only farmed were also called Ackerbuerger. So,
there were always farmers who rented (pachten) the farm land which the
cities owned and who lived in the city centre or in suburbs.

Gunthard
-- 
*   Gunthard Stübs      *   e-mail: Stuebs(a)chemie.uni-konstanz.de   *
*   Konstanz, Germany   *                                           *

Re: Bauer in a city (was: Re: Muller, Konigsberg)

Date: 1997/08/10 21:40:14
From: W. Fred Rump <fred(a)k2nesoft.com>

Also sprach Gunthard Stuebs on 10 Aug 97 at 20:37 about Bauer in a 
city (was: Re: Muller, K:

> Am  9 Aug 97 um 10:46 schrieb W. Fred Rump:
> 
> > A person whose 
> > occupation was Bauer would not have lived in the city. 
> 
> Fred, I don't want to be captious but in all cities which I know so
> far there lived farmers too. In large trade and crafts-cities there
> lived "full occupation" farmers and in smaller rural cities a lot
> craftsmen did farming beside their craft. Those city inhabitants who
> only farmed were also called Ackerbuerger. So, there were always
> farmers who rented (pachten) the farm land which the cities owned
> and who lived in the city centre or in suburbs.

I would suggest then that you take a look at the 120 pages of 
Koenigsberg residents in the "Adreßbuch der Haupt- und 
Residenzstadt Königsberg - 1857" and show me just one Bauer among 
them.  I just spent some more time looking again. There aren't any. 

Perhaps the cities of Pommern were smaller and had Ackerbauer people 
living near their periphery but still within the city limits but in 
larger and more cosmopolitan cities this was not the case. It is the 
same for Danzig and Elbing where the farmers lived only in the 
Landkreise surrounding the cities. In all cases Gutsbesitzer are 
excepted as they often had city homes away from their estates. But 
your typical small farmer always lived on his land except in certain 
areas of Germany (especially Thueringia) where the villages had all 
the homes and the land was basically unoccupied. This goes back to 
the times when the vilages provided security which the outlying farm 
houses did not. 

In cases were the cities originally owned the land like the Triften 
outside of Elbing, these had long ago been sold off to the people who 
farmed them and now lived there. A long, long time ago each Buerger 
had rights to a slice of these lands and in those days the city 
people would farm these lands for their own needs.  But like I said, 
that was a long time ago when you couldn't just go to the market in 
January to buy a sack of something but had to already have it in your 
basement.

Fred

 

Fred

   

Fred Rump             http://www.k2nesoft.com/~fred
26 Warren St
Beverly, NJ 08010        fred(a)compu.com or
609-386-6846             fred(a)k2nesoft.com

Muller, Konigsberg

Date: 1997/08/12 01:42:40
From: MRS S MILLER <S.Miller(a)swansea.ac.uk>

Hello Fred,

Thanks for your e-mail.   I really appreciate the advice 
and information you gave. 

You ask.  "How certain is the year and place of birth 
for Richard William Muller ?"  

The approximate date of birth was deduced from his
Marriage Certificate. Nov 23, 1881, aged 27, and 
his Death Certificate, Sept 10, 1922, aged 67.
Taken together, these certificates suggest a date of birth 
in the range Sept 11 to Nov 22, 1854.

An alternative birth date is suggested by the Census 
taken in Swansea on Apr 3, 1881, aged 28. 
This indicates that his birth occurred during the year 
ending on Apr 2, 1854.  I think that this is less reliable.

The place of birth recorded in the 1881 Census and on 
the Death Certificate is Konigsberg, Prussia.  
I do not know if the place of birth was in the city or 
the Landkreis.  

The certified copy of his Death Certificate is a typed  
translation, issued by the British Vice Consul in 
Stettin on December 28, 1922.  It clearly states that 
he lived at "I I  Rundteil  6, Konigsberg, Prussia".  

Do Birth, Marriage, Death or Census records exist 
for the Konigsberg area, prior to 1880?

Please send more information on the Gutsbesitzer, 
mentioned in your e-mail. 

Best wishes.
Ian Miller.


FERCH, John Christoph; POS,PRU,DEU>IN,USA; 1836-1901

Date: 1997/08/13 22:28:48
From: Don R. Millbranth <drmdrm(a)mail.netnitco.net>

	John Christoph FERCH was b. 25 Dec 1836 in Ulch, Holland, Kreis Colmar,
Prov. Posen according to his death record at the local church; d. 11 May
1901 in Hamlet, IN.
Married Augusta Mathilda Creig (Kraege) in abt 1865, in IN, USA. Ernestine
(nee MARX) believed to be a sister of John C.
	Would appreciate any/all information on either/both John C and/or
Ernestine.
	Thank you..

don
drmdrm(a)mail.netnitco.net 

Re: FERCH, John Christoph; POS,PRU,DEU>IN,USA; 1836-1901

Date: 1997/08/13 23:41:32
From: Joel Streich <streich_joel(a)jpmorgan.com>

> 	John Christoph FERCH was b. 25 Dec 1836 in Ulch, Holland, Kreis Colmar,
> Prov. Posen according to his death record at the local church; d. 11 May
> 1901 in Hamlet, IN.
> Married Augusta Mathilda Creig (Kraege) in abt 1865, in IN, USA. Ernestine
> (nee MARX) believed to be a sister of John C.
> 	Would appreciate any/all information on either/both John C and/or
> Ernestine.
> 	Thank you..
> 
> don
> drmdrm(a)mail.netnitco.net 
>

Dear Don,
 
Ulch should be Usch -- mind the old German s which looks like f!
Hoelland is more often written Hauland---> hence "Usch Hauland", Kreis
Kolmar in the spelling you'll find on the Karte des Deutschen Reich
etc.


Usch Hauland is about 2-3 miles due north of Usch.  Usch, like Nakel
and Czarnikau, is a very old town and was origially founded as a fortified
town by the Pommeranni at an important crossing point of the Netze River.

I once checked the LDS and saw that they had some pretty good info
for Usch.  The LDS may be your best bet for further research.  Look under
Usch for Usch Hauland.

Regards,
 Joel Streich




Re: Bauer in a city (was: Re: Muller, Konigsberg)

Date: 1997/08/17 14:24:30
From: GHELLBARDT <GHELLBARDT(a)aol.com>

In einer eMail vom 10.8.97 20:13:11 MEZ, schreibt Frad Rump:

<< Perhaps the cities of Pommern were smaller and had Ackerbauer people 
 living near their periphery but still within the city limits but in 
 larger and more cosmopolitan cities this was not the case. It is the 
 same for Danzig and Elbing where the farmers lived only in the 
 Landkreise surrounding the cities. In all cases Gutsbesitzer are 
 excepted as they often had city homes away from their estates. But 
 your typical small farmer always lived on his land except in certain 
 areas of Germany (especially Thueringia) where the villages had all 
 the homes and the land was basically unoccupied. This goes back to 
 the times when the vilages provided security which the outlying farm 
 houses did not.  >>

The  city of Allenstein (Olsztyn) had a population of some 50000 people at
the end of the war. I lived there until February 1945 and 2 of our immediate
neighbors were farmers. A little farther away were others. The typical small
farmer today still lives in a village in most parts of Germany. In the north
and east only, where the typical farming estate is larger, the farmer is
living on his land. For example in the southern part of Niedersachsen farmers
live in the village whereas in Wesphalia the farmstead outside the village is
typical. Only after WW II farmers were subsidized to build new farmsteads
outside the village or city on their land (Aussiedlerhoefe). Boeblingen,
where I live now, with 45000 inhabitants has Bauern within the city limits
and Sindelfingen, next to us and well known to everybody who ever picked up
his Mercedes at the factory, built its new City Hall right next to the manure
heap of one of its farmers.

Guenter Hellbardt

Re: Bauer in a city

Date: 1997/08/20 17:49:01
From: Gunthard Stuebs <stuebs(a)chemie.uni-konstanz.de>

Am 10 Aug 97 um 3:07 schrieb W. Fred Rump:

> Also sprach Gunthard Stuebs on 10 Aug 97 at 20:37 about Bauer in a 
> city (was: Re: Muller, K:
> > Am  9 Aug 97 um 10:46 schrieb W. Fred Rump:
> > > A person whose occupation was Bauer would not have lived in the city. 
> > far there lived farmers too. In large trade and crafts-cities there
> > lived "full occupation" farmers and in smaller rural cities a lot
> > craftsmen did farming beside their craft. 
> 
> I would suggest then that you take a look at the 120 pages of 
> Koenigsberg residents in the "Adreßbuch der Haupt- und 
> Residenzstadt Königsberg - 1857" and show me just one Bauer among 
> them. 

I have no access to this book right now. But if you would send me this
book and if possible also a citizen register (Buergerbuch) I guess that
I may show you a few farmers too. :-)

> I just spent some more time looking again. There aren't any. 

Maybe there is not written "Bauer" and in regard to the inhabitants 
number there are only a few but there should be at least a few.

Do you want to say that no farmers lived in the cities all the time?
If not for which time and size of the cities you claim this?

In my opinion farmers lived in the cities all the time - beginning in
the middle age and up to the end/today as Guenter wrote. Perhaps the
number descreased after the reforms in the early 19th century.

> Perhaps the cities of Pommern were smaller and 

I guess there are no differences - in 1340 the famous hanseatic city
Stralsund had about 10,000 inhabitants (how many had Koenigsberg?) 
and in 1945 Stettin had nearly 400,000 inhabitants.
Of course there were also cities with only a few (less than 5,000)
inhabitants in 1945. But I am talking about all cities - no matter 
of the size.

> had Ackerbauer people living near their periphery but still within 
> the city limits but in larger and more cosmopolitan cities this was 
> not the case. 

As I wrote earlier during the first time the Ackerbuerger lived within
the wall and later when the cities grew they lived in the suburbs. 

In the middle age the cities looked not much different than the villages
did - the houses were the same except a few stone houses and there ran
porks and other animals on the street...
That is no matter whether cosmopolitan or not.

> It is the same for Danzig and Elbing where the farmers lived only in 
> the Landkreise surrounding the cities. 

We are talking about all the cities in general not only about the largest 
cities there like Koenigsberg, or?

> But your typical small farmer always lived on his land except in certain 
> areas of Germany (especially Thueringia) where the villages had all 
> the homes and the land was basically unoccupied. 

I am mainly talking about the baltic sea provinces. As far as I know 
the German farmers lived in communities - at the countryside in villages 
and the farmers who farmed the land near the cities lived of course in 
the cities itself.
If I had a fax machine I would fax you copies out of several citizen 
registers from different large cities in Pomerania where there are 
mentioned "Ackersmann" etc. ... in the 18th and 19th century at least.

> This goes back to the times when the vilages provided security which 
> the outlying farm houses did not. 

The villages provided only security against wild animals not against
knights. The villages had not walls like the cities. In war times the
farmers fled into the cities if they managed it.
 
only my knowledge and opinion so far, Gunthard
-- 
*   Gunthard Stübs      *   e-mail: Stuebs(a)chemie.uni-konstanz.de   *
*   Konstanz, Germany   *                                           *

EXPO

Date: 1997/08/30 21:31:14
From: Charles Braun <cbraun(a)win.bright.net>

To list--
 Following picked up from GRA News.

  THE MIGRATION EXPERIENCE NETWORK

"When the EXPO World Exposition opens to the public in
Hannover in the year 2000, Bremen and Bremerhaven will
invite the world to an unusual project.  The two cities
will once again recount the history of the emigration to
America.  The Bremerhaven Historical Museum is assembling
the first German emigration database.  Five million com-
puterized records of passenger arrivals in the USA will
offer visitors unparalleled opportunities for family research."

For further information, write:
EXPO  2000 Program,
Bremen and Bremerhaven,
Langenstrasse 53,
28195 Bremen, Germany

Chuck Braun.  Need information on Baumgarten, Germany somewhere close to 
Kreis Mohrungen.