Monatsdigest

Re: [HN] SCHROEDER / SCHRADER, Bremen to Baltimore 1866 > Indiana

Date: 2003/02/01 06:20:47
From: John Siemon <jsiemon(a)bcpl.net>

Sandra,
My ancestors came from Hanover, traveled from Bremen to Baltimore in Dec
1865.  I found them in "Germans to America," as from Germany, with the name
of the ship and date of arrival.  From that, I found the passenger list on
microfilm, which listed their actual residence as Escherode, a town in the
Kingdom of Hanover.

I've looked in the "Germans to America" CD for your names.  There are many
similar, but none quite fit the names and ages you listed.  However, since
you know the probable month of arrival in Baltimore, it would be worth
checking that microfilm roll for ships from Bremen.  If you find them on a
list, it may list the town they came from.  September 1866 should be on Roll
15 of National Archives Microfilm Series M255, "Passenger Lists of Vessels
Arriving at Baltimore, 1820-1891."

John



----- Original Message -----
From: "Sandra Powell" <sandrapowell(a)cableone.net>
To: <Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net>
Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 7:52 PM
Subject: [HN] SCHROEDER / SCHRADER, Bremen to Baltimore 1866 > Indiana


> My great grandfather was Charles Henry SCHROEDER, born 1858 in Hanover,
Germany.  According to family records, he came to the United States in 1866
with his father, John SCHROEDER.  The family lived in southern Indiana.
John SCHRADER filed his naturalization declaration March 30, 1867 in Jackson
County, Indiana, stating he was a native of Hanover, aged about 52, owed
allegiance to the King of Hanover, embarked at Bremen and arrived at
Baltimore September 1866.  Every record located for John and Charles simply
lists Hanover, Germany as place of birth, nothing more specific.  The 1880
Jackson County, Indiana census lists John 68, wife Kate 48, and children
Charley 22, John 20, Annie 16, Willie 11, and Louisa 8.  The Charles H.
Schroeder family relocated to northeast Texas in 1907, and has had no
contact with other descendents of John Schroeder for many years.   I would
love to reestablish a connection with this Schroeder family.  Eventually I
hope to find where they lived in Hanover.  I would appreciate hearing from
anyone familiar with this family.
> Sandra Powell
> _______________________________________________
> Hannover-L mailing list
> Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l
>



Re: [HN] SCHROEDER / SCHRADER, Bremen to Baltimore 1866 > Indiana

Date: 2003/02/01 06:51:42
From: Barbara Stewart <raymondg(a)attbi.com>

Good idea, John! 
      Sandra, before you go through microfilm rolls, be sure to check the
online lists of immigration ships at www.istg.rootsweb.com   I just checked
for the Schroeder name and got 195 hits, so you could  go through all those
and  see if you find your family.  However, not all ship lists give the
place of origin, sometimes it just says Germany or Hannover or whatever.
Maybe you'll get lucky!
Barbara





on 2/1/03 1:19 AM, John Siemon at jsiemon(a)bcpl.net wrote:

> Sandra,
> My ancestors came from Hanover, traveled from Bremen to Baltimore in Dec
> 1865.  I found them in "Germans to America," as from Germany, with the name
> of the ship and date of arrival.  From that, I found the passenger list on
> microfilm, which listed their actual residence as Escherode, a town in the
> Kingdom of Hanover.
> 
> I've looked in the "Germans to America" CD for your names.  There are many
> similar, but none quite fit the names and ages you listed.  However, since
> you know the probable month of arrival in Baltimore, it would be worth
> checking that microfilm roll for ships from Bremen.  If you find them on a
> list, it may list the town they came from.  September 1866 should be on Roll
> 15 of National Archives Microfilm Series M255, "Passenger Lists of Vessels
> Arriving at Baltimore, 1820-1891."
> 
> John
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Sandra Powell" <sandrapowell(a)cableone.net>
> To: <Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net>
> Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 7:52 PM
> Subject: [HN] SCHROEDER / SCHRADER, Bremen to Baltimore 1866 > Indiana
> 
> 
>> My great grandfather was Charles Henry SCHROEDER, born 1858 in Hanover,
> Germany.  According to family records, he came to the United States in 1866
> with his father, John SCHROEDER.  The family lived in southern Indiana.
> John SCHRADER filed his naturalization declaration March 30, 1867 in Jackson
> County, Indiana, stating he was a native of Hanover, aged about 52, owed
> allegiance to the King of Hanover, embarked at Bremen and arrived at
> Baltimore September 1866.  Every record located for John and Charles simply
> lists Hanover, Germany as place of birth, nothing more specific.  The 1880
> Jackson County, Indiana census lists John 68, wife Kate 48, and children
> Charley 22, John 20, Annie 16, Willie 11, and Louisa 8.  The Charles H.
> Schroeder family relocated to northeast Texas in 1907, and has had no
> contact with other descendents of John Schroeder for many years.   I would
> love to reestablish a connection with this Schroeder family.  Eventually I
> hope to find where they lived in Hanover.  I would appreciate hearing from
> anyone familiar with this family.
>> Sandra Powell
>> _______________________________________________
>> Hannover-L mailing list
>> Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
>> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l
>> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Hannover-L mailing list
> Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l



[HN] King Wilhelm and NEW surnames

Date: 2003/02/01 19:18:38
From: CarolSue Robinson <cswr(a)earthlink.net>

After 30 years of seeking family origins in Germany, our family are so happy to be looking for new surnames in the Hannover Province, and Neidersachen areas.
Here are our surnames (most new):  HÜLSMEYER / HOLTZMEYER, PETRI,
REICHERT, CORELL, MÜLLER / MUELLER, and SAUERESSIG / WEINGARD /
VINYARD, WALTER.

If anyone is doing historical research or timelines: any reference you can send
and share for a good (english version) website on KING WILHELM of the
early 1850s, would be gratefully received!! One of our ancestors served this
King as a bodyguard before emigrating to the U.S. in 1854.

Thank you for being here, and there.
Peace!!      Carol





[HN] Kirchner

Date: 2003/02/01 20:32:31
From: BAHazy1 <BAHazy1(a)aol.com>

I am researching my ggparents Adam and Elizabeth Gumpert Kirchner who 
migrated to the USA about 1888 or 1889. Also Tobias Kirchner from around 
Norden area. Need churches in this area and how i can view church records. 
Seeking any sibling or other related family members. Any help would be 
appreciated. Thank You Betty


Re: [HN] King Wilhelm and NEW surnames

Date: 2003/02/01 21:40:31
From: James Crowley <seamuscrow(a)hotmail.com>

Hello Carol,
I'm doing some research on family who were also in service to the ruling house in Hannover around this same time period, but there was no King Wilhelm in Hannover that I know of. Try contacting the Niedersächsisches Hauptstaatsarchiv in Hannover.They maintain employment records for individuals who worked for the royal family.





From: CarolSue Robinson <cswr(a)earthlink.net>
Reply-To: hannover-l(a)genealogy.net
To: hannover-l(a)genealogy.net
Subject: [HN] King Wilhelm and NEW surnames
Date: Sat, 01 Feb 2003 10:17:52 -0800

After 30 years of seeking family origins in Germany, our family are so happy to be looking for new surnames in the Hannover Province, and Neidersachen areas.
Here are our surnames (most new):  HÜLSMEYER / HOLTZMEYER, PETRI,
REICHERT, CORELL, MÜLLER / MUELLER, and SAUERESSIG / WEINGARD /
VINYARD, WALTER.

If anyone is doing historical research or timelines: any reference you can send
and share for a good (english version) website on KING WILHELM of the
early 1850s, would be gratefully received!! One of our ancestors served this
King as a bodyguard before emigrating to the U.S. in 1854.

Thank you for being here, and there.
Peace!!      Carol






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Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l


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Re: [HN] Kirchner

Date: 2003/02/01 21:48:40
From: Barbara Stewart <raymondg(a)attbi.com>

Hi Betty,
     The LDS have church records as well as other records available for
Norden.  Go to www.familysearch.org  and click on Searching for Ancestors
and then go the the Family History Library Catalog and do a search for
Norden.  It will show you the microfilms they have and  you can order them
and  view them  at the nearest LDS center. It is the best way to see
original records.  Good  luck,
Barbara 



on 2/1/03 12:32 PM, BAHazy1(a)aol.com at BAHazy1(a)aol.com wrote:

> I am researching my ggparents Adam and Elizabeth Gumpert Kirchner who
> migrated to the USA about 1888 or 1889. Also Tobias Kirchner from around
> Norden area. Need churches in this area and how i can view church records.
> Seeking any sibling or other related family members. Any help would be
> appreciated. Thank You Betty
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Hannover-L mailing list
> Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l



Re: [HN] King Wilhelm and NEW surnames

Date: 2003/02/02 00:22:57
From: Ralf Stamporek <R.S(a)pobox.com>

Hello,

let me jump in here for a short thought. There where plenty of
King Wilhelm in / around / dealing with Hannover. Just to
mention Wilhelm IV (1765 - 1837) King of Hannover and Great Britain.
He was the third son of King Georg III.
King Georg IV deceased without children left in 1830 - his only daughter
died before him - and so his younger brother (Wilhelm Duke of Clarence)
inherited the Crown of Great Britain and Hannover. However, Wilhelm IV
never visited Hannover.

This, just as a very very short abstract to Wilhelm in Hannover.

They had them there.

Regards
Ralf Stamporek

James Crowley wrote:
> 
> Hello Carol,
> I'm doing some research on family who were also in service to the ruling
> house in Hannover around this same time period, but there was no King
> Wilhelm in Hannover that I know of.
> Try contacting the Niedersächsisches Hauptstaatsarchiv in Hannover.They
> maintain employment records for individuals who worked for the royal family.
>


Re: [HN] King Wilhelm and NEW surnames

Date: 2003/02/02 07:26:39
From: CarolSue Robinson <cswr(a)earthlink.net>

THANK YOU so much for your interest.  Subject ancestor emigrated to the U.S.
in 1854, listed himself as "shoemaker" by trade.  However, he was the last
of 5 brothers who emigrated because he was in what as noted the "King's
Select Army", which I was later told they were like bodyguards. The King wanted all of these men to be taller than 6ft, and brawny...I found out later. I guess
I need to identify what King it is prior to 1854.  His brothers came here
before him...one in 1851, and the other 3 in 1852.  Apparently he first
served 6 yeasrs in the regular Army, and the last 6 yrs in the King's Select
Army.  The other brothers and their parents resided in Aurich-Plaggenburg
region.  I am hoping to find a region that this brother may have resided
for about 6-12 years. We are finding no mention of him in either the Lutheran
or Reformed churches. Thanks again, for your help.  Carol
========

Ralf Stamporek wrote:

Hello,

let me jump in here for a short thought. There where plenty of
King Wilhelm in / around / dealing with Hannover. Just to
mention Wilhelm IV (1765 - 1837) King of Hannover and Great Britain.
He was the third son of King Georg III.
King Georg IV deceased without children left in 1830 - his only daughter
died before him - and so his younger brother (Wilhelm Duke of Clarence)
inherited the Crown of Great Britain and Hannover. However, Wilhelm IV
never visited Hannover.

This, just as a very very short abstract to Wilhelm in Hannover.

They had them there.

Regards
Ralf Stamporek

James Crowley wrote:
Hello Carol,
I'm doing some research on family who were also in service to the ruling
house in Hannover around this same time period, but there was no King
Wilhelm in Hannover that I know of.
Try contacting the Niedersächsisches Hauptstaatsarchiv in Hannover.They
maintain employment records for individuals who worked for the royal family.


_______________________________________________
Hannover-L mailing list
Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l






Re: [HN] King Wilhelm and NEW surnames

Date: 2003/02/02 08:54:24
From: Uwe ErichsSohn <Uwe.Schaerff(a)t-online.de>

May be you may find more at  www.KGL.de  (KingsGermanLegion) and links.
Uwe

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
CarolSue Robinson schrieb am 02.02.03:
> THANK YOU so much for your interest.  Subject ancestor emigrated to the U.S.
> in 1854, listed himself as "shoemaker" by trade.  However, he was the last
> of 5 brothers who emigrated because he was in what as noted the "King's
> Select Army", which I was later told they were like bodyguards.  The 
> King wanted
> all of these men to be taller than 6ft, and brawny...I found out later. 
>  I guess
> I need to identify what King it is prior to 1854.  His brothers came here
> before him...one in 1851, and the other 3 in 1852.  Apparently he first
> served 6 yeasrs in the regular Army, and the last 6 yrs in the King's Select
> Army.  The other brothers and their parents resided in Aurich-Plaggenburg
> region.  I am hoping to find a region that this brother may have resided
> for about 6-12 years. We are finding no mention of him in either the 
> Lutheran
> or Reformed churches. Thanks again, for your help.  Carol
> ========
>
> Ralf Stamporek wrote:
>
> >Hello,
> >
> >let me jump in here for a short thought. There where plenty of
> >King Wilhelm in / around / dealing with Hannover. Just to
> >mention Wilhelm IV (1765 - 1837) King of Hannover and Great Britain.
> >He was the third son of King Georg III.
> >King Georg IV deceased without children left in 1830 - his only daughter
> >died before him - and so his younger brother (Wilhelm Duke of Clarence)
> >inherited the Crown of Great Britain and Hannover. However, Wilhelm IV
> >never visited Hannover.
> >
> >This, just as a very very short abstract to Wilhelm in Hannover.
> >
> >They had them there.
> >
> >Regards
> >Ralf Stamporek
> >
> >James Crowley wrote:
> >  
> >
> >>Hello Carol,
> >>I'm doing some research on family who were also in service to the ruling
> >>house in Hannover around this same time period, but there was no King
> >>Wilhelm in Hannover that I know of.
> >>Try contacting the Niedersächsisches Hauptstaatsarchiv in Hannover.They
> >>maintain employment records for individuals who worked for the royal family.
> _______________________________________________
> Hannover-L mailing list
> Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l

===========================================================================
Uwe Schärff     Falenbek 8     DE-22149 Hamburg-Rahlstedt
'fax (0049) 040 - 669 09 950   ePost: uwe.schaerff(a)t-online.de   
===========================================================================



[HN] Amtsschafmeister

Date: 2003/02/02 10:04:10
From: pppgj(a)t-online.de <Pppgj(a)t-online.de>

Hallo,
habe einige Amtsschafmeister unter meinen Ahnen.Kann mir jemand freundlicherweise erklären, was das für ein Job war?

Danke und schönen Sonntag,
Peter


Re: [HN] SCHROEDER / SCHRADER, Bremen to Baltimore 1866 > Indiana

Date: 2003/02/02 22:27:19
From: Sandra Powell <sandrapowell(a)cableone.net>

John and Barbara,
    Thanks so much for the suggestions.  I hope I have the same good fortune
in finding my Hanover ancestors that John did.  I have ordered microfilm for
Baltimore arrivals--the film that includes the Baltimore City lists.  Based
on John's advice and the tip from Barbara about checking the Immigrants
Ships Transcribers Guild lists at Rootsweb, I spent several hours checking
every Bremen to Baltimore ships list for 1866, then the ships from Bremen
that docked in other ports, then the ships that sailed from Hamburg.  I also
checked several months in the latter part of 1865 and early 1867.  So far I
haven't found my family.  The one thing I am pretty certain of is the 1866
time period, as that information came from my great grandmother's records.
Her actual note is:  Charles Schroeder "came to United States after the war
was over, in the year 1866, with his father John Schroeder".  Charles
Schroeder's 1937 obit says he came to America with a sister at the age of
seven years.  There is no mention of a mother or other siblings, and I have
wondered if John married wife Kate after arriving in the United States.
According to the 1880 census the two younger children, Willie and Louisa,
were born in Indiana.  My aunt told me the family sailed from Hamburg, which
is why I also checked those lists.
    I'll keep looking.  Maybe they will be on the microfilm.  I really
appreciate your help.
Sandra

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Siemon" <jsiemon(a)bcpl.net>
To: <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
Sent: Saturday, February 01, 2003 3:19 AM
Subject: Re: [HN] SCHROEDER / SCHRADER, Bremen to Baltimore 1866 > Indiana


Sandra,
My ancestors came from Hanover, traveled from Bremen to Baltimore in Dec
1865.  I found them in "Germans to America," as from Germany, with the name
of the ship and date of arrival.  From that, I found the passenger list on
microfilm, which listed their actual residence as Escherode, a town in the
Kingdom of Hanover.

I've looked in the "Germans to America" CD for your names.  There are many
similar, but none quite fit the names and ages you listed.  However, since
you know the probable month of arrival in Baltimore, it would be worth
checking that microfilm roll for ships from Bremen.  If you find them on a
list, it may list the town they came from.  September 1866 should be on Roll
15 of National Archives Microfilm Series M255, "Passenger Lists of Vessels
Arriving at Baltimore, 1820-1891."

John






Re: [HN] SCHROEDER / SCHRADER, Bremen to Baltimore 1866 > Indiana

Date: 2003/02/02 23:25:13
From: Barbara Stewart <raymondg(a)attbi.com>

Sandra,
      Oh, dear!  I should have  told you that there is a search engine for
ITSG at the bottom of each page (after you click on one of the volumes).
That is where there were 195 hits for Schroeder. You would have to try the
various spellings of Schroeder as well.
      I searched through the Baltimore ship lists for 1853 not long ago. It
doesn't take that long.  I don't have what  it takes to go through the 13
rolls of film for arrivals in New York for one year!
     If you're from a city that has a genealogy dept,  you should check the
Germans to America volumes.  A new one came out recently that may not be on
John's CDs. If you still don't have success finding the right ship, you
could try a  search for emigrants that is on a German website. It is:

   http://app.staatsarchive.niedersachsen.de/findbuch/

  It has the records for permission to emigrate  (like passports). It is a
little hard to read if you don't know German. You can search the archives
in Osnabruck, Hannover, and Wolfbuttel one at a time.  Unfortunately, I
never found anything there, but I wrote to the Osnabruck site and they
answered that indeed  there  were  no Gugelmeyers. What's more, Werner
Honkamp who is on our list and helps people A LOT actually went out of his
way to check in the Osnabruck archives personally. He's a good man!
   Anyway, you should continue what other paths you can, because I can tell
you for sure that the great majority of the Baltimore lists I looked at
never gave the specific town to my dismay.

Barbara


on 2/2/03 1:31 PM, Sandra Powell at sandrapowell(a)cableone.net wrote:

> John and Barbara,
> Thanks so much for the suggestions.  I hope I have the same good fortune
> in finding my Hanover ancestors that John did.  I have ordered microfilm for
> Baltimore arrivals--the film that includes the Baltimore City lists.  Based
> on John's advice and the tip from Barbara about checking the Immigrants
> Ships Transcribers Guild lists at Rootsweb, I spent several hours checking
> every Bremen to Baltimore ships list for 1866, then the ships from Bremen
> that docked in other ports, then the ships that sailed from Hamburg.  I also
> checked several months in the latter part of 1865 and early 1867.  So far I
> haven't found my family.  The one thing I am pretty certain of is the 1866
> time period, as that information came from my great grandmother's records.
> Her actual note is:  Charles Schroeder "came to United States after the war
> was over, in the year 1866, with his father John Schroeder".  Charles
> Schroeder's 1937 obit says he came to America with a sister at the age of
> seven years.  There is no mention of a mother or other siblings, and I have
> wondered if John married wife Kate after arriving in the United States.
> According to the 1880 census the two younger children, Willie and Louisa,
> were born in Indiana.  My aunt told me the family sailed from Hamburg, which
> is why I also checked those lists.
> I'll keep looking.  Maybe they will be on the microfilm.  I really
> appreciate your help.
> Sandra
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John Siemon" <jsiemon(a)bcpl.net>
> To: <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
> Sent: Saturday, February 01, 2003 3:19 AM
> Subject: Re: [HN] SCHROEDER / SCHRADER, Bremen to Baltimore 1866 > Indiana
> 
> 
> Sandra,
> My ancestors came from Hanover, traveled from Bremen to Baltimore in Dec
> 1865.  I found them in "Germans to America," as from Germany, with the name
> of the ship and date of arrival.  From that, I found the passenger list on
> microfilm, which listed their actual residence as Escherode, a town in the
> Kingdom of Hanover.
> 
> I've looked in the "Germans to America" CD for your names.  There are many
> similar, but none quite fit the names and ages you listed.  However, since
> you know the probable month of arrival in Baltimore, it would be worth
> checking that microfilm roll for ships from Bremen.  If you find them on a
> list, it may list the town they came from.  September 1866 should be on Roll
> 15 of National Archives Microfilm Series M255, "Passenger Lists of Vessels
> Arriving at Baltimore, 1820-1891."
> 
> John
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Hannover-L mailing list
> Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l



Re: [HN] King Wilhelm and NEW surnames

Date: 2003/02/03 02:31:45
From: Maureen <mcshelly2(a)msn.com>

Carol,

I noticed that your are researching REICHERT from Hannover.

I have a name that looks like Minna or Mina REICHERT or REICHART on an old
marriage certificate for her son Fred from Jersey City, Hudson County, New
Jersey.

This woman would have married Johann Friedrich Heinrich "Fritz" GANSBERG and
had two surviving sons, Fred (ca. 1873) and Emil (ca.1876).

She may have emigrated with Fritz from Hannover or Bremen about 1870, or
they may have met, married and lived in NY, NJ, or Baltimore areas after he
emigrated.

Mina or Minna (or Emma?) REICHART or REICHART died sometime between
1876-1882, when Fritz had his first child with his second wife in Hudson
County, NJ.  There is no record I can find of Fritz in Hudson County prior
to 1881.

Maureen Shelly

----- Original Message -----
From: "CarolSue Robinson" <cswr(a)earthlink.net>
To: <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
Sent: Saturday, February 01, 2003 12:17 PM
Subject: [HN] King Wilhelm and NEW surnames


> After 30 years of seeking family origins in Germany, our family are so
> happy to
> be looking for new surnames in the Hannover Province, and Neidersachen
> areas.
> Here are our surnames (most new):  HÜLSMEYER / HOLTZMEYER, PETRI,
> REICHERT, CORELL, MÜLLER / MUELLER, and SAUERESSIG / WEINGARD /
> VINYARD, WALTER.
>
> If anyone is doing historical research or timelines: any reference you
> can send
> and share for a good (english version) website on KING WILHELM of the
> early 1850s, would be gratefully received!!  One of our ancestors served
> this
> King as a bodyguard before emigrating to the U.S. in 1854.
>
> Thank you for being here, and there.
> Peace!!      Carol
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Hannover-L mailing list
> Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l
>


Re: [HN] SCHROEDER / SCHRADER, Bremen to Baltimore 1866 > Indiana

Date: 2003/02/03 02:59:07
From: Sandra Powell <sandrapowell(a)cableone.net>

Barbara,
    I'll admit to being a bit obsessive, but not enough to scroll through 13
rolls of microfilm overnight. <LOL>  That said, I don't quite trust search
engines with the Schroeder search, because I'm concerned about missing them
due to spelling variations.  Actually, I only looked at ships departing
Bremen and Hamburg, so it wasn't too difficult.  I have used the search
engine at Genealogy.com to search (without success obviously) the
immigration and ships records.  The surname list at Genealogy.com is alpha,
so I found the ISTG lists on Rootsweb helpful as family members are grouped.
    My local library doesn't have the Germans to America series, and the
closest is about 130 miles away.  The next time I'm in Little Rock, I will
check those.  In the meantime, I'll check the German website.  I don't know
German, but have a couple of German friends who will translate.
    Thanks for your help.
Sandra

"Barbara Stewart" raymondg(a)attbi.com on February 02, 2003 wrote:
Sandra,
      Oh, dear!  I should have  told you that there is a search engine for
ITSG at the bottom of each page (after you click on one of the volumes).
That is where there were 195 hits for Schroeder. You would have to try the
various spellings of Schroeder as well.
      I searched through the Baltimore ship lists for 1853 not long ago. It
doesn't take that long.  I don't have what  it takes to go through the 13
rolls of film for arrivals in New York for one year!
     If you're from a city that has a genealogy dept,  you should check the
Germans to America volumes.  A new one came out recently that may not be on
John's CDs. If you still don't have success finding the right ship, you
could try a  search for emigrants that is on a German website. It is:

http://app.staatsarchive.niedersachsen.de/findbuch/

  It has the records for permission to emigrate  (like passports). It is a
little hard to read if you don't know German. You can search the archives
in Osnabruck, Hannover, and Wolfbuttel one at a time.  Unfortunately, I
never found anything there, but I wrote to the Osnabruck site and they
answered that indeed  there  were  no Gugelmeyers. What's more, Werner
Honkamp who is on our list and helps people A LOT actually went out of his
way to check in the Osnabruck archives personally. He's a good man!
   Anyway, you should continue what other paths you can, because I can tell
you for sure that the great majority of the Baltimore lists I looked at
never gave the specific town to my dismay.

Barbara




Re: [HN] SCHROEDER / SCHRADER, Bremen to Baltimore 1866 > Indiana

Date: 2003/02/03 05:43:09
From: Gary E. Myer <bruggeym(a)bcpl.net>

Sandra,
One comment on the ships' lists on microfilm:
These lists sat in storage for over 100 years before microfilmers came along to preserve them. During that time, the lists were exposed to rodents, leaky roofs, high-acid storage boxes etc. It's a wonder any made it into the 20th century! I know from my own research as a professional genealogist (specializing in German-American families) that some of these lists were found in fragments, and microfilmers had the unenviable job of trying to reassemble lists before they could be microfilmed. Some lists were published in German-language newspapers (in Baltimore, for example), and from these published lists, we know that some lists were improperly re-assembled by the microfilmers--e.g., date and title page of one list put together with list of names from another list. So trying to find your ancestor in the ships' lists is anything but an "exact science". I have often told clients, "finding your ancestor in the ship's list is the frosting on the cake for your genealogy". I recommend exhausting every other source in the U.S. when trying to find place of origin (German-language church records in the place of settlement, possible obits in local German-language newspapers, if still extant etc.
I wish you much luck (viel Glück!).
--Gary

Gary E. Myer
37 Colonial Drive
Linthicum Heights, MD 21090
(voice) 410-636-1113 (email) bruggeym(a)bcpl.net
I Cor 13:4 (from "The Message", Eugene H. Peterson's transl. of NT)





[HN] Suche: Kirchenbuch-Archive

Date: 2003/02/04 02:33:13
From: Gerhard Wahl <gerhard(a)wahlweb.de>

Hallo Liste,

da das Gebiet um Hannover für mich genealogisches Neuland ist,
hoffe ich auf Hilfe bei der Beantwortung folgender Frage:

Welche Archive, Kirchenbuchämter oder Gemeinden verwahren
die Kirchenbücher bzw. Microfiches folgender Orte:

- Blomberg
- Landesbergen
- Müsingen
- Obernkirchen
- Petershagen
- Vehlen

Die Informationen auf den Seiten des LKA Hannover sind nicht ganz eindeutig:
einerseits wird auf die Gemeinden verwiesen, andererseits gibt es einen
Hinweis
auf Microfiches im Kirchenbuchamt Hannover...

Grüsse aus der Wetterau
Gerhard Wahl



Re: [HN] Suche: Kirchenbuch-Archive

Date: 2003/02/04 07:58:01
From: desu99 <desu99(a)web.de>

Guten Morgen,


also fuer Obernkirchen und Vehlen ist es das Staatsarchiv Bückeburg, ich glaube auch für Petershagen, bin mir damit aber nicht ganz sicher. Suche selbst des öfteren im Archiv Bückeburg.

Gruß Dennis (Meier)

P.S. Interesse an einem Daten u. Gebietsaustausch zu allen Schaumburgern? Mail an desu99(a)web.de


hannover-l(a)genealogy.net schrieb am 04.02.03 02:34:15:
> 
> Hallo Liste,
> 
> da das Gebiet um Hannover für mich genealogisches Neuland ist,
> hoffe ich auf Hilfe bei der Beantwortung folgender Frage:
> 
> Welche Archive, Kirchenbuchämter oder Gemeinden verwahren
> die Kirchenbücher bzw. Microfiches folgender Orte:
> 
> - Blomberg
> - Landesbergen
> - Müsingen
> - Obernkirchen
> - Petershagen
> - Vehlen
> 
> Die Informationen auf den Seiten des LKA Hannover sind nicht ganz eindeutig:
> einerseits wird auf die Gemeinden verwiesen, andererseits gibt es einen
> Hinweis
> auf Microfiches im Kirchenbuchamt Hannover...
> 
> Grüsse aus der Wetterau
> Gerhard Wahl
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Hannover-L mailing list
> Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l


______________________________________________________________________________
E-Mails verschicken und auf Antwort warten? Mit der Kurier-SMS kann
das nicht mehr passieren - http://freemail.web.de/features/?mc=021174



[HN] e-mail

Date: 2003/02/04 17:34:12
From: W.A. Ridderbos <w.a.ridderbos(a)wanadoo.nl>

Wer ist Big(a)boss

Warum empfang ich jedesmal e-mail mit beilagen?

Gefahr für Viren?

W.A.Ridderbos


[HN] Süd-Niedersachsen: Ahnenspitzen Hillebrecht / Marienhagen

Date: 2003/02/04 18:55:03
From: Gerd Hillebrecht <Gerd.Hillebrecht(a)t-online.de>

 - English translation below -

Liebe Listenteilnehmer,

Seit drei Jahren erforsche ich die Vorfahren von mir und meiner Frau. Bis heute 
habe ich dabei ca. 1100 Personen mit 400 Ehepaaren gefunden. Der weitaus größte 
Teil der Personen lebte im Raum westlich und nordwestlich von Göttingen, 
Nörten-Hardenberg, Hardegsen und um Einbeck herum. Die hauptsächlichen Orte sind 
Grone, Esebeck, Barterode, Ellierode, Gladebeck, Lütgenrode, Dassensen, 
Lüthorst, Einbeck, nebst weiteren Orten.

Ich wende mich an die Liste, um bei meinen Ahnenspitzen weiter zu kommen, wobei 
ich mich um der Kürze willen nur die Vorfahren unserer Großeltern erwähne.

Detaillierte Einzelheiten über unsere Vorfahren in Süd-Niedersachsen habe ich im 
Internet dargestellt auf unserer Internetseite
http://home.t-online.de/home/gerd.hillebrecht/homepage.htm

Über einen Datenaustausch würde ich mich freuen.

Gerd Hillebrecht


Ahnenspitzen von Gerd Hillebrechts Großeltern:

HILLEBRECHT, Andreas wurde 1603 (errechnet) geboren. Er starb am 14. Februar 
1685 in Ellierode jetzt Hardegsen. Andreas heiratete Cathrina OTTE.

BEINHORN, Hans Heinrich, wurde 1673 geboren (errechnet). Er starb am 8. Februar 
1747 in Grone und wurde am 9. Februar 1747 in Grone jetzt Göttingen bestattet. 
Er war Dragoner (wahrscheinlich Kavallerieregiment Bothmer, das spätere 
Kurhannoversche 6. Kavallerie Regiment, Dragoner), und heiratete Anne Catharine 
RÜHLING am 11. Juli 1724 in Grone jetzt Göttingen.

HISCHE, Jobst Friedrich war Dragoner beim 8. Chur Hannöverschen Cavallerie 
Regiment und hatte folgenden Sohn: Johann Friedrich HISCHE wurde 30.3.1766 
(errechnet) geboren und starb am 31. März 1829 in Hohnstedt jetzt Northeim.

KNÜPPEL  Hans (genannt CRAAZ DER ÄLTERE) wurde 1575 in Güntersen oder Barterode 
jetzt Adelebsen geboren. Er starb am 24. April 1669 in Barterode. 

Ahnenspitzen von Ursel Marienhagens Großeltern: 
MARIENHAGEN, Johann Heinrich Christian wurde am 24. Juli 1779 in Lüthorst jetzt 
Dassel (Solling) geboren. Er starb am 15. April 1853 in Lüthorst jetzt Dassel 
(Solling). Er war Häusling und Grenadier und heiratete Johanne Marie Karoline 
KÜSTER am 22. April 1804 in Lüthorst jetzt Dassel (Solling). Über seine Eltern 
Christoph MARIENHAGEN (Musketier, wahrscheinlich im Meding'schen Regiment, dem 
späteren 2. Hann. Infanterieregiment in Einbeck) und Marie Charlotte HEINEMEYER 
(geb. Enden?) aus Lüthorst jetzt Dassel (Solling) wissen wir bisher sehr wenig. 
Sie starb 59-jährig am 7. Mai 1791 in Lüthorst.

KERL , Johann Justus wurde am 21. August 1778 in Lütgenhausen jetzt Rhumspringe 
geboren. Er starb am 8. Juli 1832 in Lütgenhausen jetzt Rhumspringe. Johann war 
Ackerknecht und heiratete Johanne Charlotte KOCH am 6. Februar 1798 in 
Lütgenhausen jetzt Rhumspringe.

SCHINKEL,  Christoph Johann wurde um 1756 (errechnet) geboren. Er starb am 25. 
Februar 1827 in Dassensen jetzt Einbeck. Christoph war Gärtner in Rothenkirchen 
und heiratete Engel Christine BUSEMANN am 9. Mai 1790 in Dassensen jetzt 
Einbeck.

KOCH, Johann Martin wurde um 1738 (errechnet) in Einem geboren. Er starb am 2. 
Oktober 1810 in Dassensen jetzt Einbeck. Johann war Schuster und Anbauer und 
heiratete Dorothee Charlotte PABST. 

_____________________________

Dear members of the list,

Since three years I research my and my wife's ancestors. Until today I found 
approx. 1100 persons and 400 couples. The majority of them lived in southern 
Lower Saxony in the former Kingdom of Hannover in an area west and northwest of 
Göttingen, Nörten-Hardenberg, Hardegsen, and Einbeck. The main places are Grone, 
Esebeck, Barterode, Ellierode, Gladebeck, Lütgenrode, Dassensen, Lüthorst, and 
Einbeck, in addition to other places.

I approach the list to find out more on our earliest known ancestors. In order 
not to overload my request I restrict myself to the ancestors of our 
grandparents.

Detailed information on our ancestors in southern Lower Saxony can be found on 
our website
http://home.t-online.de/home/gerd.hillebrecht/homepage.htm

I look forward to an exchange of data.

Gerd Hillebrecht

Earliest ancestors of Gerd Hillebrecht's grandparents:

HILLEBRECHT, Andreas was calculated to be born in 1603. He died on 14 Feb 1685 
in Ellierode now Hardegsen. Andreas was married to Cathrina OTTE.

BEINHORN, Hans Heinrich was born in 1673. He died on 8 Feb 1747 in Grone and was 
buried on 9 Feb 1747 in Grone now Göttingen. He was a dragoon soldier (likely 
with the "Kavallerieregiment Bothmer", later named the "Kurhannoversche 6. 
Kavallerie Regiment, Dragoner"). He married Anne Catharine RÜHLING on 11 Jul 
1724 in Grone now Göttingen:

HISCHE, Jobst Friedrich was a dragoon soldier with the "8. Chur Hannöverschen 
Cavallerie Regiment" and had the following son: Johann Friedrich HISCHE, who was 
born on 30 Mar 1766. He died on 31 Mar 1829 in Hohnstedt. He was buried on 3 Apr 
1829 in Hohnstedt.

KNÜPPEL,  known as (Craaz der Ältere), Hans was born in 1575 in Güntersen now 
Adelebsen. He died on 24 Apr 1669. 

Earliest ancestors of Ursel Marienhagen's grandparents:

MARIENHAGEN, Johann Heinrich Christian was born on 24 Jul 1779 in Lüthorst now 
Dassel (Solling). He died on 15 Apr 1853 in Lüthorst now Dassel (Solling). He 
was a tenant farmer and grenadeer and married Johanne Marie Karoline Küster on 
22 Apr 1804 in Lüthorst now Dassel (Solling). We know little about his parents 
Christoph Marienhagen ("Musketier" in the Meding Regiment, later called the 
Hann. 2nd Infantry Regiment) and Marie Charlotte HEINEMEYER (born ENDEN?) from 
Lüthorst now Dassel (Solling). She died on the 7th of May 1791 in Lüthorst, aged 
59 years.

KERL , Johann Justus was born on 21 Aug 1778 in Lütgenhausen now Rhumspringe. He 
died on 8 Jul 1832 in Lütgenhausen now Rhumspringe. He married Johanne Charlotte 
KOCH on 6 Feb 1798 in Lütgenhausen now Rhumspringe.

SCHINKEL,  Christoph Johann was  calculated to be born in 1756. He died on 25 
Feb 1827 in Dassensen now Einbeck. He was a gardener in Rothenkirchen and 
married Engel Christine BUSEMANN on 9 May 1790 in Dassensen now Einbeck.

KOCH, Johann Martin was calculated to be born in 1738 in Einem. He died on 2 Oct 
1810 in Dassensen now Einbeck. He married Dorothee Charlotte Pabst. 


Email:
gerd.hillebrecht(a)t-online.de
Website:
http://home.t-online.de/home/gerd.hillebrecht/homepage.htm



[HN] Bigboss

Date: 2003/02/04 19:08:35
From: Wolf <WIMispelhorn(a)t-online.de>

Vorsicht , von dieser ominösen Adresse bekam ich kürzlich einen Virus gesandt. Mein anti-Virenpaket hat ihn abgefangen und liqidiert.
mfg
Wolf-Igmar Mispelhorn




Re: [HN] Suche: Kirchenbuch-Archive

Date: 2003/02/04 21:26:21
From: Dietmar Seipt <Seiptd(a)t-online.de>

Hallo Gerhard,

zu Blomberg:
Taufen, Trauungen, Beerdigungen ab 1870 im Pfarramt Blomberg selber
frühere Eintragungen in Ochtersum bzw. Westochtersum - dort ab 1667 mit einigen Lücken

zu Landesbergen:
im Pfarramt Landesbergen ab 1689 mit Lücken bei Trauungen und Beerdigungen

zu Obernkirchen:
ebenfalls im dortigen Pfarramt ab 1620 mit Lücken

Zumindest trafen die obigen Angaben im Jahre 1960 zu (Quelle Die Kirchenbücher in der Ev.-luth. Landeskirche Hannover. Nach meinen bisherigen Erfahrungen dürfte das aber auch noch heute zutreffen.

Beste Grüße aus ELtville am Rhein
Dietmar Seipt

"Gerhard Wahl" <gerhard(a)wahlweb.de> schrieb:
>Hallo Liste,
>
>da das Gebiet um Hannover für mich genealogisches Neuland ist,
>hoffe ich auf Hilfe bei der Beantwortung folgender Frage:
>
>Welche Archive, Kirchenbuchämter oder Gemeinden verwahren
>die Kirchenbücher bzw. Microfiches folgender Orte:
>
>- Blomberg
>- Landesbergen
>- Müsingen
>- Obernkirchen
>- Petershagen
>- Vehlen
>
>Die Informationen auf den Seiten des LKA Hannover sind nicht ganz eindeutig:
>einerseits wird auf die Gemeinden verwiesen, andererseits gibt es einen
>Hinweis
>auf Microfiches im Kirchenbuchamt Hannover...
>
>Grüsse aus der Wetterau
>Gerhard Wahl
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Hannover-L mailing list
>Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
>http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l
>



Re: [HN] Süd-Niedersachsen: Ahnenspitzen Hillebrecht / Marienhagen

Date: 2003/02/04 22:19:37
From: JVHeyse <JVHeyse(a)aol.com>

Vielen Grüßen Gerd!

Meine Familie stamm aus Iber:  Namen Heise (Heysen) und Krause.

John V. Heyse


Re: [HN] Suche: Kirchenbuch-Archive

Date: 2003/02/04 22:27:43
From: Wilfried Petersen <Wilfried.Petersen(a)t-online.de>

Hallo Gerhard,
soweit die Gemeinden zur Landeskirche Hannovers gehören, befinden sich die Microfiches im Stadtkirchenbuchamt Hannover und können dort nach Voranmeldung eingesehen werden. Auch Kopien kann man dort machen.
Das trifft zu für Landesbergen und Obernkirchen.
Müsingen und Vehlen liegen im ehemaligen Schaumburg-Lippe, das eine eigene Landeskirche hat. Da dürfte ggf. Bückeburg in Frage kommen.
Petershagen liegt in Westfalen und gehört damit zu dessen Landeskirche.
Und zu Blomberg erhebt sich die Frage, welches Blomberg denn gemeint ist; es gibt davon 4. Ich nehme an, daß es sich um Blomberg in Lippe handelt. Das gehört zur Landeskirche Lippe-Detmold. Da würde dann wahrscheinlich Detmold der zuständige Ort sein.
Ich hoffe, etwas weiter geholfen zu haben.
MfG
Wilfried Petersen




"Gerhard Wahl" <gerhard(a)wahlweb.de> schrieb:
> Hallo Liste,
> 
> da das Gebiet um Hannover für mich genealogisches Neuland ist,
> hoffe ich auf Hilfe bei der Beantwortung folgender Frage:
> 
> Welche Archive, Kirchenbuchämter oder Gemeinden verwahren
> die Kirchenbücher bzw. Microfiches folgender Orte:
> 
> - Blomberg
> - Landesbergen
> - Müsingen
> - Obernkirchen
> - Petershagen
> - Vehlen
> 
> Die Informationen auf den Seiten des LKA Hannover sind nicht ganz eindeutig:
> einerseits wird auf die Gemeinden verwiesen, andererseits gibt es einen
> Hinweis
> auf Microfiches im Kirchenbuchamt Hannover...
> 
> Grüsse aus der Wetterau
> Gerhard Wahl
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Hannover-L mailing list
> Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l
> 



[HN] ridderbusch

Date: 2003/02/04 23:06:44
From: Juergen Drees <J.Drees(a)gmx.net>

[Weiterleitung, E-Mail "W.A. Ridderbos" <w.a.ridderbos(a)wanadoo.nl> ]

Bericht für Forum.

Ich habe eine Register gemacht von mehr dann 1000 Personen die der
Name
Ridderbusch, Ritterbusch, Ridderbush, Riederbusch, Ridderbosch und
Ridderbos tragen. Geburtsdaten von 1477 zu 2002.

Wer jemand noch Personen mit diesem Name hat, woll ich die gerne auch
aufnehmen!

Mit freundlichem Gruss,

W.A.Ridderbos aus Holland.


Re: [HN] ridderbusch

Date: 2003/02/04 23:50:46
From: Jens Hofstaedt <m-u.hofstaedt(a)worldonline.de>

Hallo,

ich habe noch Rüterbusch. Die kommen aber von Rügen. Kannst du etwas damit
anfangen?

Gruß

Jens



[HN] REICHERT

Date: 2003/02/05 00:00:46
From: CarolSue Robinson <cswr(a)earthlink.net>

Thank you, Maureen, for your interest.  REICHERT is a brand new surname
for me, and the research begins in Germany.  I have nothing other than
Anna Sybilla REICHERT 1733 Albig, Alzey-Worms, who married Johann Matthias CORELL 1741, Offenheimer, Alzey-Worms in 1766. Sybil's parents: Johannes(2) REICHERT 1699, and AnnaChristina SCHMIDT 1694; with 6 children. Your ancestors come along several generations after mine. But, I will make note of them. I really must take this chance to say that I have found a most competent and dependable researcher to assist me....will mention your names to him, as well. :o)

Good luck in your journey, maybe we will cross lines.....
Carol
-------------------

Maureen wrote:

Carol,

I noticed that your are researching REICHERT from Hannover.

I have a name that looks like Minna or Mina REICHERT or REICHART on an old
marriage certificate for her son Fred from Jersey City, Hudson County, New
Jersey.

This woman would have married Johann Friedrich Heinrich "Fritz" GANSBERG and
had two surviving sons, Fred (ca. 1873) and Emil (ca.1876).

She may have emigrated with Fritz from Hannover or Bremen about 1870, or
they may have met, married and lived in NY, NJ, or Baltimore areas after he
emigrated.

Mina or Minna (or Emma?) REICHART or REICHART died sometime between
1876-1882, when Fritz had his first child with his second wife in Hudson
County, NJ.  There is no record I can find of Fritz in Hudson County prior
to 1881.

Maureen Shelly

----- Original Message -----
From: "CarolSue Robinson" <cswr(a)earthlink.net>
To: <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
Sent: Saturday, February 01, 2003 12:17 PM
Subject: [HN] King Wilhelm and NEW surnames


After 30 years of seeking family origins in Germany, our family are so
happy to
be looking for new surnames in the Hannover Province, and Neidersachen
areas.
Here are our surnames (most new):  HÜLSMEYER / HOLTZMEYER, PETRI,
REICHERT, CORELL, MÜLLER / MUELLER, and SAUERESSIG / WEINGARD /
VINYARD, WALTER.

If anyone is doing historical research or timelines: any reference you
can send
and share for a good (english version) website on KING WILHELM of the
early 1850s, would be gratefully received!!  One of our ancestors served
this
King as a bodyguard before emigrating to the U.S. in 1854.

Thank you for being here, and there.
Peace!!      Carol











Re: [HN] Suche: Kirchenbuch-Archive

Date: 2003/02/05 04:17:16
From: Gerhard Wahl <gerhard(a)wahlweb.de>

Dennis, Dietmar und Wilfried,

besten Dank für Eure Hinweise. Jetzt sehe ich schon etwas klarer ;-)

Zur Antwort von Wilfried Petersen:
Leider habe ich außer dem Namen des (Geburts-)Ortes Blomberg keinen Hinweis,
außer daß der Ehemann aus Petershagen kam und die Heirat in Obernkirchen
stattfand. Ist wohl das besagte Blomberg/Lippe. Ich habe allerdings nur zwei
(und nicht vier) Orte mit diesem Namen im Shtetlseeker finden können...

Nächtlicher Gruß in die Runde
Gerhard



[HN] Suche: VAHLSING / VALSING

Date: 2003/02/05 04:26:32
From: Gerhard Wahl <gerhard(a)wahlweb.de>

Guten Morgen Liste,

man soll ja nichts unversucht lassen, deswegen mal ein "Schuß ins Blaue":

Sollte jemand auf folgende Ehen gestoßen sein, so wäre ich für einen Hinweis
äußerst dankbar:

1) Ludwig VAHLSING u. Sophie Kleine
2) Christina VALSING u. Dorothee DAMMEYER

Beide Ehen wurden wohl vor 1845 in (oder um) Landesbergen geschlossen.

Ich bin auch am Austausch aller Vorkommen von VA(H)LSING interessiert!

Allen einen schönen Tag
Gerhard



Re: [HN] Bigboss

Date: 2003/02/05 11:36:01
From: Klaus Mues LG 03 <Klaus-Mues(a)t-online.de>

"Wolf" <WIMispelhorn(a)t-online.de> schrieb:
> Vorsicht , von dieser ominösen Adresse bekam ich kürzlich einen Virus 
> gesandt. Mein anti-Virenpaket hat ihn abgefangen und liqidiert.
> mfg
> Wolf-Igmar Mispelhorn
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Hannover-L mailing list
> Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l
> 
Hallo werter Kollege

Welches Virus kam über "BIGBOSS" ?

Klaus-Mues(a)t-online.de




Re: [HN] Bigboss

Date: 2003/02/05 14:16:58
From: Wolf <WIMispelhorn(a)t-online.de>

hallo Herr Mues, am 1.2.03 um 14.46 : IDSS0LV.exe, wenn ich mich nicht irre, kann aber auch W32.sobig A(a)mm.enc gewesen sein.
mfg
Wolf-igmar Mispelhorn

Klaus Mues LG 03 schrieb:

"Wolf" <WIMispelhorn(a)t-online.de> schrieb:
Vorsicht , von dieser ominösen Adresse bekam ich kürzlich einen Virus gesandt. Mein anti-Virenpaket hat ihn abgefangen und liqidiert.
mfg
Wolf-Igmar Mispelhorn



_______________________________________________
Hannover-L mailing list
Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l

Hallo werter Kollege

Welches Virus kam über "BIGBOSS" ?

Klaus-Mues(a)t-online.de



_______________________________________________
Hannover-L mailing list
Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l




Re: [HN] Suche: Kirchenbuch-Archive

Date: 2003/02/05 18:33:53
From: Wilfried Petersen <Wilfried.Petersen(a)t-online.de>

"Gerhard Wahl" <gerhard(a)wahlweb.de> schrieb:
> 
> Zur Antwort von Wilfried Petersen:
 Ich habe allerdings nur zwei
> (und nicht vier) Orte mit diesem Namen im Shtetlseeker finden können...
> 
Hallo Gerhard,
die beiden anderen sind sehr klein und (heute) nur Ortsteile von:
- Greven (15 km nördl. Münster/Westfalen);
- Meinerzhagen (im Sauerland).
Beide kommen im wöhl für Dich weniger in Betracht.
MfG
Wilfried Petersen


[HN] ridderbusch usw.

Date: 2003/02/05 20:40:16
From: W.A. Ridderbos <w.a.ridderbos(a)wanadoo.nl>

Herr Hostaedt,

Dank für die Information, aber wo liegt Rügen in Deutschland ?

Vielleicht ist Rüterbusch auch für meines Register wichtig.

W.A.Ridderbos aus Holland.


Re: [HN] SCHROEDER / SCHRADER, Bremen to Baltimore 1866 > Indiana

Date: 2003/02/05 20:48:51
From: Sandra Powell <sandrapowell(a)cableone.net>

Gary,
    Thanks for the information re the condition of the ships' lists, and
your other suggestions.  It appears the ships' lists may be a long shot, but
the films have been ordered, so I will check them for my Schroeders.  I
checked the LDS library catalogue for microfilmed Jackson County, Indiana
newspapers, but didn't find any.  Also, the microfilmed church records for
Jackson County have almost nothing related to the Lutheran Church.
    I subscribed to the Jackson County mailing list on Rootsweb and inquired
about where my German Lutherans, living in Vallonia, would have attended
church; however, I haven't received a response.  There were a group of
German immigrants who settled in southeast Indiana in the same time period
that my ancestors arrived.  The group is referred to as the "Venne
immigrants", and Schroeder is one of the surnames listed.  I thought that
might be the answer, but a gentleman from the area checked the list and said
the Schroeder family on the Venne list is not my family.
    Next step is membership in the Jackson County Genealogical Society.
Maybe they will have some information.  This may call for a trip to Indiana
for some personal research.
    I appreciate your help and will keep searching.
Sandra

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary E. Myer" <bruggeym(a)bcpl.net>
To: <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
Sent: Sunday, February 02, 2003 11:46 PM
Subject: Re: [HN] SCHROEDER / SCHRADER, Bremen to Baltimore 1866 > Indiana


Sandra,
One comment on the ships' lists on microfilm:
These lists sat in storage for over 100 years before microfilmers came
along to preserve them.  During that time, the lists were exposed to
rodents, leaky roofs, high-acid storage boxes etc.  It's a wonder any
made it into the 20th century!  I know from my own research as a
professional genealogist (specializing in German-American families) that
some of these lists were found in fragments, and microfilmers had the
unenviable job of trying to reassemble lists before they could be
microfilmed.  Some lists were published in German-language newspapers
(in Baltimore, for example), and from these published lists, we know
that some lists were improperly re-assembled by the microfilmers--e.g.,
date and title page of one list put together with list of names from
another list.  So trying to find your ancestor in the ships' lists is
anything but an "exact science".  I have often told clients, "finding
your ancestor in the ship's list is the frosting on the cake for your
genealogy".  I recommend exhausting every other source in the U.S. when
trying to find place of origin (German-language church records in the
place of settlement, possible obits in local German-language newspapers,
if still extant etc.
I wish you much luck (viel Glück!).
--Gary

Gary E. Myer
37 Colonial Drive
Linthicum Heights, MD 21090
(voice) 410-636-1113 (email) bruggeym(a)bcpl.net
I Cor 13:4 (from "The Message", Eugene H. Peterson's transl. of NT)




_______________________________________________
Hannover-L mailing list
Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
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Re: [HN] ridderbusch usw.

Date: 2003/02/05 21:22:53
From: Wilfried Petersen <Wilfried.Petersen(a)t-online.de>

Hallo Herr Ridderbos,
Rügen ist die grösste deutsche Insel, liegt in der Ostsee
und gehört zu Pommern (heutiges Bundesland Mecklenburg-Vorpommern).
Gruß
Wilfried Petersen

"W.A. Ridderbos" <w.a.ridderbos(a)wanadoo.nl> schrieb:
> Herr Hostaedt,
> 
> Dank für die Information, aber wo liegt Rügen in Deutschland ?
> 



[HN] ERYTHROPEL/OELFFEN

Date: 2003/02/05 21:35:09
From: Klaus Riecken <Klaus.Riecken(a)t-online.de>

Liebe Mitstreiter in Niedersachsen,

In der Zeitung zwischen Elbe und Weser 9/1935 gibt es einen Bericht über:

Regimentschirurgus Johann Friedrich Jakob ERYTHROPEL, der erste Arzt in Basbeck

Der ausführliche Lebenslauf enthält auch Anmerkungen:
so u.a.:
Über den Pastor Oelfen, der als Feldprediger des hannoverschen Heeres mit in den Türkenkrieg zog, und über diesen Türkenkrieg selbst, berichtet "Niedersachsen", 1911 Nr.2, ausführlich.

Mit dieser Lieteraturangabe gibt es den Bericht nicht.
Kann jemand weiter helfen?
Hat jemand über diesen Pastor und dem Türkenkrieg weiterführendes Material?
Um Rückmeldung wird gebeten.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen
Klaus Riecken
www.Riecken-online.de



[HN] Re: ERYTHROPEL/OELFFEN

Date: 2003/02/05 21:42:59
From: Klaus Riecken <Klaus.Riecken(a)t-online.de>

  Liebe Mitstreiter in Niedersachsen,

  In der Zeitung zwischen Elbe und Weser 9/1935 gibt es einen Bericht über:

  Regimentschirurgus Johann Friedrich Jakob ERYTHROPEL, der erste Arzt in Basbeck

  Der ausführliche Lebenslauf enthält auch Anmerkungen:
  so u.a.:
  Über den Pastor Oelfen, der als Feldprediger des hannoverschen Heeres mit in den Türkenkrieg zog, und über diesen Türkenkrieg selbst, berichtet "Niedersachsen", 1911 Nr.2, ausführlich.

  Mit dieser Lieteraturangabe gibt es den Bericht nicht.
  Kann jemand weiter helfen?
  Hat jemand über diesen Pastor und dem Türkenkrieg weiterführendes Material?
  Um Rückmeldung wird gebeten.

  Mit freundlichen Grüßen
  Klaus Riecken
  www.Riecken-online.de



Re: [HN] ridderbusch usw.

Date: 2003/02/05 23:23:11
From: Jens Hofstaedt <m-u.hofstaedt(a)worldonline.de>

Hallo,

Rügen ist die größte deutsche Insel und liegt im Osten von Deutschland in
der Ostsee (Vorpommern).

Gruß aus Köln

Jens Hofstaedt



[HN] Stöckman/stockman

Date: 2003/02/06 09:10:41
From: Kristian Stockmann <kristian.stockmann(a)pp.inet.fi>

Meine Stockmann Familie war etwa 300 Jahre Förstern in Lübecks Wäldern. Unser erster in der Familienchronik erfasster Vorfahr Franz Stockmann/Stöckmann kam ca. 1701 nach Ratzeburg. Ein Kaufvertrag von 1701 ist gefunden in welchem es steht ”Frantz Stockman, von Hanckensbüttel aus dem Lande Lüneburg“

In Steimke in Hankensbüttel, Kreis Gifhorn finden man 1669-1687 zwei Kötner Hanss Stöckman und Johann Stöckman. Aus dem Geburts- und Taufbuch von der Evang.-luth St. Pankratius-Kirche zu Hankensbüttel von 1678 bis 1808 finden man in Steimke:
Jochim Stöckmans Kinder:
-       Jochim * 1681 (Pate Jochim Stöckman zu Stöcken)
-       Catharina * 1683 (Pate Magdal Stöckmanss zu St.)
- Hinrich * 13.12.1687 (Pate Franss Stöckman zu St.) (cop. 28.9.1710, + 1760)
-       Anna Dorothea * 12.1.1690
-       Christoffer 14.11.1692

Hans Stöckmans Kind:
-       Johan * 25.11.1684

Jürgen Stöckmans Kinder:
-       Jürgen * 1681
-       Hans Baltzer * 1683
-       Margreta Urzel * 26.7.1681 (Patin Ursel Stöckmans von St.)

Ich währe sehr dankbar für alle Information von Familien Namens Stöckman/Stockman aus Hankensbüttel.

Kristian Stockmann
e-mail: kristian.stockmann(a)pp.inet.fi





[HN] Familie Stockmann

Date: 2003/02/06 20:27:57
From: W. Guenther <WolfGuentherhh(a)web.de>

Hallo,


gerade las ich die Nachricht über die Familie Stockmann.Leider habe ich keine
Informationen über diese Familie aus Hankensbüttel.
Vielleicht aber doch interessant: aus meiner weiteren Verwandtschaft
heiratete Elsabe Catharina Dorothea Tanck, geboren am 27. Nov. 1777
in Neukirchen bei Oldenburg/Holstein im Jahre 1805 den Förster
Georg Franz Stockmann aus Cronsforde.Handelt es sich um diese
Familie ?
 

Viele Grüße aus Hamburg


Wolf Günther 


Re: [HN] Familie Stockmann

Date: 2003/02/06 20:59:22
From: Kristian Stockmann <kristian.stockmann(a)pp.inet.fi>

Hallo,

Ja es handelt sich um diese Familie. Ich habe Tafeln von der ganze Familie gemacht. Die Tafeln sindt in Swedish. Ich lage die Tafeln von diesem Familien-Zweig bei.

Tabell 5
IV. Mathias Franz Georg Stockmann (far Johann Adolf Stockmann, tabell 3). Född 13.8.1777 i Behlendorf. Förster i Cronsforde efter brodern Johan Adolf Ernst. Död 31.3.1828 i Cronsforde. - Gift med Catharina Dorothea Tanck.
V. Barn:
Margaretha Catharina Stockmann. Född 21.12.1811. - Gift 1837 med Jochim Hinrich Fischer. Fuhrmann (åkare). Franz Heinrich Wilhelm Stockmann. Född 1.4.1819 i Cronsforde. Död 8.1.1896. Tabell 6.
Tabell 6
V. Franz Heinrich Wilhelm Stockmann (far Mathias Franz Georg Stockmann, tabell 5). Född 1.4.1819 i Cronsforde. Lantbrukare i Cronsforde. Död 8.1.1896. - Gift 1:o 1844 med n.N.. - Gift 2:o 29.6.1853 med N.N. - Gift 3:o 1862 med Maria Henriette Caroline Reichert. Född 6.5.1824.
VI. Barn:
1: Johanna Catharina Elisabeth Stockmann. Född 1.2.1845. - Gift 25.5.1877 med August Ludwig Christian Scheffler. Sergeant.
1: Georg Andreas Adolf Stockmann. Född 1.3.1850. Tabell 7.
1: Georg Ludwig Heinrich Wilhelm Stockmann. Född 21.11.1852.
2: Elisabeth Maria Lisette Stockmann. Född 30.6.1856. Död 12.3.1872.
2: Johannes Georg Julius Stockmann. Född 15.6.1862. Död 20.1.1863.
3: Fritze Henriette Amalie Stockmann. Född 15.12.1866. Död 17.5.1884.
Tabell 7
VI. Georg Andreas Adolf Stockmann (far Franz Heinrich Wilhelm Stockmann, tabell 6). Född 1.3.1850. Murare i Lübeck. - Gift 19.7.1874 med Dorothea Margaretha Henriette Bohnhoff. Född 12.2.1847 i Grömitz i Holsteinö. Död 27.4.1892.
VII. Barn:
Johanna Wilhelmina Maria Betty Henriette Stockmann. Född 31.12.1874.

Ich währe sehr dankbar für mehr Information von dieser Zweig und von der Familie Tanck.

Mit besten Grüssen,

Kristian Stockmann
At 20:33 6.2.2003 +0100, you wrote:


Hallo,


gerade las ich die Nachricht über die Familie Stockmann.Leider habe ich keine
Informationen über diese Familie aus Hankensbüttel.
Vielleicht aber doch interessant: aus meiner weiteren Verwandtschaft
heiratete Elsabe Catharina Dorothea Tanck, geboren am 27. Nov. 1777
in Neukirchen bei Oldenburg/Holstein im Jahre 1805 den Förster
Georg Franz Stockmann aus Cronsforde.Handelt es sich um diese
Familie ?


Viele Grüße aus Hamburg


Wolf Günther

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Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
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Re: [HN] ridderbusch

Date: 2003/02/06 23:35:25
From: hrs <hrs(a)hist.de>

Hallo!

Beim Namen Rüterbusch habe ich aufgehorcht.

Ich habe für eine amerikanische Auftraggeberin umfangreiche
Forschungen zu dieser Rügener Familie durchgeführt und konnte
die Familie bis zum Töpfer Jacob Rüterbusch zurückverfolgen, der
zum ersten Mal 1662 im Sagarder Kirchenbuch erscheint.

Ich habe umfangreiche Unterlagen zu verschiedenen Zweigen der
Familie. Bei Interesse wäre ich gerne bereit diese Informationen
auszutauschen. Meine Auftraggeber würden sich sicher auch über
einen neuen "Verwandten" freuen!

e-mail bitte direkt an mich!

Mit freundlichen Grüßen,

Jens Mueller-Koppe


Jens Mueller-Koppe
Historical Research Services (HRS)
www.hist.de

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
HANOVER CENSUS 1852
www.hist.de/edition-hist(e).html
Hanover Location List
->www.hist.de/Hanover-Location-List.htm
Hanover Surname Index
->www.hist.de/Hanover-Surname-Index.htm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Schanzendorfer Str. 9, D - 28307 Bremen, Germany
Fax: +49 421 4842527
Tel: +49 421 4842530


[HN] Familie Stockmann

Date: 2003/02/07 00:43:31
From: W. Guenther <WolfGuentherhh(a)web.de>

Hallo Kristian,

zur Familie Stockann habe ich leider keine weiteren Informationen.
Über die Familie Tanck kann ich noch etwas berichten:

Elsabe Catharina Dorothea Tanck war die Tochter des Schusters
zu Neukirchen Jochim Friedrich Tanck und der Susanna Dorothea
Tanck, geborene Kröger, getauft 1. März 1745 in Hansühn,gestorben  
am 16. März 1812 in Neukirchen.
Sie war eine eheliche Tochter des gräfl. Koches und Hausverwalters
Bendix Kröger,gestorben 1780, und der Abel Kröger, geborene Möller,
gestorben 1793.
Das Ehepaar Tanck hatte noch weitere Kinder, 

 
Viele Grüße

Wolf Günther


 


[HN] Familie Keitel

Date: 2003/02/07 00:54:09
From: Jens Hofstaedt <m-u.hofstaedt(a)worldonline.de>

Hallo Liste,

ich bin auf der Suche nach Geschwistern meines Urgroßvater. Er hieß Gerog Albert Keitel und wurde 1885 in Hannover geboren. Sein Vater war Bahnhofsarbeiter und stammt aus Thüringen. Seine Mutter war eine geborene Brüning und kommt aus dem Raum Elze bei Gronau. Er war katholisch, sie evangelisch. Ich bin für jeden Hinweis dankbar.

Gruß

Jens


RE: [HN] Süd-Niedersachsen: Ahnenspitzen Hillebrecht / Marienhagen

Date: 2003/02/07 04:41:09
From: Al and Marjorie Rosendahl <mrosend(a)ties.k12.mn.us>

Hello!  My Krause was born 13 March 1838 in Schonfeld, Arnswalde district
near Frankfurt on der Oder.  Emigrated to USA in 1866. Do you know anything
of this?
Marjorie in USA

> -----Original Message-----
> From: hannover-l-admin(a)genealogy.net
> [mailto:hannover-l-admin(a)genealogy.net]On Behalf Of JVHeyse(a)aol.com
> Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 3:20 PM
> To: hannover-l(a)genealogy.net
> Subject: Re: [HN] Süd-Niedersachsen: Ahnenspitzen Hillebrecht /
> Marienhagen
>
>
> Vielen Grüßen Gerd!
>
> Meine Familie stamm aus Iber:  Namen Heise (Heysen) und Krause.
>
> John V. Heyse
>
> _______________________________________________
> Hannover-L mailing list
> Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l
>



Re: [HN] SCHROEDER / SCHRADER? Any in St. Louis? 1860?

Date: 2003/02/07 07:29:56
From: Cactus Flower <barbie8674(a)hotmail.com>





Dear Sandra,

I know this is probobly no help at all because my ancestors were in St. Louis.. a marriage record entry (catholic).

Shrine of St. Joseph Church. 4 Sept 1860

Eadene Franciscus Grotepehler filims Jodoci?[Jacob] Schmalhorst et Ida Kuhlage una cune Theresia Bismeier fili Christian Bismeier et Margaretha Rehmschnier coram nee? ? scripto et testibus Petro Kuhlage et. Maria Schroeder. Fr. Joseph Weber

Father Joseph Weber was instumental, along with the people were instumental in building the "Alter of Answered Prayers" at the Church.

A short extraction about the Alter.

http://www.shrineofstjoseph.org/miracles

The promise. Father Joseph Weber, pastor of the parish and superior of the Jesuit community at St. Joseph’s, gathered the parishioners together on Sunday morning. They all made a solemn vow to God, that if through the intercession of St. Joseph the parish were spared further deaths from cholera, they would in thanksgiving erect a suitable monument in honor of St. Joseph, patron of the parish church. To this end the parishioners pledged an initial four thousand dollars, a considerable sum in those days.

The miracle. To the amazement of the pastor, his assistants, religious Brothers, and all the parishioners, their prayers of fervent petition was heard. Not one member of all the families who had signed the vow and the pledge was stricken with cholera after that day. Miracle or not, these are the facts, testified to in the old yellow-edged documents in the church’s archives.

My emslander/Lower Saxon ancestors were members of this catholic church. It was for the most part a German speaking parrish with alot of immigrants from the Kingdom of Hannover to St. Louis, Missouri and vacinity.








From: "Sandra Powell" <sandrapowell(a)cableone.net>
Reply-To: hannover-l(a)genealogy.net
To: <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>, <bruggeym(a)bcpl.net>
Subject: Re: [HN] SCHROEDER / SCHRADER, Bremen to Baltimore 1866 > Indiana
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 13:52:27 -0500

Gary,
    Thanks for the information re the condition of the ships' lists, and
your other suggestions. It appears the ships' lists may be a long shot, but
the films have been ordered, so I will check them for my Schroeders.  I
checked the LDS library catalogue for microfilmed Jackson County, Indiana
newspapers, but didn't find any.  Also, the microfilmed church records for
Jackson County have almost nothing related to the Lutheran Church.
I subscribed to the Jackson County mailing list on Rootsweb and inquired
about where my German Lutherans, living in Vallonia, would have attended
church; however, I haven't received a response.  There were a group of
German immigrants who settled in southeast Indiana in the same time period
that my ancestors arrived.  The group is referred to as the "Venne
immigrants", and Schroeder is one of the surnames listed.  I thought that
might be the answer, but a gentleman from the area checked the list and said
the Schroeder family on the Venne list is not my family.
    Next step is membership in the Jackson County Genealogical Society.
Maybe they will have some information.  This may call for a trip to Indiana
for some personal research.
    I appreciate your help and will keep searching.
Sandra

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary E. Myer" <bruggeym(a)bcpl.net>
To: <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
Sent: Sunday, February 02, 2003 11:46 PM
Subject: Re: [HN] SCHROEDER / SCHRADER, Bremen to Baltimore 1866 > Indiana


Sandra,
One comment on the ships' lists on microfilm:
These lists sat in storage for over 100 years before microfilmers came
along to preserve them.  During that time, the lists were exposed to
rodents, leaky roofs, high-acid storage boxes etc.  It's a wonder any
made it into the 20th century!  I know from my own research as a
professional genealogist (specializing in German-American families) that
some of these lists were found in fragments, and microfilmers had the
unenviable job of trying to reassemble lists before they could be
microfilmed.  Some lists were published in German-language newspapers
(in Baltimore, for example), and from these published lists, we know
that some lists were improperly re-assembled by the microfilmers--e.g.,
date and title page of one list put together with list of names from
another list.  So trying to find your ancestor in the ships' lists is
anything but an "exact science".  I have often told clients, "finding
your ancestor in the ship's list is the frosting on the cake for your
genealogy".  I recommend exhausting every other source in the U.S. when
trying to find place of origin (German-language church records in the
place of settlement, possible obits in local German-language newspapers,
if still extant etc.
I wish you much luck (viel Glück!).
--Gary

Gary E. Myer
37 Colonial Drive
Linthicum Heights, MD 21090
(voice) 410-636-1113 (email) bruggeym(a)bcpl.net
I Cor 13:4 (from "The Message", Eugene H. Peterson's transl. of NT)




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http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l


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Re: [HN] SCHROEDER / SCHRADER? Any in St. Louis? 1860?

Date: 2003/02/07 07:41:20
From: Cactus Flower <barbie8674(a)hotmail.com>

Dear Sandra,

Eeks! I didn't read your post very well. You are looking for ancestors of the Lutheran/Evangelical Faith.

Were all of your ancestors Lutheran? I do have a family line that was both Lutheran and Catholic. A few actually.

Barb






From: "Cactus Flower" <barbie8674(a)hotmail.com>
Reply-To: hannover-l(a)genealogy.net
To: hannover-l(a)genealogy.net
Subject: Re: [HN] SCHROEDER / SCHRADER? Any in St. Louis? 1860?
Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2003 00:29:55 -0600






Dear Sandra,

I know this is probobly no help at all because my ancestors were in St. Louis.. a marriage record entry (catholic).

Shrine of St. Joseph Church. 4 Sept 1860

Eadene Franciscus Grotepehler filims Jodoci?[Jacob] Schmalhorst et Ida Kuhlage una cune Theresia Bismeier fili Christian Bismeier et Margaretha Rehmschnier coram nee? ? scripto et testibus Petro Kuhlage et. Maria Schroeder. Fr. Joseph Weber

Father Joseph Weber was instumental, along with the people were instumental in building the "Alter of Answered Prayers" at the Church.

A short extraction about the Alter.

http://www.shrineofstjoseph.org/miracles

The promise. Father Joseph Weber, pastor of the parish and superior of the Jesuit community at St. Joseph’s, gathered the parishioners together on Sunday morning. They all made a solemn vow to God, that if through the intercession of St. Joseph the parish were spared further deaths from cholera, they would in thanksgiving erect a suitable monument in honor of St. Joseph, patron of the parish church. To this end the parishioners pledged an initial four thousand dollars, a considerable sum in those days.

The miracle. To the amazement of the pastor, his assistants, religious Brothers, and all the parishioners, their prayers of fervent petition was heard. Not one member of all the families who had signed the vow and the pledge was stricken with cholera after that day. Miracle or not, these are the facts, testified to in the old yellow-edged documents in the church’s archives.

My emslander/Lower Saxon ancestors were members of this catholic church. It was for the most part a German speaking parrish with alot of immigrants from the Kingdom of Hannover to St. Louis, Missouri and vacinity.








From: "Sandra Powell" <sandrapowell(a)cableone.net>
Reply-To: hannover-l(a)genealogy.net
To: <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>, <bruggeym(a)bcpl.net>
Subject: Re: [HN] SCHROEDER / SCHRADER, Bremen to Baltimore 1866 > Indiana
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 13:52:27 -0500

Gary,
    Thanks for the information re the condition of the ships' lists, and
your other suggestions. It appears the ships' lists may be a long shot, but
the films have been ordered, so I will check them for my Schroeders.  I
checked the LDS library catalogue for microfilmed Jackson County, Indiana
newspapers, but didn't find any.  Also, the microfilmed church records for
Jackson County have almost nothing related to the Lutheran Church.
I subscribed to the Jackson County mailing list on Rootsweb and inquired
about where my German Lutherans, living in Vallonia, would have attended
church; however, I haven't received a response.  There were a group of
German immigrants who settled in southeast Indiana in the same time period
that my ancestors arrived.  The group is referred to as the "Venne
immigrants", and Schroeder is one of the surnames listed.  I thought that
might be the answer, but a gentleman from the area checked the list and said
the Schroeder family on the Venne list is not my family.
    Next step is membership in the Jackson County Genealogical Society.
Maybe they will have some information. This may call for a trip to Indiana
for some personal research.
    I appreciate your help and will keep searching.
Sandra

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary E. Myer" <bruggeym(a)bcpl.net>
To: <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
Sent: Sunday, February 02, 2003 11:46 PM
Subject: Re: [HN] SCHROEDER / SCHRADER, Bremen to Baltimore 1866 > Indiana


Sandra,
One comment on the ships' lists on microfilm:
These lists sat in storage for over 100 years before microfilmers came
along to preserve them.  During that time, the lists were exposed to
rodents, leaky roofs, high-acid storage boxes etc.  It's a wonder any
made it into the 20th century!  I know from my own research as a
professional genealogist (specializing in German-American families) that
some of these lists were found in fragments, and microfilmers had the
unenviable job of trying to reassemble lists before they could be
microfilmed.  Some lists were published in German-language newspapers
(in Baltimore, for example), and from these published lists, we know
that some lists were improperly re-assembled by the microfilmers--e.g.,
date and title page of one list put together with list of names from
another list.  So trying to find your ancestor in the ships' lists is
anything but an "exact science".  I have often told clients, "finding
your ancestor in the ship's list is the frosting on the cake for your
genealogy".  I recommend exhausting every other source in the U.S. when
trying to find place of origin (German-language church records in the
place of settlement, possible obits in local German-language newspapers,
if still extant etc.
I wish you much luck (viel Glück!).
--Gary

Gary E. Myer
37 Colonial Drive
Linthicum Heights, MD 21090
(voice) 410-636-1113 (email) bruggeym(a)bcpl.net
I Cor 13:4 (from "The Message", Eugene H. Peterson's transl. of NT)




_______________________________________________
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Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l


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[HN] Das alte Europa und Rumsfeld´s Vorfahren

Date: 2003/02/07 12:14:16
From: Reinhard J. Freytag <Reinhard.Freytag(a)t-online.de>

Ich finde, folgendes passt in unsere Genealogie-Runde:


Die Vorfahren von Herrn Rumsfeld (Kann ein Kriegsminister einen besseren Namen haben?) stammen aus dem alten Europa, Norddeutschland. Sein Ururgroßvater ist 1866 mit 6 Kindern in die USA ausgewandert, seine Genalogie ist bekannt. Als Herr Rumsfeld in der 70er noch Nato-Botschafter in Europa war und auch danach in seiner ersten Zeit als Verteidigungsminister unter Vater Bush kam er regelmäßig in den Ort zu den dort noch lebenden Rumsfelds zu Besuch. Das wird er heute ungern hören, ist aber belegt.
-- 
Mit freundlichen Grüßen aus Göttingen
Reinhard J. Freytag


Re: [HN] Familie Stockmann

Date: 2003/02/07 14:33:42
From: Ulrich Wendt <ulrich.wendt(a)gmx.de>

Hallo,

> Ja es handelt sich um diese Familie. Ich habe Tafeln von der ganze Familie
> 
> gemacht. Die Tafeln sindt in Swedish. Ich lage die Tafeln von diesem 
> Familien-Zweig bei.
> 
> Tabell 5
> 
> Kristian Stockmann
> At 20:33 6.2.2003 +0100, you wrote:
> 
> 

gibt es vielleicht auch Informationen über einen Paul Friedrich Stockmann,
der um 1681 geboren sein müsste? An seinem späteren Wohnort im nördlichen
Schleswig-Holstein ist seine Geburt nicht zu finden. Das Geburtsdatum ist
errechnet aus seinem Sterbeeintrag im Kirchenbuch von Norderbrarup.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen,

Ulrich Wendt



Re: [HN] Familie Stockmann

Date: 2003/02/07 15:26:33
From: WBL435 <WBL435(a)aol.com>

Hi,
I noticed that your surname is "Wendt".  My grandfather on my mothers side 
was August Wendt.  His mother and his brothers came to America in the period 
of 1855 to 1860.  They came from somewhere in the Kingdom of Hannover.  I 
don't know the name of the town where they came from but believe it was near 
the Duchy of Braunschweig.  Any suggestions would be appreciated.  I don't 
read or speak German but wish I did.  Take care and have a good day.
Thank you,
Bill Leichter 


Re: [HN] Das alte Europa und Rumsfeld´s Vorfahren

Date: 2003/02/07 15:50:17
From: Boyken & Boyken Partners <frisian(a)netins.net>

Sehr geehrter Freitag,

würden Sie bitte den Listenmitgliedern die Namen des Ururgroßvaters, des
Urgroßvaters, des Großvaters des Herrn  Donald Rumsfeld  nennen. Danke.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen
Hans-Georg Boyken
Titonka, IA 50480-0269, USA
_____________________________________
----- Original Message -----
From: "Reinhard J. Freytag" <Reinhard.Freytag(a)t-online.de>
To: "Niedersachsen(a)genealogy.net" <FamNord(a)genealogy.net>
Cc: <Hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
Sent: Friday, February 07, 2003 5:12 AM
Subject: [HN] Das alte Europa und Rumsfeld´s Vorfahren


Ich finde, folgendes passt in unsere Genealogie-Runde:


Die Vorfahren von Herrn Rumsfeld (Kann ein Kriegsminister einen besseren
Namen haben?) stammen aus dem alten Europa, Norddeutschland. Sein
Ururgroßvater ist 1866 mit 6 Kindern in die USA ausgewandert, seine
Genalogie ist bekannt. Als Herr Rumsfeld in der 70er noch Nato-Botschafter
in Europa war und auch danach in seiner ersten Zeit als
Verteidigungsminister unter Vater Bush kam er regelmäßig in den Ort zu den
dort noch lebenden Rumsfelds zu Besuch. Das wird er heute ungern hören, ist
aber belegt.
--
Mit freundlichen Grüßen aus Göttingen
Reinhard J. Freytag

_______________________________________________
Hannover-L mailing list
Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l



Re: [HN] Familie Stockmann

Date: 2003/02/07 15:51:29
From: Kristian Stockmann <kristian.stockmann(a)pp.inet.fi>

Nein, leider habe ich nicht Information über Paul Friedrich Stockmann.

Kristian Stockmann
At 14:33 7.2.2003 +0100, you wrote:
Hallo,

> Ja es handelt sich um diese Familie. Ich habe Tafeln von der ganze Familie
>
> gemacht. Die Tafeln sindt in Swedish. Ich lage die Tafeln von diesem
> Familien-Zweig bei.
>
> Tabell 5
>
> Kristian Stockmann
> At 20:33 6.2.2003 +0100, you wrote:
>
>

gibt es vielleicht auch Informationen über einen Paul Friedrich Stockmann,
der um 1681 geboren sein müsste? An seinem späteren Wohnort im nördlichen
Schleswig-Holstein ist seine Geburt nicht zu finden. Das Geburtsdatum ist
errechnet aus seinem Sterbeeintrag im Kirchenbuch von Norderbrarup.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen,

Ulrich Wendt


_______________________________________________
Hannover-L mailing list
Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l




[HN] (no subject)

Date: 2003/02/07 19:16:54
From: E.B.G.W. Ockels <e.b.g.wockels(a)freeler.nl>


[HN] Görtz-Velhagen-Riemann-Devengot-Winter-Witten-Ingemeier-Kühling-Hausmann

Date: 2003/02/07 20:55:21
From: CHaupt <chg.C.Haupt(a)t-online.de>

Hello all,

Ich habe gerade für meine Homepage eine neue Familienseite erstellt (wird ab dem nächsten update zu finden sein). Darunter sind einige Familienmitglieder, die in hannöverschen Landen gelebt haben. Die RIEMANNs sind im 18. Jahrhundert nach England gegangen.

I have just written a new family page for my homepage. There are some members, who have lived in Hannover (Electorate, Kingdom and Province). The RIEMANNs moved in the 18th century to England.

Die GÖRTZ Linie habe ich bisher bis 1633 verfolgen können. Von den anderen Familien suche ich insbesondere nach den Nachkommen, denn sie sind alle GÖRTZ Nachkommen.

Until today I have researched the GOERTZ family back to 1633. Now, I am searching for the descendants of the other famiiles, because they are all GOERTZ relatives, too.


(21c) Emilie Görtz, * 1836, + 1897, oo Kaufmann WITTEN in Helmstedt
(21e) Ernst Görtz, * 1841, + 1891, oo Magdalene KORTH
	(21e1) Elsa Görtz, * 1873, oo MANNSFELD in Leipzig
	(21e2) Otto Görtz, * 1875, Rechtsanwalt in Leipzig
(21f) Luise Görtz, * 1843, + 1903, oo1 INGEMEIER in Hannover, oo2 WIEGAND

(42f) Emil Ernst Görtz, * 10.06.1806, + 1888, oo Amalia KÜHLING
	(42f1) Carl Görtz, * 24.01.1843, + 1917, Arzt, oo (21h) Rose GÖRTZ
	(42f2) Charlotte Görtz, * 1839 in Velber, + 1902 in Königslutter
	(42f3) Amalie Görtz, * 1846

(84b) Johanne Sophie Christiane Görtz, * 1754, oo ... RIEMANN in Wolfenbüttel
	(84b1) Carl Julius Anton Riemann, * 1783, + 1785
	(84b2) Ludwig Heinrich Riemann, * 1784, oo Sophie DEVENGOT
		(84b2.1) Marie Wolfine Karoline Riemann, * 1801 in Windsor
		(84b2.2) Amalie August Isabelle Riemann, * 1804
		(84b2.3) Henri Riemann, * 1810, + 1874, oo ...
			(84b2.3.1) Louis Riemann, * 1841 in Windsor
			(84b2.3.2) Jan Henry Riemann, oo Sarah ...
				(84b2.3.2.1) Eveline Riemann, * 1881
				(84b2.3.2.2) Claude Riemann
				(84b2.3.2.3) Norman Riemann
				(84b2.3.2.4) Fred Riemann
				(84b2.3.2.5) Sybil Riemann
			(84b2.3.3) Sannah Riemann
			(84b2.3.4) Sophie Riemann
			(84b2.3.5) Fred Riemann
		(84b2.4) Auguste Elisabeth Herbertha Riemann, * 1813
		(84b2.5) Sophie Aurora Jomima Riemann, * 1814
	(84b3) Johann Christian Heinrich Riemann, * 1784,  + 1841
	(84b4) Marie Sophie Henriette Riemann, * 1786, oo ... HAUSMANN
	(84b5) Dorothea Christiane Sophie Riemann, *1788
	(84b6) Carl Friedrich Heinrich Riemann, * 1790, + 1819
(84d) Johann Friedrich Heinrich Görtz, * 08.10.1757 in Wolfenbüttel, + 1806, Pastor, oo ...
	(84d1) Jacob Heinrich Christian Görtz, * 1785 in Hannover, + 1845
	(84d2) Johanne Sophie Eberhardine Görtz, * 1789, oo Kaufmann HART in Giessen
	(84d3) August Friedrich Wilhelm Görtz, * 1798
	(84d4) ... jung gestorben

(168a) Adelheid Marie Görtz, * 1716
(168b) Jacob Heinrich Görtz, * 1718 in Aurich, + 1789 in Wolfenbüttel, Hoftapezierer, oo (169) Anna Marie WINTER, * um 1740
(168c) Marie Sophie Görtz, * 1720
(168d) Benedicta Dorothea, * 1722
(168e) Marie Görtz, * 1724
(168f) Johann Gottfried Görtz, * 1726 in Wolfenbüttel

(336a) Heinrich Görtz, * 1686 in Wolfenbüttel
(336b) Johann Christoph Görtz, *1686 in Vienenburg, + 1735 in Wolfenbüttel, Hoftapezierer, oo (337) Falesse VELHAGEN, * um 1690 in Aurich, + 1753

(672) Carl Görtz, * 1633 in Aurich


Christoph Haupt


-- 
Haupt'S finden&suchen
Christoph Haupt
Sehnder Str. 28
D-30559 Hannover
TEL: +511 522313
FAX: +511 8793208
eMail: chg.C.Haupt(a)t-online.de
www.haupt-researcher.de

Re: [HN] Görtz-Velhagen-Riemann-Devengot-W inter-Witten-Ingemeier-Kühling-Hausmann

Date: 2003/02/08 04:57:18
From: Gary E. Myer <bruggeym(a)bcpl.net>

Herr Haupt,

Ist es möglich, dass diese RIEMANNs über England weiter nach Baltimore auswanderten? Eine Familie RIEMAN(n) taucht in der frühen Geschichte Baltimores auf (circa 1800?) und wurde zu einer der angesehenen Familien deutscher Herkunft in dieser Hafenstadt. (Sie sind nicht mit mir verwandt, aber der Name ist mir oft in meinen Forschungen aufgefallen.)

--Gary


--
Gary E. Myer
37 Colonial Drive
Linthicum Heights, MD 21090
(voice) 410-636-1113 (email) bruggeym(a)bcpl.net
I Cor 13:4 (from "The Message", Eugene H. Peterson's transl. of NT)





[HN] Rügen

Date: 2003/02/08 17:28:15
From: W.A. Ridderbos <w.a.ridderbos(a)wanadoo.nl>

Herr Hofstaedt und Herr Petersen Dank für die Information 
betreff Insel Rügen!

Ich habe Rügen jetzt können finden im Atlas.

W.A.Ridderbos aus Holland.


[HN] old newsletter of 1997-

Date: 2003/02/08 17:48:55
From: gutt morgan <guttmorgan(a)hotmail.com>


I have been reading arrchives. Do you still have a subscriber Helmut Hoffmeister or hoffmeister(a)muenster.net. There can only be one Nahrendof and some his family posted came from this area. I hope to locate him. My email came back.
Any information on him would be greatly appreciated.
I am currently reading all archives to see if he posted again.
I hope you can help.
Meyer



_________________________________________________________________
The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail



Re: [HN] Rügen

Date: 2003/02/08 19:44:48
From: Werner Honkomp <Werner.Honkomp(a)t-online.de>

Unter dieser URL gibt es Informationen über die Insel Rügen:

www.ruegen.de

auch in English

> Herr Hofstaedt und Herr Petersen Dank für die Information
> betreff Insel Rügen!

> Ich habe Rügen jetzt können finden im Atlas.

> W.A.Ridderbos aus Holland.

> _______________________________________________
> Hannover-L mailing list
> Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l



[HN] Copyright

Date: 2003/02/08 19:44:48
From: Werner Honkomp <Werner.Honkomp(a)t-online.de>

This is a special question to German members regarding copyright in Germany.

Liebe Listenteilnehmer,
die Frage des Urheberrechts ist immer wieder spannend. Daher hätte ich gerne einen kundigen Rat zu folgendem "konstruierten" Beispiel:

Zwei Freunde betreiben seit Jahren Familienforschung. Dabei werden natürlich auch Daten untereinander ausgetauscht. Wie üblich sind bei dem Austausch der Daten keine Auflagen erteilt worden (z.B. hier kannst meine Daten einsehen Du darfst diese aber nicht weiter verwenden).
Irgendwann ist einer von beiden zu einem gewissen Abschluss gekommen und fasst die Ergebnisse in einer Broschüre oder Buch zusammen. Natürlich sind in diesem Buch auch Daten enthalten die von dem Freund zur Verfügung gestellt wurden.
Ein Hinweis auf die Quellen der Daten ist im Buch nicht enthalten.

Wie der Freund davon erfährt wird er neidisch und versucht mit allen Mitteln die Entstehung diese Buches zu verhindern, da er meint, es handelt sich zum Teil um "seine" Daten.

Nun zur Frage des Urheberrechts:

- Darf das Buch erstellt werden und im eigenen privaten/familiären Umfeld als Kopie zur Einsicht gegeben werden?

- Darf das Buch kopiert/vervielfältigt werden und zu Selbstkosten an Interessierte weiter gegeben werden?

- Darf das Buch kopiert/vervielfältigt werden und zu Selbstkosten an Interessierte mit der Auflage weiter gegeben werden, es nur für persönliche Zwecke zu benutzen und nicht zu vervielfältigen?

- Darf das Buch gedruckt und kommerziell verkauft werden?

Weitere Varianten sind denkbar.

Meine persönliche Meinung dazu; 
das Urheberrecht liegt ausschließlich bei den Archiven, und diese Quellen sollten auch genannt werden(zumindest bei kommerzieller Verwertung). Wer diese Quellen genutzt und abgeschrieben hat dürfte dabei unerheblich sein, zumal der tatsächliche "Erfasser" kaum noch nachzuweisen ist.

Des weiteren bin ich grundsätzlich der Meinung, man sollte alle "nicht kommerziell" erforschten Daten allen anderen interessierten Hobby-Forschern kostenlos zur Verfügung stellen, gegeben falls gegen Erstattung von Kopier und Versandkosten.
Ich freue mich immer wieder wenn ich sehe, dass meine Daten einen anderen Stammbaum vervollständigen konnten. Ein Dankeschön ist dabei natürlich von besonderen Wert.

Gibt es dazu andere Meinungen?

MfG Werner Honkomp, Oldenburg



Re: [HN] old newsletter of 1997-

Date: 2003/02/08 21:27:17
From: Barbara Stewart <raymondg(a)attbi.com>

Hello,
    I did a search on google.com for Helmut Hoffmeister and found one with
this address.  Of course, I don't know if that is the right person you wrote
to before:

helmut @hoffmeister.as


on 2/8/03 9:48 AM, gutt morgan at guttmorgan(a)hotmail.com wrote:

> 
> 
> I have been reading arrchives. Do you still have a subscriber  Helmut
> Hoffmeister  or hoffmeister(a)muenster.net.
> There can only be one Nahrendof and some  his family  posted came from this
> area. I hope to locate him. My email came back.
> Any information on him would be greatly appreciated.
> I am currently reading all archives to see if he posted again.
> I hope you can help.
> Meyer
> 
> 
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
> The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE*
> http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Hannover-L mailing list
> Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l



Re: [HN] Familie Stockmann

Date: 2003/02/08 22:12:58
From: Vahlbruch <klaus-moni-vahlbruch(a)t-online.de>

Hallo Kristian und Wolf,
ich beglückwünsche Euch bei zu diesem Treffer.
Manchmal fragt man sich schon was diese Einzelfragen bringen?
Hier ist eine schöne Antwort. Das macht Mut und lässt geduldig sein.
Gruß
Klaus (Vahlbruch)
****************************************************************

Kristian Stockmann schrieb:

> >Wolf Günther antwortete:
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Hannover-L mailing list
> >Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> >http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Hannover-L mailing list
> Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l



Re: [HN] Copyright

Date: 2003/02/08 23:30:59
From: Ralf Stamporek <R.S(a)pobox.com>

Hallo Herr Honkomp,

angefuegt ein kleiner Auszug des derzeit gueltigen
Urheberrechtsgesetztes (Copyright), dass m.E. nach auf
genealogische 'Datensammlungen' angewendet werden _kann_!
Problematisch bleibt hierbei natuerlich die Frage des 
'geistigen Eigentums' am simplen Sammeln von Daten aus
verschiedenen Quellen. Da habe ich erhebliche (logisch-
menschliche Zweifel) ;-)
Und damit waere dann das Urheberrecht schon wieder
gekippt.
Ein Humbugbeispiel sei eine Schulaufgabe, bei der ich
zur Loesung in verschiedensten Buechern nachlesen muss.
Der Schueler mag Unmengen an Daten zusammentragen, die
zur richtigen Loesung fuehren, aber seine Quellen interessieren
wirklich niemanden der spaeter korrigiert. Das Ergebnis
ist allein von Interesse. Hat aber dann wirklich nichts
mehr mit dem Copyright zu tun. :-)
-------------------------------------
Urheberrechtsgesetz (UrhG) - Auszug
in der Fassung, die seit dem 01.07.2002 gültig ist
------------------------------------
§ 1 UrhG
Die Urheber von Werken der Literatur, Wissenschaft und Kunst genießen
für ihre Werke Schutz nach Maßgabe dieses Gesetzes.
§ 2 UrhG - Werke, die durch das UrhG geschützt werden 
(1) Zu den geschützten Werken der Literatur, Wissenschaft und Kunst
gehören insbesondere: 
1. Sprachwerke, wie Schriftwerke, Reden und Computerprogramme; 
2. Werke der Musik; 
3. pantomimische Werke einschließlich der Werke der Tanzkunst; 
4. Werke der bildenden Künste einschließlich der Werke der Baukunst
und der angewandten Kunst und Entwürfe solcher Werke; 
5. Lichtbildwerke einschließlich der Werke, die ähnlich wie
Lichtbildwerke
geschaffen werden; 
6. Filmwerke einschließlich der Werke, die ähnlich wie Filmwerke
geschaffen werden; 
7. Darstellungen wissenschaftlicher oder technischer Art, wie
Zeichnungen,
Pläne, Karten, Skizzen, Tabellen und plastische Darstellungen. 
(2) Werke im Sinne dieses Gesetzes sind nur persönliche geistige
Schöpfungen.

§ 4 UrhG -Sammelwerke und Datenbankwerke
(1) Sammlungen von Werken, Daten oder anderen unabhängigen Elementen,
die aufgrund der Auswahl oder Anordnung der Elemente eine persönliche
geistige Schöpfung sind (Sammelwerke), werden, unbeschadet eines an den
einzelnen Elementen gegebenenfalls bestehenden Urheberrechts oder
verwandten Schutzrechts, wie selbständige Werke geschützt.
(2) Datenbankwerk im Sinne dieses Gesetzes ist ein Sammelwerk, dessen
Elemente systematisch oder methodisch angeordnet und einzeln mit Hilfe
elektronischer Mittel oder auf andere Weise zugänglich sind. Ein zur
Schaffung des Datenbankwerkes oder zur Ermöglichung des Zugangs zu
dessen Elementen verwendetes Computerprogramm (§ 69 a) ist nicht
Bestandteil des Datenbankwerkes.

§ 53 UrhG - Vervielfältigungen zum privaten und sonstigen eigenen
Gebrauch
(1) Zulässig ist, einzelne Vervielfältigungsstücke eines Werkes zum
privaten Gebrauch herzustellen. Der zur Vervielfältigung Befugte darf
die Vervielfältigungsstücke auch durch einen anderen herstellen lassen;
doch gilt dies für die Übertragung von Werken auf Bild- oder Tonträger
und die Vervielfältigung von Werken der bildenden Künste nur, wenn es
unentgeltlich geschieht. 
(2) Zulässig ist, einzelne Vervielfältigungsstücke eines Werkes
herzustellen oder herstellen zu lassen 
1. zum eigenen wissenschaftlichen Gebrauch, wenn und soweit die
Vervielfältigung zu diesem Zweck geboten ist, 
2. zur Aufnahme in ein eigenes Archiv, wenn und soweit die
Vervielfältigung zu diesem Zweck geboten ist und als Vorlage für die
Vervielfältigung ein eigenes Werkstück benutzt wird, 
3. zur eigenen Unterrichtung über Tagesfragen, wenn es sich um ein durch
Funk gesendetes Werk handelt, 
4. zum sonstigen eigenen Gebrauch, 
a) wenn es sich um kleine Teile eines erschienenen Werkes oder um
einzelne Beiträge handelt, die in Zeitungen oder Zeitschriften
erschienen sind, 
b) wenn es sich um ein seit mindestens zwei Jahren vergriffenes Werk
handelt. 

Gruesse
Ralf Stamporek

Werner Honkomp wrote:
> 
> This is a special question to German members regarding copyright in Germany.
> 
> Liebe Listenteilnehmer,
> die Frage des Urheberrechts ist immer wieder spannend. Daher hätte ich gerne einen kundigen Rat zu folgendem "konstruierten" Beispiel:
> 
> Zwei Freunde betreiben seit Jahren Familienforschung. Dabei werden natürlich auch Daten untereinander ausgetauscht. Wie üblich sind bei dem Austausch der Daten keine Auflagen erteilt worden (z.B. hier kannst meine Daten einsehen Du darfst diese aber nicht weiter verwenden).
> Irgendwann ist einer von beiden zu einem gewissen Abschluss gekommen und fasst die Ergebnisse in einer Broschüre oder Buch zusammen. Natürlich sind in diesem Buch auch Daten enthalten die von dem Freund zur Verfügung gestellt wurden.
> Ein Hinweis auf die Quellen der Daten ist im Buch nicht enthalten.
> 
> Wie der Freund davon erfährt wird er neidisch und versucht mit allen Mitteln die Entstehung diese Buches zu verhindern, da er meint, es handelt sich zum Teil um "seine" Daten.
> 
> Nun zur Frage des Urheberrechts:
> 
> - Darf das Buch erstellt werden und im eigenen privaten/familiären Umfeld als Kopie zur Einsicht gegeben werden?
> 
> - Darf das Buch kopiert/vervielfältigt werden und zu Selbstkosten an Interessierte weiter gegeben werden?
> 
> - Darf das Buch kopiert/vervielfältigt werden und zu Selbstkosten an Interessierte mit der Auflage weiter gegeben werden, es nur für persönliche Zwecke zu benutzen und nicht zu vervielfältigen?
> 
> - Darf das Buch gedruckt und kommerziell verkauft werden?
> 
> Weitere Varianten sind denkbar.
> 
> Meine persönliche Meinung dazu;
> das Urheberrecht liegt ausschließlich bei den Archiven, und diese Quellen sollten auch genannt werden(zumindest bei kommerzieller Verwertung). Wer diese Quellen genutzt und abgeschrieben hat dürfte dabei unerheblich sein, zumal der tatsächliche "Erfasser" kaum noch nachzuweisen ist.
> 
> Des weiteren bin ich grundsätzlich der Meinung, man sollte alle "nicht kommerziell" erforschten Daten allen anderen interessierten Hobby-Forschern kostenlos zur Verfügung stellen, gegeben falls gegen Erstattung von Kopier und Versandkosten.
> Ich freue mich immer wieder wenn ich sehe, dass meine Daten einen anderen Stammbaum vervollständigen konnten. Ein Dankeschön ist dabei natürlich von besonderen Wert.
> 
> Gibt es dazu andere Meinungen?
> 
> MfG Werner Honkomp, Oldenburg


[HN] Re: Copyright

Date: 2003/02/09 14:44:24
From: Renate Ell <renate.ell(a)web.de>

Lieber Herr Honkamp, liebe Listenteilnehmer,

das Problem des Urheberrechts taucht immer mal wieder in Fällen wie dem in der Mail beschriebenen auf. Auch die "Computergenealogie", die einen Jursiten in ihrer Redaktion hat, greift das Thema ab und zu auf.

Im nächsten Heft wird stehen, dass genealogische Daten "nicht erfunden, sondern gefunden (werden) und dies begründet für den Erstfinder keine urheberrechtlichen oder verwandten Schutzrechte. ...

Die Verwendung und/oder die neuerliche Veröffentlichung abgeschriebener Kerndaten, egal welcher Herkunft, ist keine juristische Frage, sondern allenfalls eine Frage der auch und gerade den Familienforschern abzuverlangenden (hilfs-) wissenschaftlichen Fairness."

Entscheidende Voraussetzung für das Urheberrecht - ich schätze diesen Ausdruck, Copyright klingt doch irgendwie so, als wäre es ein Recht zum Abschreiben ;-) - ist eben ein geistiges Eigentum, eine Schöpfung. Das gilt z.B. für Texte, die man schreibt, aber eben nicht für die Zusammenstellung von recherchierten Daten.

Grüße,
Renate Ell

Message: 4
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 19:44:23 +0100
From: Werner.Honkomp(a)t-online.de (Werner Honkomp)
To: hannover-l(a)genealogy.net
Subject: [HN] Copyright
Reply-To: hannover-l(a)genealogy.net
Format: QP

This is a special question to German members regarding copyright in German=
y.

Liebe Listenteilnehmer,
die Frage des Urheberrechts ist immer wieder spannend. Daher hätte ich g=
erne einen kundigen Rat zu folgendem "konstruierten" Beispiel:

Zwei Freunde betreiben seit Jahren Familienforschung. Dabei werden natür=
lich auch Daten untereinander ausgetauscht. Wie üblich sind bei dem Aust=
ausch der Daten keine Auflagen erteilt worden (z.B. hier kannst meine Date=
n einsehen Du darfst diese aber nicht weiter verwenden).
Irgendwann ist einer von beiden zu einem gewissen Abschluss gekommen und f=
asst die Ergebnisse in einer Broschüre oder Buch zusammen. Natürlich s=
ind in diesem Buch auch Daten enthalten die von dem Freund zur Verfügung=
 gestellt wurden.
Ein Hinweis auf die Quellen der Daten ist im Buch nicht enthalten.

Wie der Freund davon erfährt wird er neidisch und versucht mit allen Mit=
teln die Entstehung diese Buches zu verhindern, da er meint, es handelt si=
ch zum Teil um "seine" Daten.

Nun zur Frage des Urheberrechts:

- Darf das Buch erstellt werden und im eigenen privaten/familiären Umfel=
d als Kopie zur Einsicht gegeben werden?

- Darf das Buch kopiert/vervielfältigt werden und zu Selbstkosten an Int=
eressierte weiter gegeben werden?

- Darf das Buch kopiert/vervielfältigt werden und zu Selbstkosten an Int=
eressierte mit der Auflage weiter gegeben werden, es nur für persönlic=
he Zwecke zu benutzen und nicht zu vervielfältigen?

- Darf das Buch gedruckt und kommerziell verkauft werden?

Weitere Varianten sind denkbar.

Meine persönliche Meinung dazu; das Urheberrecht liegt ausschließlich bei den Archiven, und diese Quelle=
n sollten auch genannt werden(zumindest bei kommerzieller Verwertung). Wer=
 diese Quellen genutzt und abgeschrieben hat dürfte dabei unerheblich se=
in, zumal der tatsächliche "Erfasser" kaum noch nachzuweisen ist.

Des weiteren bin ich grundsätzlich der Meinung, man sollte alle "nicht k=
ommerziell" erforschten Daten allen anderen interessierten Hobby-Forschern=
 kostenlos zur Verfügung stellen, gegeben falls gegen Erstattung von Kop=
ier und Versandkosten.
Ich freue mich immer wieder wenn ich sehe, dass meine Daten einen anderen =
Stammbaum vervollständigen konnten. Ein Dankeschön ist dabei natürli=
ch von besonderen Wert.

Gibt es dazu andere Meinungen?

MfG Werner Honkomp, Oldenburg


--
Renate Ell
Wissenschaftsjournalistin
Carl-Orff-Str. 11
85276 Hettenshausen
Tel. 08441 / 859876, 83251
Fax 08441 / 859877



[HN] Charles W. Fricke (1836-1913)

Date: 2003/02/09 17:52:42
From: Doug Fricke <DougFricke_MSN(a)msn.com>

Greetings:

We are searching for the birthplace and parents of Charles W. Fricke, born
1836 in Kingdom of Hannover, emigrated to Cincinnati about 1850, died 1913
in Ohio.

Thanks, Doug Fricke in Indiana



Re: [HN] Copyright and data protection law

Date: 2003/02/09 18:09:56
From: Helmut Hoffmeister <helmut-h(a)muenster.de>

Liebe Listenteilnehmer,

neben dem Urheberrecht ist das Bundesdatenschutzgesetz zu beachten.
Zweifellos bewegen wir Familienforscher uns häufig in einer rechtlichen
Grauzone. Aber: Wo kein Kläger, da kein Richter.

Zu Werners Fragen: Wenn die Sammlung des Freundes eine eigenschöpferische,
persönliche Leistung war (ist weit zugunsten des Freundes auszulegen), dann
ist bei konkludenter Zustimmung private Nutzung erlaubt (§ 55 UrhRG; § 28
BDatSchutzG). Jede kommerzielle Nutzung gemäß weiteren Fragen dürfte nicht
erlaubt sein. § 28 Bundesdatenschutzgesetz  (u.a.) bildet für den
beschriebenen Fall ein weiteres Hindernis.

Dies ist keine Rechtsauskunft im  gesetzlichen Sinne, sondern meine
persönliche Meinung. Ich bin auch für einern freundschaftlichen
Datenaustausch.

H. Hoffmeister

----- Original Message -----
From: "Werner Honkomp" <Werner.Honkomp(a)t-online.de>
To: <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 7:44 PM
Subject: [HN] Copyright


This is a special question to German members regarding copyright in Germany.

Liebe Listenteilnehmer,
die Frage des Urheberrechts ist immer wieder spannend. Daher hätte ich gerne
einen kundigen Rat zu folgendem "konstruierten" Beispiel:

Zwei Freunde betreiben seit Jahren Familienforschung. Dabei werden natürlich
auch Daten untereinander ausgetauscht. Wie üblich sind bei dem Austausch der
Daten keine Auflagen erteilt worden (z.B. hier kannst meine Daten einsehen
Du darfst diese aber nicht weiter verwenden).
Irgendwann ist einer von beiden zu einem gewissen Abschluss gekommen und
fasst die Ergebnisse in einer Broschüre oder Buch zusammen. Natürlich sind
in diesem Buch auch Daten enthalten die von dem Freund zur Verfügung
gestellt wurden.
Ein Hinweis auf die Quellen der Daten ist im Buch nicht enthalten.

Wie der Freund davon erfährt wird er neidisch und versucht mit allen Mitteln
die Entstehung diese Buches zu verhindern, da er meint, es handelt sich zum
Teil um "seine" Daten.

Nun zur Frage des Urheberrechts:

- Darf das Buch erstellt werden und im eigenen privaten/familiären Umfeld
als Kopie zur Einsicht gegeben werden?

- Darf das Buch kopiert/vervielfältigt werden und zu Selbstkosten an
Interessierte weiter gegeben werden?

- Darf das Buch kopiert/vervielfältigt werden und zu Selbstkosten an
Interessierte mit der Auflage weiter gegeben werden, es nur für persönliche
Zwecke zu benutzen und nicht zu vervielfältigen?

- Darf das Buch gedruckt und kommerziell verkauft werden?

Weitere Varianten sind denkbar.

Meine persönliche Meinung dazu;
das Urheberrecht liegt ausschließlich bei den Archiven, und diese Quellen
sollten auch genannt werden(zumindest bei kommerzieller Verwertung). Wer
diese Quellen genutzt und abgeschrieben hat dürfte dabei unerheblich sein,
zumal der tatsächliche "Erfasser" kaum noch nachzuweisen ist.

Des weiteren bin ich grundsätzlich der Meinung, man sollte alle "nicht
kommerziell" erforschten Daten allen anderen interessierten Hobby-Forschern
kostenlos zur Verfügung stellen, gegeben falls gegen Erstattung von Kopier
und Versandkosten.
Ich freue mich immer wieder wenn ich sehe, dass meine Daten einen anderen
Stammbaum vervollständigen konnten. Ein Dankeschön ist dabei natürlich von
besonderen Wert.

Gibt es dazu andere Meinungen?

MfG Werner Honkomp, Oldenburg


_______________________________________________
Hannover-L mailing list
Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l



Re: [HN] Charles W. Fricke (1836-1913)

Date: 2003/02/09 19:30:07
From: Barbara Stewart <raymondg(a)attbi.com>

Hello Doug,

 I have some suggestions that you may have already used:

Do a search for Fricke on the website with passenger lists:
   WWW.rootsweb.istg.com
I looked there and there are many Frickes listed.  You may know the names of
other people in the family, etc.  On some of those ships,  there are some
points of origin (or birthplace) given. NOT ALWAYS, however. They could
lead to the right birthplace for Charles W.  When you go to the website,
click on any volume listed and then scroll to the bottom of the page for a
search which lead you to any ships in any volume that have the name Fricke.
 
Since Charles is often Carl in Germany, be sure to use both names when
running searches. Actually, I would just use Fricke first and then  narrow
down to the given name, if need be.

There are many Fricke names found on a search on the German website,
   http://www.genealogienetz.de/genealogy.html
There is a full site search you can  use as well the Metasearch on the right
hand side.

Look on all message boards--you've probably done that since you wrote to
this one.

If you are near Cincinnati, use their great genealogy dept.  They have an
obituary index there and they actually did a search there for me, just with
my email request. Incidentally, were your people Catholic?   That might
narrow the possiblities down. My Catholic great-grandparents came through
Cincinnati as well. As well as several thousands other immigrants!  Use the
website for Hamilton County as well.
 
Finally, do a google.com  search for Fricke and you will receive lots of
returns and something somewhere may lead you to the answer.

I apologize if this is not helpful to you at all.  We just have to look so
many places in our searching and I wish you success.

Barbara


on 2/9/03 9:52 AM, Doug Fricke at DougFricke_MSN(a)msn.com wrote:

> Greetings:
> 
> We are searching for the birthplace and parents of Charles W. Fricke, born
> 1836 in Kingdom of Hannover, emigrated to Cincinnati about 1850, died 1913
> in Ohio.
> 
> Thanks, Doug Fricke in Indiana
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Hannover-L mailing list
> Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l



[HN] Copyright and data protection law

Date: 2003/02/09 20:56:07
From: Boyken & Boyken Partners <frisian(a)netins.net>

Liebe Listenmitglieder,

eine "Grauzone" sollte es nicht geben, wenn sich jeder Familienforscher in
gewisse Spielregeln hält. Dazu gehören das bundesdeutsche Urheberrecht, die
Datenschutzgesetze, evtl. das Personenstandsgesetz und die nationalen
Copyright vorschriften sowie die persönlichen Regeln des
Herausgebers/Autors.

Ergänzend zu Werner's "konstruiertem" Beispiel kann ich eine Tatsache aus
der Praxis beitragen:
Nach jahrelanger Forschungsarbeit in Deutschland habe ich auch die in den
USA gefundenen Ergebnisse beigefügt und das ganze in einem Buch
festgehalten, vorsichtshalber jedoch mit den deutschen und den
amerikanischen Copyright-Vorschriften. Doch nun kam eines Tages eine
Bekannte (nennen wir sie Frau W., die nur sehr, sehr wenig zu meinem Werk
beigetragen hat) hier in den USA auf die Idee, mein Buch an einen Herrn P.
weiterzugeben. Dieser hat dann alles abgeschrieben und in einer Homepage
festgehalten. Zu allem Überfluß hat er jedoch die "Frechheit" besessen, eine
Internet-Veröffentlichung mit   s e i n e m  Copyright zu ergänzen. Von der
in meiner Copyright-Vorschrift eingeräumten Zustimmung haben weder Frau W.
noch Herr P. Gebrauch gemacht.
In diesem Fall ist zumindest nach amerikanischem Recht ein Kläger vorhanden.

Ich begrüße die deutschen Rechtsvorschriften!
Interessierte sollten folgende amerikanische Abhandlungen über Copyright und
Privacy protection lesen:
1.    http://www.loc.gov/copyright (Library of Congress - Copyright Office,
in Washington, D.C. 20559-6000);
2.    die NARA Veröffentlichung
http://www.archives.gov/global_pages/privacy_and_use.html, die homepage
http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/privacy/index/html  und speziell für den U.S.
Bundesstaat California die homepage http://www.privaryprotection.ca.gov/ mit
weitergehendem Recht.
Ob sich hier noch ein Richter finden läßt ?

Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Hans-Georg Boyken
______________________________






----- Original Message -----
From: "Helmut Hoffmeister" <helmut-h(a)muenster.de>
To: <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
Cc: <werner.honkomp(a)t-online.de>
Sent: Sunday, February 09, 2003 11:10 AM
Subject: Re: [HN] Copyright and data protection law


> Liebe Listenteilnehmer,
>
> neben dem Urheberrecht ist das Bundesdatenschutzgesetz zu beachten.
> Zweifellos bewegen wir Familienforscher uns häufig in einer rechtlichen
> Grauzone. Aber: Wo kein Kläger, da kein Richter.
>
> Zu Werners Fragen: Wenn die Sammlung des Freundes eine eigenschöpferische,
> persönliche Leistung war (ist weit zugunsten des Freundes auszulegen),
dann
> ist bei konkludenter Zustimmung private Nutzung erlaubt (§ 55 UrhRG; § 28
> BDatSchutzG). Jede kommerzielle Nutzung gemäß weiteren Fragen dürfte nicht
> erlaubt sein. § 28 Bundesdatenschutzgesetz  (u.a.) bildet für den
> beschriebenen Fall ein weiteres Hindernis.
>
> Dies ist keine Rechtsauskunft im  gesetzlichen Sinne, sondern meine
> persönliche Meinung. Ich bin auch für einern freundschaftlichen
> Datenaustausch.
>
> H. Hoffmeister
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Werner Honkomp" <Werner.Honkomp(a)t-online.de>
> To: <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
> Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 7:44 PM
> Subject: [HN] Copyright
>
>
> This is a special question to German members regarding copyright in
Germany.
>
> Liebe Listenteilnehmer,
> die Frage des Urheberrechts ist immer wieder spannend. Daher hätte ich
gerne
> einen kundigen Rat zu folgendem "konstruierten" Beispiel:
>
> Zwei Freunde betreiben seit Jahren Familienforschung. Dabei werden
natürlich
> auch Daten untereinander ausgetauscht. Wie üblich sind bei dem Austausch
der
> Daten keine Auflagen erteilt worden (z.B. hier kannst meine Daten einsehen
> Du darfst diese aber nicht weiter verwenden).
> Irgendwann ist einer von beiden zu einem gewissen Abschluss gekommen und
> fasst die Ergebnisse in einer Broschüre oder Buch zusammen. Natürlich sind
> in diesem Buch auch Daten enthalten die von dem Freund zur Verfügung
> gestellt wurden.
> Ein Hinweis auf die Quellen der Daten ist im Buch nicht enthalten.
>
> Wie der Freund davon erfährt wird er neidisch und versucht mit allen
Mitteln
> die Entstehung diese Buches zu verhindern, da er meint, es handelt sich
zum
> Teil um "seine" Daten.
>
> Nun zur Frage des Urheberrechts:
>
> - Darf das Buch erstellt werden und im eigenen privaten/familiären Umfeld
> als Kopie zur Einsicht gegeben werden?
>
> - Darf das Buch kopiert/vervielfältigt werden und zu Selbstkosten an
> Interessierte weiter gegeben werden?
>
> - Darf das Buch kopiert/vervielfältigt werden und zu Selbstkosten an
> Interessierte mit der Auflage weiter gegeben werden, es nur für
persönliche
> Zwecke zu benutzen und nicht zu vervielfältigen?
>
> - Darf das Buch gedruckt und kommerziell verkauft werden?
>
> Weitere Varianten sind denkbar.
>
> Meine persönliche Meinung dazu;
> das Urheberrecht liegt ausschließlich bei den Archiven, und diese Quellen
> sollten auch genannt werden(zumindest bei kommerzieller Verwertung). Wer
> diese Quellen genutzt und abgeschrieben hat dürfte dabei unerheblich sein,
> zumal der tatsächliche "Erfasser" kaum noch nachzuweisen ist.
>
> Des weiteren bin ich grundsätzlich der Meinung, man sollte alle "nicht
> kommerziell" erforschten Daten allen anderen interessierten
Hobby-Forschern
> kostenlos zur Verfügung stellen, gegeben falls gegen Erstattung von Kopier
> und Versandkosten.
> Ich freue mich immer wieder wenn ich sehe, dass meine Daten einen anderen
> Stammbaum vervollständigen konnten. Ein Dankeschön ist dabei natürlich von
> besonderen Wert.
>
> Gibt es dazu andere Meinungen?
>
> MfG Werner Honkomp, Oldenburg
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Hannover-L mailing list
> Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Hannover-L mailing list
> Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l



[HN] Copyright and genealogical data - the English version

Date: 2003/02/09 23:25:51
From: Renate Ell <renate.ell(a)web.de>

Dear English speaking list members,

I was asked for a translation of my mail on German copyright by a member from Australia, so I am mailing it to all of you just in case, you were guessing what I meant, too.

What I wrote about copyright in the context of genealogical data is that copyright does only apply to intellectual property, so it does not apply for genealogical data since they are found, not created (in the sense of creating a text or a peace of art). The use of other people´s genealogical data without quoting, giving credit to them is rather a question of fairness. I do not know whether there is a website on German copyright in English, I can only recommend to check a search engine.

I also wrote that I prefer the German word "Urheberrecht" which means something like "author´s right" because "copyright" sounds like the right to copy which is the contrary of what it really means, isn´t it?

Kind regards
Renate
--
Renate Ell
Wissenschaftsjournalistin
Carl-Orff-Str. 11
85276 Hettenshausen
Tel. 08441 / 859876, 83251
Fax 08441 / 859877




Re: [HN] Charles W. Fricke (1836-1913)

Date: 2003/02/10 00:29:18
From: Barbara Barnes <bsbarnes(a)cinci.rr.com>

Check the Ohio Historical Society's online Ohio death certificate index
(years 1913 - 1937) at the following URL:
http://www.ohiohistory.org/dindex/

    Death certificates can be ordered from the OHS.  The web site gives all
the details for ordering.  Sometimes the death certificate will give the
place of birth and parents' names;  it all depends on who provided the
information for the certificate.  If the undertaker listed is still in
business, they may have records, and may send you copies.  If your ancestor
was Catholic and died or is buried in Cincinnati, the Cincinnati Catholic
Cemetery Society records have been microfilmed and ae available for viewing
at the Public Library locally.
    There are a lot of published materials available at the Public Library
in Cincinnati that might be helpful, including microfilmed copies of German
language newspapers, if you are able to travel.  I have found useful
information in obituaries published there.  The Hamilton County Chapter of
the Ohio Genealogical Society has published a number of indexes for Death
Notices published in the Cincinnati newspapers (English and German
language), and burial records for several cemeteries.  These books are all
available at the Cincinnati Public Library;  they may be also be available
at other libraries.
    Hope this information is of some help to you.  Good luck in your search.

Barbara Barnes (Cincinnati, Ohio)



Re: [HN] Copyright and genealogical data - the English version

Date: 2003/02/10 01:28:44
From: Dem13 <Dem13(a)aol.com>

Hello Renate and other list members,

I would agree with Renate, but only to a point.  I have been reading the 
German version of this discussion, and, from what I saw excerpted from the 
German copyright law (§4 on collected works and data base works), I think 
that the German law is similar to US law.  

Under US law, someone cannot copyright a fact.  For example, you cannot 
copyright a baptism (birth) or a burial (death).  I do not think that even 
the archives which hold the books recording this information have any kind of 
copyright or intellectual property right, since these are just recorded 
facts.  Since they own the books, they can deny you access (no law says you 
have a right to see them, or microfilmed copies of them), but the have no 
intellectual property right on the underlying facts.  They are just a 
chronological recording of the factual events that occurred in a parish, 
(usually, in our cases) a long, long time ago.

In the US you get a copyright when you add something original to the mix or 
collection of facts.  If you put together a book with written text, you have 
a copyright.  If you put together a genealogy, using your own judgement to 
make certain connections (e.g., you think Gerd Arlinghaus was the son of 
Lutmar and Catharina Gier versus the son of Johan and Catharina Schwegmann), 
then maybe you have something protectable, but somebody else is always 
welcome to publish something coming to the same, or a different conclusion on 
their own.  In the US something is only protectable if you put thought into 
how something is ordered, collected (i.e., if it's selective) or organized.  
In other words you have to add something of your own to the mix to make it 
legally protectable, and then, only your organization is protectable.  People 
can still use the underlying facts to make their own works.  You don't own 
the facts, just because they are part of a work that you have a copyright in. 
 Too many people think that whenever they write something done (or more 
accurately copy something), that it is theirs.  Often it is.  Sometimes it's 
not, especially when it's just based on facts we copied from someplace else.

One of the leading cases in the US dealt with someone copying a phonebook.  
The US Supreme Court said there was no copyright in the phonebook (i.e, it 
was okay to copy it) because there was no special thought or organization in 
the collection.  It just listed everybody in a given town, in alphabetical 
order.  These were just a recording of existing facts.  Somebody put a lot of 
work into it, yes, but it was not protected because there was no thought work 
or "intellectual property" added.  Time and effort, without adding something 
"intellectual" doesn't give you anything protectable.  Now if they put all 
the people in the order of who was smartest, or who was crankiest, then they 
probably would have had something protectable.  Similarly, I'd say that just 
recording all of the baptisms, marriages or deaths in a given parish is just 
a list of facts.  Nothing "special" is added to make it copyrighted (at least 
in the US).  

I don't know what the exact line is, and I don't think anybody does either 
(that's why we have caselaw and binding precedent in the US).  They make 
decisions like this (and rules come about by example) to leave the judges 
room to change their minds later and for lawyers to make money arguing.

From reading the excerpt of German law I mentioned above, I think German law 
is similar.  It seems to say that a copyright arises from the selection or 
collection of items to include in the database, and it points out that this 
is happens, even if the items in the database have a copyright of their own.  
Here, I personally think that the fact someone was baptised, married or 
buried is not a copyrightable element anyway.  If I have misread or 
misunderstood the excerpts above, please let me know.  I'm the first to admit 
that my German is far from perfect.

Back to Werner's original question (i.e., two people collaborate on research, 
and one wants to make a book), I think it may matter what kind of information 
is at issue, and how it was used.  If the shared information is just raw 
facts (i.e., not organized), neither has rights.  If there was some thought 
put into it, maybe, but a person could look at the same facts and come to the 
same conclusions.  I have seen genealogies done of my family (and have 
sometimes disagreed, as in my example above), but that does not prevent me 
from doing the same or (I would sometimes vainly argue) better research, 
using the same archive sources and coming to the same or different 
conclusions.  Just because it's written down, it doesn't make it right.  
Also, you don't get a copyright to prevent other people from researching and 
sharing their family's genealogies just because you did the work first.  

I think the facts in Werner's question about whether you charge for copies, 
get reimbursed, etc. has more to do with remedies.  That is, assuming you did 
violate a copyright, what the damages/penalty would be if you got sued would 
take into account whether you did it privately or commercially (i.e., sold 
copies for profit).  

I do agree with Renate fully that using someone else's information (which you 
have not independently researched yourself) without giving them credit is 
more of a fairness question.  

My personal opinion for my own research is the same as Werner's.  If my 
information can help someone with their family tree, I'm glad to have helped 
(he's also right that a thank you is always appreciated too).

I think that this is an interesting topic and would be interested to hear 
others thoughts (even if you think I'm full of it).  I know that sometimes 
this can be an emotional issue, especially if somebody seems to be saying 
that you may not have any protectable rights in information that you worked 
very hard to put together.  Maybe if we're lucky, we have an IP lawyer on the 
list who could set us all straight.

Don




In a message dated 2/9/2003 5:26:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
renate.ell(a)web.de writes:


> Dear English speaking list members,
> 
> I was asked for a translation of my mail on German copyright by a member 
> from Australia, so I am mailing it to all of you just in case, you were 
> guessing what I meant, too.
> 
> What I wrote about copyright in the context of genealogical data is that 
> copyright does only apply to intellectual property, so it does not apply 
> for genealogical data since they are found, not created (in the sense of 
> creating a text or a peace of art). The use of other people´s 
> genealogical data without quoting, giving credit to them is rather a 
> question of fairness. I do not know whether there is a website on German 
> copyright in English, I can only recommend to check a search engine.
> 
> I also wrote that I prefer the German word "Urheberrecht" which means 
> something like "author´s right" because "copyright" sounds like the 
> right to copy which is the contrary of what it really means, isn´t it?
> 
> Kind regards
> Renate
> 



[HN] Rabber. Wittlage,Hustadte, Barkhausen

Date: 2003/02/10 04:26:04
From: Lee <kayak(a)execpc.com>

Greetings;
I have been off the list for awhile and want to get back into researching my
ancestors. I am researching Büscher, Hagedorn, Huge, Läkamp, Wobbe.  (Pardon
my spelling of German cities)  I believe these villages border Westfalia and
Hannover so I am looking in both areas.  These ancestors left Germany in
Sept 1864 and went first to Cleveland Ohio,  then in 1868 went  on to Carver
County Minnesota.  I have found a living "cousin" in Osnabruck who has
helped me get back to a Johann Freidrich Büscher born about 1730. I would
like to continue back in time.  Any help with these families would be
appreciated.

Lee in Wisconsin




Re: [HN] Rabber. Wittlage,Hustadte, Barkhausen

Date: 2003/02/10 04:36:58
From: mstulken <mstulken(a)discover-net.net>

I just saw the "Wittlage" and "Barkhausen" and decided to say "hi."  One of my
lines is from Wittlage and Barkhausen.

Marilyn in Racine WI

Lee wrote:

> Greetings;
> I have been off the list for awhile and want to get back into researching my
> ancestors. I am researching Büscher, Hagedorn, Huge, Läkamp, Wobbe.  (Pardon
> my spelling of German cities)  I believe these villages border Westfalia and
> Hannover so I am looking in both areas.  These ancestors left Germany in
> Sept 1864 and went first to Cleveland Ohio,  then in 1868 went  on to Carver
> County Minnesota.  I have found a living "cousin" in Osnabruck who has
> helped me get back to a Johann Freidrich Büscher born about 1730. I would
> like to continue back in time.  Any help with these families would be
> appreciated.
>
> Lee in Wisconsin
>
> _______________________________________________
> Hannover-L mailing list
> Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l



Re: [HN] Das alte Europa und Rumsfeld´s Vorfahren

Date: 2003/02/10 09:33:21
From: Uwe ErichsSohn <Uwe.Schaerff(a)t-online.de>

Dazu im Hamburger Abendblatt vom 10.02.03 (Seite 4 mit Foto):


"Früher war er netter"
Besuch bei Margarete Rumsfeld, Verwandte des
US-Ministers, im Kreis Diepholz.

Weyhe-Sudweyhe - Die alte Dame ist enttäuscht. "Früher
war er viel netter." Jetzt jedoch findet die 85-Jährige nur
noch wenig lobende Worte über den Amerikaner. "So etwas
macht man nicht, das grenzt an Beleidigung", beurteilt
Margarete Rumsfeld, die nächste deutsche Verwandte von
US-Verteidigungsminister Donald Rumsfeld, die jüngsten
Attacken des US-Politikers. Rumsfeld hatte Deutschland im
Zusammenhang mit der Irak-Krise mehrfach heftig kritisiert
und dabei auch in eine Reihe mit Kuba und Libyen gestellt. 
Der letzte Besuch des Verteidigungsministers im Geburtsort
seiner Vorfahren, dem nahe Bremen gelegenen
Weyhe-Sudweyhe, ist 26 Jahre her. "Eigentlich ist es ja die
Familie meines verstorbenen Mannes", schränkt Margarete
Rumsfeld immer wieder ein. Doch den ersten Besuch des
Verwandten aus dem fernen Amerika hat sie so lebhaft in
Erinnerung, als sei es gestern gewesen: "Irgendwann stand
er 1972 hier wie ein typischer Amerikaner - karierte Hose,
offenes Hemd." Damals war er noch nicht der Herr über ein
Heer von Panzern, sondern fuhr in einem geliehenen
VW-Käfer. Jetzt, wo er die Macht über Krieg und Frieden in
der Hand hält, stellt Margarete Rumsfeld fest: "Er ist alt
geworden. Und hart." 

Während heute bei der deutschen Verwandten
Verständnislosigkeit über die Äußerungen des
US-Verteidigungsministers herrscht, waren es seinerzeit
Verständigungsschwierigkeiten: Er konnte kein Deutsch, sie
kein Englisch. Immerhin waren die Vorfahren des Politikers
schon 1866 aus Deutschland ausgewandert. Erst beim
dritten und bislang letzten Besuch 1976 war ein intensiveres
Gespräch möglich: "Da hatte er einen Dolmetscher dabei." 

Dass Rumsfeld eine politische Laufbahn fernab der friedlichen
Felder in der norddeutschen Tiefebene eingeschlagen hatte,
bekam seinerzeit das ganze Dorf zu spüren:
"Sicherheitsbeamte haben hier alles kontrolliert, sogar das
Haus inspiziert." Denn derjenige, der sich mit seinen
deutschen Verwandten zum Schweinebraten an den
Esstisch setzte, war inzwischen Verteidigungsminister der
US-Regierung unter Präsident Gerald Ford. 

Obwohl Rumsfeld immer wieder in offizieller Mission wie jetzt
bei der Münchner Sicherheitskonferenz nach Deutschland
kommt, hegt Margarete Rumsfeld keine Hoffnung, ihn noch
einmal persönlich zu sehen. Dabei könnte sie im eigenen
Haus ein Beispiel für die friedliche Koexistenz verschiedener
Nationen bieten: Die 85-Jährige ist gebürtige Dänin, ihr
Schwiegersohn Italiener. 

"Vor zwei Jahren hat er uns noch geschrieben, dass er uns
nicht vergisst", schüttelt Margarete Rumsfeld den Kopf.
Heute bekäme er Worte zu hören, die er nicht vergessen
sollte: "Dem würde ich eine Standpauke halten." dpa 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Boyken & Boyken Partners schrieb am 07.02.03:
>
> Sehr geehrter Freitag,
>
> würden Sie bitte den Listenmitgliedern die Namen des Ururgroßvaters, des
> Urgroßvaters, des Großvaters des Herrn  Donald Rumsfeld  nennen. Danke.
>
> Mit freundlichen Grüßen
> Hans-Georg Boyken
> Titonka, IA 50480-0269, USA
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Reinhard J. Freytag" <Reinhard.Freytag(a)t-online.de>
> To: "Niedersachsen(a)genealogy.net" <FamNord(a)genealogy.net>
> Cc: <Hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
> Sent: Friday, February 07, 2003 5:12 AM
> Subject: [HN] Das alte Europa und Rumsfeld´s Vorfahren
>
>
> Ich finde, folgendes passt in unsere Genealogie-Runde:
>
>
> Die Vorfahren von Herrn Rumsfeld (kann ein Kriegsminister einen besseren
> Namen haben?) stammen aus dem alten Europa, Norddeutschland. Sein
> Ururgroßvater ist 1866 mit 6 Kindern in die USA ausgewandert, seine
> Genalogie ist bekannt. Als Herr Rumsfeld in der 70er noch Nato-Botschafter
> in Europa war und auch danach in seiner ersten Zeit als
> Verteidigungsminister unter Vater Bush kam er regelmäßig in den Ort zu den
> dort noch lebenden Rumsfelds zu Besuch. Das wird er heute ungern hören, ist
> aber belegt.
> --
> Mit freundlichen Grüßen aus Göttingen
> Reinhard J. Freytag
>
===========================================================================
Uwe Schärff     Falenbek 8     DE-22149 Hamburg-Rahlstedt
'fax (0049) 040 - 669 09 950   ePost: uwe.schaerff(a)t-online.de   
===========================================================================



Re: [HN] Rabber. Wittlage,Hustadte, Barkhausen

Date: 2003/02/10 15:09:45
From: MagdalenaJLM <MagdalenaJLM(a)aol.com>

My great grandfather, J. Frederick (Martin) Leimkuehler, born 9-10-1868, in 
Cleveland, Ohio, married Emma (Moeller) Huge, who was born in Cleveland, 
2-1-1873 and died 11-24-1946.  Martin was Emma's second husband. 
Jill


[HN] Re: Hannover-L digest, Vol 1 #849 - 2 msgs

Date: 2003/02/10 15:22:46
From: don foss <dfoss1(a)cfl.rr.com>

Hi there Barkhausen researcher(s),
Maria Ilsabein BUSCHER, born 3/1/1841 in Buer parish was married in the
early 1860's in Buer to Ernst Heinrich REKER, born 2/1/1838 in Barkhausen.
They emigrated on 3/28/1888 to Carroll County, KY. They had seven children,
all born in Barkhausen. REKER changed to RAKER and BUSCHER changed to
BUSHMAN after arrival in the U.S. I have quite a bit on this family in the
U.S. but am interested in the REKER and BUSCHER lines in Germany.
----- Original Message -----
From: <hannover-l-request(a)genealogy.net>
To: <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
Sent: Monday, February 10, 2003 6:01 AM
Subject: Hannover-L digest, Vol 1 #849 - 2 msgs


Send Hannover-L mailing list submissions to
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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: Rabber. Wittlage,Hustadte, Barkhausen (mstulken)
   2. Re: Das alte Europa und Rumsfeld´s Vorfahren (Uwe ErichsSohn)

--__--__--

Message: 1
Date: Sun, 09 Feb 2003 21:20:40 -0600
From: mstulken <mstulken(a)discover-net.net>
To: hannover-l(a)genealogy.net
Subject: Re: [HN] Rabber. Wittlage,Hustadte, Barkhausen
Reply-To: hannover-l(a)genealogy.net

I just saw the "Wittlage" and "Barkhausen" and decided to say "hi."  One of
my
lines is from Wittlage and Barkhausen.

Marilyn in Racine WI

Lee wrote:

> Greetings;
> I have been off the list for awhile and want to get back into researching
my
> ancestors. I am researching Büscher, Hagedorn, Huge, Läkamp, Wobbe.
(Pardon
> my spelling of German cities)  I believe these villages border Westfalia
and
> Hannover so I am looking in both areas.  These ancestors left Germany in
> Sept 1864 and went first to Cleveland Ohio,  then in 1868 went  on to
Carver
> County Minnesota.  I have found a living "cousin" in Osnabruck who has
> helped me get back to a Johann Freidrich Büscher born about 1730. I would
> like to continue back in time.  Any help with these families would be
> appreciated.
>
> Lee in Wisconsin
>
> _______________________________________________
> Hannover-L mailing list
> Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l



--__--__--

Message: 2
From: Uwe.Schaerff(a)t-online.de (Uwe ErichsSohn)
To: hannover-l(a)genealogy.net
Cc: FamNord(a)genealogy.net
Subject: Re: [HN] Das alte Europa und Rumsfeld´s Vorfahren
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 09:33:08 +0100
Reply-To: hannover-l(a)genealogy.net

Dazu im Hamburger Abendblatt vom 10.02.03 (Seite 4 mit Foto):


"Früher war er netter"
Besuch bei Margarete Rumsfeld, Verwandte des
US-Ministers, im Kreis Diepholz.

Weyhe-Sudweyhe - Die alte Dame ist enttäuscht. "Früher
war er viel netter." Jetzt jedoch findet die 85-Jährige nur
noch wenig lobende Worte über den Amerikaner. "So etwas
macht man nicht, das grenzt an Beleidigung", beurteilt
Margarete Rumsfeld, die nächste deutsche Verwandte von
US-Verteidigungsminister Donald Rumsfeld, die jüngsten
Attacken des US-Politikers. Rumsfeld hatte Deutschland im
Zusammenhang mit der Irak-Krise mehrfach heftig kritisiert
und dabei auch in eine Reihe mit Kuba und Libyen gestellt.
Der letzte Besuch des Verteidigungsministers im Geburtsort
seiner Vorfahren, dem nahe Bremen gelegenen
Weyhe-Sudweyhe, ist 26 Jahre her. "Eigentlich ist es ja die
Familie meines verstorbenen Mannes", schränkt Margarete
Rumsfeld immer wieder ein. Doch den ersten Besuch des
Verwandten aus dem fernen Amerika hat sie so lebhaft in
Erinnerung, als sei es gestern gewesen: "Irgendwann stand
er 1972 hier wie ein typischer Amerikaner - karierte Hose,
offenes Hemd." Damals war er noch nicht der Herr über ein
Heer von Panzern, sondern fuhr in einem geliehenen
VW-Käfer. Jetzt, wo er die Macht über Krieg und Frieden in
der Hand hält, stellt Margarete Rumsfeld fest: "Er ist alt
geworden. Und hart."

Während heute bei der deutschen Verwandten
Verständnislosigkeit über die Äußerungen des
US-Verteidigungsministers herrscht, waren es seinerzeit
Verständigungsschwierigkeiten: Er konnte kein Deutsch, sie
kein Englisch. Immerhin waren die Vorfahren des Politikers
schon 1866 aus Deutschland ausgewandert. Erst beim
dritten und bislang letzten Besuch 1976 war ein intensiveres
Gespräch möglich: "Da hatte er einen Dolmetscher dabei."

Dass Rumsfeld eine politische Laufbahn fernab der friedlichen
Felder in der norddeutschen Tiefebene eingeschlagen hatte,
bekam seinerzeit das ganze Dorf zu spüren:
"Sicherheitsbeamte haben hier alles kontrolliert, sogar das
Haus inspiziert." Denn derjenige, der sich mit seinen
deutschen Verwandten zum Schweinebraten an den
Esstisch setzte, war inzwischen Verteidigungsminister der
US-Regierung unter Präsident Gerald Ford.

Obwohl Rumsfeld immer wieder in offizieller Mission wie jetzt
bei der Münchner Sicherheitskonferenz nach Deutschland
kommt, hegt Margarete Rumsfeld keine Hoffnung, ihn noch
einmal persönlich zu sehen. Dabei könnte sie im eigenen
Haus ein Beispiel für die friedliche Koexistenz verschiedener
Nationen bieten: Die 85-Jährige ist gebürtige Dänin, ihr
Schwiegersohn Italiener.

"Vor zwei Jahren hat er uns noch geschrieben, dass er uns
nicht vergisst", schüttelt Margarete Rumsfeld den Kopf.
Heute bekäme er Worte zu hören, die er nicht vergessen
sollte: "Dem würde ich eine Standpauke halten." dpa

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Boyken & Boyken Partners schrieb am 07.02.03:
>
> Sehr geehrter Freitag,
>
> würden Sie bitte den Listenmitgliedern die Namen des Ururgroßvaters, des
> Urgroßvaters, des Großvaters des Herrn  Donald Rumsfeld  nennen. Danke.
>
> Mit freundlichen Grüßen
> Hans-Georg Boyken
> Titonka, IA 50480-0269, USA
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Reinhard J. Freytag" <Reinhard.Freytag(a)t-online.de>
> To: "Niedersachsen(a)genealogy.net" <FamNord(a)genealogy.net>
> Cc: <Hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
> Sent: Friday, February 07, 2003 5:12 AM
> Subject: [HN] Das alte Europa und Rumsfeld´s Vorfahren
>
>
> Ich finde, folgendes passt in unsere Genealogie-Runde:
>
>
> Die Vorfahren von Herrn Rumsfeld (kann ein Kriegsminister einen besseren
> Namen haben?) stammen aus dem alten Europa, Norddeutschland. Sein
> Ururgroßvater ist 1866 mit 6 Kindern in die USA ausgewandert, seine
> Genalogie ist bekannt. Als Herr Rumsfeld in der 70er noch Nato-Botschafter
> in Europa war und auch danach in seiner ersten Zeit als
> Verteidigungsminister unter Vater Bush kam er regelmäßig in den Ort zu den
> dort noch lebenden Rumsfelds zu Besuch. Das wird er heute ungern hören,
ist
> aber belegt.
> --
> Mit freundlichen Grüßen aus Göttingen
> Reinhard J. Freytag
>
===========================================================================
Uwe Schärff     Falenbek 8     DE-22149 Hamburg-Rahlstedt
'fax (0049) 040 - 669 09 950   ePost: uwe.schaerff(a)t-online.de
===========================================================================




--__--__--

_______________________________________________
Hannover-L mailing list
Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l


End of Hannover-L Digest




[HN] Das alte Europa und Rumsfeld´s Vorfahren

Date: 2003/02/10 17:08:02
From: Boyken & Boyken Partners <frisian(a)netins.net>

Sehr geehrter Herr Freytag,
sehr geehrte Listenmitglieder,

meine Anfrage vom 7. bezw. 9. Februar hat sich erledigt.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Hans-Georg Boyken



Re: [HN] Das alte Europa und Rumsfeld´s Vorfahren

Date: 2003/02/10 17:23:38
From: Barbara Stewart <raymondg(a)attbi.com>

Hello,
    I am very curious what all these letters about Donald Rumsfeld are
about.  I used an online translator and it obviously is something about
Rumsfeld's ancestors or relatives.  Would anyone care to let us know in
English?  I realize this is not the proper forum, but I do want to say that
there are many, many Americans as  opposed  to this impending  war as
Germany and other Europeans are.
Thank you,
Barbara Stewart








n 2/10/03 1:33 AM, Uwe ErichsSohn at Uwe.Schaerff(a)t-online.de wrote:

> Dazu im Hamburger Abendblatt vom 10.02.03 (Seite 4 mit Foto):
> 
> 
> "Früher war er netter"
> Besuch bei Margarete Rumsfeld, Verwandte des
> US-Ministers, im Kreis Diepholz.
> 
> Weyhe-Sudweyhe - Die alte Dame ist enttäuscht. "Früher
> war er viel netter." Jetzt jedoch findet die 85-Jährige nur
> noch wenig lobende Worte über den Amerikaner. "So etwas
> macht man nicht, das grenzt an Beleidigung", beurteilt
> Margarete Rumsfeld, die nächste deutsche Verwandte von
> US-Verteidigungsminister Donald Rumsfeld, die jüngsten
> Attacken des US-Politikers. Rumsfeld hatte Deutschland im
> Zusammenhang mit der Irak-Krise mehrfach heftig kritisiert
> und dabei auch in eine Reihe mit Kuba und Libyen gestellt.
> Der letzte Besuch des Verteidigungsministers im Geburtsort
> seiner Vorfahren, dem nahe Bremen gelegenen
> Weyhe-Sudweyhe, ist 26 Jahre her. "Eigentlich ist es ja die
> Familie meines verstorbenen Mannes", schränkt Margarete
> Rumsfeld immer wieder ein. Doch den ersten Besuch des
> Verwandten aus dem fernen Amerika hat sie so lebhaft in
> Erinnerung, als sei es gestern gewesen: "Irgendwann stand
> er 1972 hier wie ein typischer Amerikaner - karierte Hose,
> offenes Hemd." Damals war er noch nicht der Herr über ein
> Heer von Panzern, sondern fuhr in einem geliehenen
> VW-Käfer. Jetzt, wo er die Macht über Krieg und Frieden in
> der Hand hält, stellt Margarete Rumsfeld fest: "Er ist alt
> geworden. Und hart."
> 
> Während heute bei der deutschen Verwandten
> Verständnislosigkeit über die Äußerungen des
> US-Verteidigungsministers herrscht, waren es seinerzeit
> Verständigungsschwierigkeiten: Er konnte kein Deutsch, sie
> kein Englisch. Immerhin waren die Vorfahren des Politikers
> schon 1866 aus Deutschland ausgewandert. Erst beim
> dritten und bislang letzten Besuch 1976 war ein intensiveres
> Gespräch möglich: "Da hatte er einen Dolmetscher dabei."
> 
> Dass Rumsfeld eine politische Laufbahn fernab der friedlichen
> Felder in der norddeutschen Tiefebene eingeschlagen hatte,
> bekam seinerzeit das ganze Dorf zu spüren:
> "Sicherheitsbeamte haben hier alles kontrolliert, sogar das
> Haus inspiziert." Denn derjenige, der sich mit seinen
> deutschen Verwandten zum Schweinebraten an den
> Esstisch setzte, war inzwischen Verteidigungsminister der
> US-Regierung unter Präsident Gerald Ford.
> 
> Obwohl Rumsfeld immer wieder in offizieller Mission wie jetzt
> bei der Münchner Sicherheitskonferenz nach Deutschland
> kommt, hegt Margarete Rumsfeld keine Hoffnung, ihn noch
> einmal persönlich zu sehen. Dabei könnte sie im eigenen
> Haus ein Beispiel für die friedliche Koexistenz verschiedener
> Nationen bieten: Die 85-Jährige ist gebürtige Dänin, ihr
> Schwiegersohn Italiener.
> 
> "Vor zwei Jahren hat er uns noch geschrieben, dass er uns
> nicht vergisst", schüttelt Margarete Rumsfeld den Kopf.
> Heute bekäme er Worte zu hören, die er nicht vergessen
> sollte: "Dem würde ich eine Standpauke halten." dpa
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Boyken & Boyken Partners schrieb am 07.02.03:
>> 
>> Sehr geehrter Freitag,
>> 
>> würden Sie bitte den Listenmitgliedern die Namen des Ururgroßvaters, des
>> Urgroßvaters, des Großvaters des Herrn  Donald Rumsfeld  nennen. Danke.
>> 
>> Mit freundlichen Grüßen
>> Hans-Georg Boyken
>> Titonka, IA 50480-0269, USA
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Reinhard J. Freytag" <Reinhard.Freytag(a)t-online.de>
>> To: "Niedersachsen(a)genealogy.net" <FamNord(a)genealogy.net>
>> Cc: <Hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
>> Sent: Friday, February 07, 2003 5:12 AM
>> Subject: [HN] Das alte Europa und Rumsfeld´s Vorfahren
>> 
>> 
>> Ich finde, folgendes passt in unsere Genealogie-Runde:
>> 
>> 
>> Die Vorfahren von Herrn Rumsfeld (kann ein Kriegsminister einen besseren
>> Namen haben?) stammen aus dem alten Europa, Norddeutschland. Sein
>> Ururgroßvater ist 1866 mit 6 Kindern in die USA ausgewandert, seine
>> Genalogie ist bekannt. Als Herr Rumsfeld in der 70er noch Nato-Botschafter
>> in Europa war und auch danach in seiner ersten Zeit als
>> Verteidigungsminister unter Vater Bush kam er regelmäßig in den Ort zu den
>> dort noch lebenden Rumsfelds zu Besuch. Das wird er heute ungern hören, ist
>> aber belegt.
>> --
>> Mit freundlichen Grüßen aus Göttingen
>> Reinhard J. Freytag
>> 
> ===========================================================================
> Uwe Schärff     Falenbek 8     DE-22149 Hamburg-Rahlstedt
> 'fax (0049) 040 - 669 09 950   ePost: uwe.schaerff(a)t-online.de
> ===========================================================================
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Hannover-L mailing list
> Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l



[HN] Hannoverian/Westphalian Mercenaries in U.S.War of 1812

Date: 2003/02/10 17:54:41
From: JAMES0319 <JAMES0319(a)aol.com>

Does anyone know if there were many mercenaries in this war?If so, can you 
identify specific units from Westphalia that were located in Pennsylvania, 
New Jersey and New2 York or that area? Also, is there a list for such 
information? Thanks.Jim


Re: [HN] Das alte Europa und Rumsfeld´sVorfahren

Date: 2003/02/10 20:00:05
From: Sophie Gottemoller <sgottemoller(a)dol.net>

While that may be true, there are also many of us in the United States
who believe that those who do not learn from History and destined to
have to repeat the experience.  Appeasement did not work with Hitler or
Stalin and will not work with someone else who is determined to make his
mark in History, whether he is from Iraq or Korea. Sorry to be off topic
but there are two sides to all arguments.
Sophie Gottemoller

Barbara Stewart wrote:
> 
> Hello,
>     I am very curious what all these letters about Donald Rumsfeld are
> about.  I used an online translator and it obviously is something about
> Rumsfeld's ancestors or relatives.  Would anyone care to let us know in
> English?  I realize this is not the proper forum, but I do want to say that
> there are many, many Americans as  opposed  to this impending  war as
> Germany and other Europeans are.
> Thank you,
> Barbara Stewart
> 
> n 2/10/03 1:33 AM, Uwe ErichsSohn at Uwe.Schaerff(a)t-online.de wrote:
> 
> > Dazu im Hamburger Abendblatt vom 10.02.03 (Seite 4 mit Foto):
> >
> >
> > "Früher war er netter"
> > Besuch bei Margarete Rumsfeld, Verwandte des
> > US-Ministers, im Kreis Diepholz.
> >
> > Weyhe-Sudweyhe - Die alte Dame ist enttäuscht. "Früher
> > war er viel netter." Jetzt jedoch findet die 85-Jährige nur
> > noch wenig lobende Worte über den Amerikaner. "So etwas
> > macht man nicht, das grenzt an Beleidigung", beurteilt
> > Margarete Rumsfeld, die nächste deutsche Verwandte von
> > US-Verteidigungsminister Donald Rumsfeld, die jüngsten
> > Attacken des US-Politikers. Rumsfeld hatte Deutschland im
> > Zusammenhang mit der Irak-Krise mehrfach heftig kritisiert
> > und dabei auch in eine Reihe mit Kuba und Libyen gestellt.
> > Der letzte Besuch des Verteidigungsministers im Geburtsort
> > seiner Vorfahren, dem nahe Bremen gelegenen
> > Weyhe-Sudweyhe, ist 26 Jahre her. "Eigentlich ist es ja die
> > Familie meines verstorbenen Mannes", schränkt Margarete
> > Rumsfeld immer wieder ein. Doch den ersten Besuch des
> > Verwandten aus dem fernen Amerika hat sie so lebhaft in
> > Erinnerung, als sei es gestern gewesen: "Irgendwann stand
> > er 1972 hier wie ein typischer Amerikaner - karierte Hose,
> > offenes Hemd." Damals war er noch nicht der Herr über ein
> > Heer von Panzern, sondern fuhr in einem geliehenen
> > VW-Käfer. Jetzt, wo er die Macht über Krieg und Frieden in
> > der Hand hält, stellt Margarete Rumsfeld fest: "Er ist alt
> > geworden. Und hart."
> >
> > Während heute bei der deutschen Verwandten
> > Verständnislosigkeit über die Äußerungen des
> > US-Verteidigungsministers herrscht, waren es seinerzeit
> > Verständigungsschwierigkeiten: Er konnte kein Deutsch, sie
> > kein Englisch. Immerhin waren die Vorfahren des Politikers
> > schon 1866 aus Deutschland ausgewandert. Erst beim
> > dritten und bislang letzten Besuch 1976 war ein intensiveres
> > Gespräch möglich: "Da hatte er einen Dolmetscher dabei."
> >
> > Dass Rumsfeld eine politische Laufbahn fernab der friedlichen
> > Felder in der norddeutschen Tiefebene eingeschlagen hatte,
> > bekam seinerzeit das ganze Dorf zu spüren:
> > "Sicherheitsbeamte haben hier alles kontrolliert, sogar das
> > Haus inspiziert." Denn derjenige, der sich mit seinen
> > deutschen Verwandten zum Schweinebraten an den
> > Esstisch setzte, war inzwischen Verteidigungsminister der
> > US-Regierung unter Präsident Gerald Ford.
> >
> > Obwohl Rumsfeld immer wieder in offizieller Mission wie jetzt
> > bei der Münchner Sicherheitskonferenz nach Deutschland
> > kommt, hegt Margarete Rumsfeld keine Hoffnung, ihn noch
> > einmal persönlich zu sehen. Dabei könnte sie im eigenen
> > Haus ein Beispiel für die friedliche Koexistenz verschiedener
> > Nationen bieten: Die 85-Jährige ist gebürtige Dänin, ihr
> > Schwiegersohn Italiener.
> >
> > "Vor zwei Jahren hat er uns noch geschrieben, dass er uns
> > nicht vergisst", schüttelt Margarete Rumsfeld den Kopf.
> > Heute bekäme er Worte zu hören, die er nicht vergessen
> > sollte: "Dem würde ich eine Standpauke halten." dpa
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Boyken & Boyken Partners schrieb am 07.02.03:
> >>
> >> Sehr geehrter Freitag,
> >>
> >> würden Sie bitte den Listenmitgliedern die Namen des Ururgroßvaters, des
> >> Urgroßvaters, des Großvaters des Herrn  Donald Rumsfeld  nennen. Danke.
> >>
> >> Mit freundlichen Grüßen
> >> Hans-Georg Boyken
> >> Titonka, IA 50480-0269, USA
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Reinhard J. Freytag" <Reinhard.Freytag(a)t-online.de>
> >> To: "Niedersachsen(a)genealogy.net" <FamNord(a)genealogy.net>
> >> Cc: <Hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
> >> Sent: Friday, February 07, 2003 5:12 AM
> >> Subject: [HN] Das alte Europa und Rumsfeld´s Vorfahren
> >>
> >>
> >> Ich finde, folgendes passt in unsere Genealogie-Runde:
> >>
> >>
> >> Die Vorfahren von Herrn Rumsfeld (kann ein Kriegsminister einen besseren
> >> Namen haben?) stammen aus dem alten Europa, Norddeutschland. Sein
> >> Ururgroßvater ist 1866 mit 6 Kindern in die USA ausgewandert, seine
> >> Genalogie ist bekannt. Als Herr Rumsfeld in der 70er noch Nato-Botschafter
> >> in Europa war und auch danach in seiner ersten Zeit als
> >> Verteidigungsminister unter Vater Bush kam er regelmäßig in den Ort zu den
> >> dort noch lebenden Rumsfelds zu Besuch. Das wird er heute ungern hören, ist
> >> aber belegt.
> >> --
> >> Mit freundlichen Grüßen aus Göttingen
> >> Reinhard J. Freytag
> >>
> > ===========================================================================
> > Uwe Schärff     Falenbek 8     DE-22149 Hamburg-Rahlstedt
> > 'fax (0049) 040 - 669 09 950   ePost: uwe.schaerff(a)t-online.de
> > ===========================================================================
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Hannover-L mailing list
> > Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> > http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Hannover-L mailing list
> Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l



Re: [HN] Das alte Europa und RumsfeldsVorfahren

Date: 2003/02/10 20:41:06
From: J B <johnbrene(a)hotmail.com>

Barbara is right. I am very conservative by nature and even in most of my political views, and yet am opposed to the administration on the their hell bent desire to send our troops off to do battle in the Middle East once again. Often times our government thinks or acts one way, the citizenry (or much of it anyways) another.

Jb
johnbrene(a)hotmail.com



    I am very curious what all these letters about Donald Rumsfeld are
about.  I used an online translator and it obviously is something about
Rumsfeld's ancestors or relatives.  Would anyone care to let us know in
English?  I realize this is not the proper forum, but I do want to say that
there are many, many Americans as  opposed  to this impending  war as
Germany and other Europeans are.
Thank you,
Barbara Stewart


_________________________________________________________________
Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail



Re: [HN] Das alte Europa und RumsfeldsVorfahren

Date: 2003/02/10 20:48:19
From: J B <johnbrene(a)hotmail.com>

Sophie,
You choose to use as examples Stalin and Hitler, and now Korea and Iraq. Why is it so different when we, as a country, go after our perceived enemies, as opposed to when others do? Is it simply that righteousness is always on our side? Do you suppose it might just be that we're capable of carrying a bully's stick too, especially as viewed by others? Do we really have a holy mandate to make the world exactly as we prefer it, and to place a McDonalds on every corner of the globe?

Jb
johnbrene(a)hotmail.com


While that may be true, there are also many of us in the United States
who believe that those who do not learn from History and destined to
have to repeat the experience.  Appeasement did not work with Hitler or
Stalin and will not work with someone else who is determined to make his
mark in History, whether he is from Iraq or Korea. Sorry to be off topic
but there are two sides to all arguments.
Sophie Gottemoller


_________________________________________________________________
STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail



[HN] Question???

Date: 2003/02/10 21:56:47
From: cfws <cfws(a)juno.com>

How did this genealogy page get changed to a political page.  This is the
kind of stuff that you can find on every TV channel.  Please leave this
one peaceful and friendly web site for genealogy.

Chuck Feld


Re: [HN] Das alte Europa und Rumsfeld´sVorfahren

Date: 2003/02/10 22:00:20
From: Doug Plowman <dplowman(a)newnorth.net>

Please stick to genealogy on this list.

Thanks


----- Original Message -----
From: "J B" <johnbrene(a)hotmail.com>
To: <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
Sent: Monday, February 10, 2003 1:48 PM
Subject: Re: [HN] Das alte Europa und Rumsfeld´sVorfahren


>
> Sophie,
> You choose to use as examples Stalin and Hitler, and now Korea and Iraq.
Why
> is it so different when we, as a country, go after our perceived enemies,
as
> opposed to when others do? Is it simply that righteousness is always on
our
> side? Do you suppose it might just be that we're capable of carrying a
> bully's stick too, especially as viewed by others? Do we really have a
holy
> mandate to make the world exactly as we prefer it, and to place a
McDonalds
> on every corner of the globe?
>
> Jb
> johnbrene(a)hotmail.com
>
>
> >While that may be true, there are also many of us in the United States
> >who believe that those who do not learn from History and destined to
> >have to repeat the experience.  Appeasement did not work with Hitler or
> >Stalin and will not work with someone else who is determined to make his
> >mark in History, whether he is from Iraq or Korea. Sorry to be off topic
> >but there are two sides to all arguments.
> >Sophie Gottemoller
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*
> http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Hannover-L mailing list
> Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l
>




Re: [HN] Question???

Date: 2003/02/10 22:13:21
From: J B <johnbrene(a)hotmail.com>

Of course you are right re this forum.
Barbara, as this may now be cut short, perhaps the following will help answer your original question.

"PAPER: Rumsfeld has been disowned by his anti-war relatives in north Germany..." (far right hand column)

http://www.drudgereport.com


Jb


How did this genealogy page get changed to a political page.  This is the
kind of stuff that you can find on every TV channel.  Please leave this
one peaceful and friendly web site for genealogy.

Chuck Feld


_________________________________________________________________
Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963



Re: [HN] Das alte Europa und Rumsfeld´sVorfahren

Date: 2003/02/10 22:52:33
From: Dem13 <Dem13(a)aol.com>

To All:

Let's please try and keep our topic limited to genealogy.  I thought the article on Rumsfeld's genealogy was interesting, but was concerned we might get off topic.  

I'm sure we all have strong opinions one way or the other, but this is not the place to discuss them.  

Thanks for your help,
Don Meyer
Co-list administrator


Re: [HN] Das alte Europa und Rumsfeld´sVorfahren

Date: 2003/02/10 23:00:43
From: Juergen Drees <J.Drees(a)gmx.net>

[Deutsche Version weiter unten.]

Hello all!

Sophie Gottemoller wrote:
> [...] Sorry to be off topic
> but there are two sides to all arguments.

Now that all of us have heared both sides, please let's stop this
argument. 

This is not the proper list for any politic arguments. Hannover-L
mailing list is for genealogical purposes only.

Kind regards, 

Juergen
Co-Administrator of Hannover-L
---------- deutsche Version: -----------------------

Hallo zusammen,

nachdem jetzt sowohl Sophie als auch Barbara ihre Position zur
Irak-Frage dargelegt haben, möchte ich alle bitten, diese Diskussion
zu beenden. 

Diese Liste ist nicht der richtige Ort für irgendwelche politischen
Diskussionen. Die Hannover-L E-Mail-Liste ist nur für genealogische
Themen gedacht.


Viele Grüße, 

Juergen
Co-Administrator der Hannover-L E-Mail-Liste
-- 
-------------------=======######======-------------------
Juergen Drees                          38106 Braunschweig
mailto:J.Drees(a)tu-bs.de               Deutschland/Germany


Re: [HN] Das alte Europa und Rumsfeld ´sVorfahren

Date: 2003/02/10 23:11:15
From: XAMUSED <XAMUSED(a)aol.com>

In a message dated 2/10/03 4:54:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, Dem13(a)aol.com 
writes:

> I'm sure we all have strong opinions one way or the other, but this is not 
> the place to discuss them.  
> 

THANK YOU!!!


[HN] Rieman in Baltimore

Date: 2003/02/11 12:39:56
From: CHaupt <chg.C.Haupt(a)t-online.de>

Hallo Mr. Myer,

Vielen Dank für die Information über RIEMANs in Baltimore.

Leider weiß ich aus alten Unterlagen (ein Stammbaum aus der Familie meiner Großmutter) heraus nur, dass ein RIEMANN Sohn nach Windsor gegangen ist. Ob von den Kindern oder Enkeln jemand nach Baltimore ausgewandert ist, weiss ich leider nicht. Oder sollte es auch in Maryland ein "Windsor" geben?
Aber vielleicht liest jemand der mir weiterhelfen kann diese Mail. Ich freue mich über jede weiterführende Information.


Many thanks for the infromation about RIEMAN in Baltimore.

The old family tree of my grandmothers family shows only, that a RIEMANN son moved to Windsor. I do not know if a son or grandson moved to Baltimore. Or is there are a "Windsor" in Maryland, too?
I appreciate every additional information.


Thanks again,

	Christoph Haupt


-- 
Haupt'S finden&suchen
Christoph Haupt
Sehnder Str. 28
D-30559 Hannover
TEL: +511 522313
FAX: +511 8793208
eMail: chg.C.Haupt(a)t-online.de
www.haupt-researcher.de


"Gary E. Myer" <bruggeym(a)bcpl.net> schrieb:
> Herr Haupt,
> 
> Ist es möglich, dass diese RIEMANNs über England weiter nach Baltimore 
> auswanderten?  Eine Familie RIEMAN(n) taucht in der frühen Geschichte 
> Baltimores auf (circa 1800?) und wurde zu einer der angesehenen Familien 
> deutscher Herkunft in dieser Hafenstadt.  (Sie sind nicht mit mir 
> verwandt, aber der Name ist mir oft in meinen Forschungen aufgefallen.)
> 
> --Gary

Re: [HN] Lintorf, Wittlage

Date: 2003/02/11 15:31:15
From: MagdalenaJLM <MagdalenaJLM(a)aol.com>

I have a BARLAG from the Lintorf, Wittlage area.
Have a Nice Day!  Jill

I am currently researching the following names:
Barlag,Bochenski,Bogdanski,Brinkmann,Ciesielski,CieszkiewiezDrehs,Dress,Dufelm

eyer,Dufelmeier,Fuelling/Fulling,Frese,Hunken,K/Clintwood,Hirschy,Jalonski,Kam

inski,Kozielecki,Kozielewski,Kurgan,Leimkuehler,Leimenkuhler,Mazgaj,Mesch,Obyc

,Ostmeier/Ostmeyer,Obrock,Piechalski,Poertner,Pranten,Quell,Rak,Reker,Redecker

,Speckmann,Thiessecharpen/Thieschaper,Thunhorst,Viel/Viets,Winteregg,Wistingha

usen,Zinzack, Zynczak,Zinczak
Jill Leimkuehler









(MagdalenaJLM(a)aol.com)


Re: [HN] Rabber. Wittlage,Hustadte, Barkhausen

Date: 2003/02/11 20:17:18
From: Kilowat357 <Kilowat357(a)aol.com>

Lee

I think I have written you before, about your Buschers.  I have the German 
language book which is a history of Huesede, a village in Kreis Wittlage, 
which is right next door to Rabber and Barkhausen, near Bad Essen.  It has 
several female Bueschers in it who are apparently widows with many children 
each; no males.  Village census c. 1800.

I had seen earlier queries about your village named "Hustadte," and wondered 
if that could have meant "Huesede."  Because of the proximity, and the 
Buscher names there, perhaps you should consider that place in addition to 
"Hustadte."

Kayle


Re: [HN] Rabber. Wittlage,Hustadte, Barkhausen

Date: 2003/02/11 20:31:34
From: Kilowat357 <Kilowat357(a)aol.com>

Lee, Marilyn and others --

I find it interesting that a number of people from this area (mine were from 
Huesede, Kreis Wittlage) were gravitating to the Cleveland area in 
mid-1860's.  I have Moellenbrock, Goecke, and some unidentified Westerfeld 
(with Barkhausen connections) coming to Cleveland's west side in Sept. 1865.  
As mentioned previously, there were some Buscher females also living in 
Huesede, and I have contact with a person from that same area with a Huge 
ancestor.

I wonder what kind of publicity about Cleveland was going around which 
attracted these particular folks from this area of Germany.  Anyone know?  

It may have been just simple "chain migration," whereby one person goes there 
and writes letters back to his friends and relatives in the area.  Or there 
may have been a particular kind of work or occupation that attracted them.  
My ancestors were farmers and (women) weavers and woodworkers (spinning 
wheels, wooden shoes) in Wittlage, eking out a living on a small family plot 
in Germany.  

By 1866 one (Moellenbrock) is listed as "ship's carpenter," living in 
Cleveland.  This one moved westward through the "suburbs" and eventually 
bought farmland in Olmsted Falls and raised his family there.

I'd be interested to know your ancestors' occupations and/or your theories as 
to why your people from this area chose the Cleveland area -- if you know.

Kayle Brooks
San Diego CA     


Re: [HN] Rabber. Wittlage,Hustadte, Barkhausen

Date: 2003/02/11 21:58:32
From: MagdalenaJLM <MagdalenaJLM(a)aol.com>

Kayle, Could you look up the surname Barlag in your Wittlage book?  Lintorf 
area.
Have a Nice Day!  Jill
I am currently researching the following names:
Barlag,Bochenski,Bogdanski,Brinkmann,Ciesielski,CieszkiewiezDrehs,Dress,Dufelm

eyer,Dufelmeier,Fuelling/Fulling,Frese,Hunken,K/Clintwood,Hirschy,Jalonski,Kam

inski,Kozielecki,Kozielewski,Kurgan,Leimkuehler,Leimenkuhler,Mazgaj,Mesch,Obyc

,Ostmeier/Ostmeyer,Obrock,Piechalski,Poertner,Pranten,Quell,Rak,Reker,Redecker

,Speckmann,Thiessecharpen/Thieschaper,Thunhorst,Viel/Viets,Winteregg,Wistingha

usen,Zinzack, Zynczak,Zinczak
Jill Leimkuehler









(MagdalenaJLM(a)aol.com)


[HN] Rumsfeld Great-Grandfather from Sudwehye

Date: 2003/02/12 05:59:26
From: Maureen <mcshelly2(a)msn.com>

t r u t h o u t - Police Braced for Munich Protest Against RumsfeldGo To
Original

Police Braced for Munich Protest Against Rumsfeld
From Roger Boyes in Berlin
Friday 07 February 2003

Four thousand policemen have been drafted into the centre of Munich as
protesters from across Germany and Switzerland gathered for the arrival of
Donald Rumsfeld, the US Defence Secretary.

Demonstrators are threatening to set fire to his effigy in the snow-covered
square outside the hotel where he is staying for an international security
conference. He caused outrage after he told the House Armed Services
Committee that the Germans, like Libya and Cuba, had indicated that they
"did not want to help in any way'' in the efforts to tackle Iraq.

The US State Department warned Americans yesterday to avoid visiting Munich
over the next few days. But the Social Democratic mayor, Christian Ude,
dismissed the warning as ridiculous. "No American citizen has to worry about
his or her safety here. There will merely be criticism of the US
Government,'' he said.

Even so, the fact that Munich now counts as unsafe for Americans along with
Iraq, Iran, Libya and Yemen has taken the Germans aback. Suddenly, they see
themselves being edged towards pariah status.

Hence the public irritation about Mr Rumsfeld's comments to the House Armed
Services Committee.

Mr Rumsfeld, who is rapidly emerging as the hate figure of the European
peace movement, will be the first to address the conference tomorrow
morning. He will be followed by Joschka Fischer, the German Foreign
Minister. Gerhard Schröder, the Chancellor, has refused to attend.

Shortly after being nominated as US Defence Secretary, Mr Rumsfeld used the
annual security conference to plead for a national missile defence system.
His argument, which referred to the system as a "moral imperative'',
disturbed many Europeans, who interpreted it as meaning that Washington
would not seek international consensus.

Last year the conference, held in the wake of the September 11 attacks, saw
a broad consensus, including Russia and China, on the need to uproot
terrorism. This time there is likely to be an all-out transatlantic row. By
most accounts, it will be the toughest confrontation since the 1980s, when
many Germans were resisting the stationing of US missiles on their soil.

Mr Rumsfeld has already set out his reservations about "old Europe'', led by
France and Germany, and his enthusiasm for the "new'' Europeans, including
Britain, Spain and Poland. The Germans interpret this as an attempt by the
US to splinter any endeavour to forge a common European foreign policy on
Iraq. Herr Fischer and Peter Struck, the Defence Minister, ostentatiously
snubbed by Mr Rumsfeld on two earlier occasions in the past six months, will
be batting for their government. At least some of the 30 foreign and defence
ministers attending the conference are expected to side with Germany.

Mr Rumsfeld can count on support from the many US senators accompanying him,
including John McCain and Joseph Lieberman.
The German dismay about Mr Rumsfeld is partly influenced by the fact that he
is the one senior member of the Bush Administration with German roots. In
1972 the Chicago-born politician was appointed Nato Ambassador to Brussels,
and during his posting undertook some research into his European roots. He
discovered that his great-grandfather emigrated to America from the north
German village of Sudwehye.

Mr Rumsfeld visited his family and struck up friendly relations. This time,
the family is not so sure. "He is just a defence minister for us now,''
Margarete Rumsfeld, 85, a cousin, said. "He should make damn sure not to
start a war.''

Gunter Beckstein, the Bavarian Interior Minister, said that police would be
on the lookout for troublemakers at the demonstration. "We will not wait
until someone breaks a window. We will move in fast and hard,'' he said.

Frontier police have already started picking up potential protesters at the
railway station and stopping cars on the approach to Munich. Many of the
protesters see Munich as a pit-stop between the antiglobalisation protests
in Davos and the planned anti-war rally in Berlin on February 15.

|


Re: [HN] Rabber. Wittlage,Hustadte, Barkhausen

Date: 2003/02/12 07:12:53
From: mstulken <mstulken(a)discover-net.net>

Hi, Kayle.  Maybe my ancestors wrote yours and said "C'mon over!"  Mine were in
southeatern Indiana--Bear Creek and Farmers Retreat--around 1850.  I think the
Prante line were "Heurlings," but I still haven't got anywhere with the
Möller/Finingsmeyers from Barkhausen/Wittlage.  I have an address to write to
when I get a chance, but haven't got the chance, yet.  I'd guess that they were
also small farmers or something like that.  All of them farmed when they got to
Indiana.  I don't know what motivated my ancestors to emigrate.  I do know that
there was a whole boatload that came from the Buer area (in 1843, if I remember
correctly).  Some distant relatives were on that boat, so I'm sure that had a
lot to do with where my ancestors settled.

I'll bet you're warmer out there than we are.  It's hovering around zero, with a
20-below wind chill.  I hate winter.

Cheers!
Marilyn Stulken
Racine WI

Kilowat357(a)aol.com wrote:

> Lee, Marilyn and others --
>
> I find it interesting that a number of people from this area (mine were from
> Huesede, Kreis Wittlage) were gravitating to the Cleveland area in
> mid-1860's.  I have Moellenbrock, Goecke, and some unidentified Westerfeld
> (with Barkhausen connections) coming to Cleveland's west side in Sept. 1865.
> As mentioned previously, there were some Buscher females also living in
> Huesede, and I have contact with a person from that same area with a Huge
> ancestor.
>
> I wonder what kind of publicity about Cleveland was going around which
> attracted these particular folks from this area of Germany.  Anyone know?
>
> It may have been just simple "chain migration," whereby one person goes there
> and writes letters back to his friends and relatives in the area.  Or there
> may have been a particular kind of work or occupation that attracted them.
> My ancestors were farmers and (women) weavers and woodworkers (spinning
> wheels, wooden shoes) in Wittlage, eking out a living on a small family plot
> in Germany.
>
> By 1866 one (Moellenbrock) is listed as "ship's carpenter," living in
> Cleveland.  This one moved westward through the "suburbs" and eventually
> bought farmland in Olmsted Falls and raised his family there.
>
> I'd be interested to know your ancestors' occupations and/or your theories as
> to why your people from this area chose the Cleveland area -- if you know.
>
> Kayle Brooks
> San Diego CA
>
> _______________________________________________
> Hannover-L mailing list
> Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l



Re: [HN] Rumsfeld Great-Grandfather from Sudwehye

Date: 2003/02/12 15:35:52
From: Boyken & Boyken Partners <frisian(a)netins.net>

Hello,

The article in the "Hamburger Abendblatt" on February 10, 2003 was
interesting for many readers.  T h i s   following article has nothing to do
with genealogy ! The mailing list is only for   g e n e a l o g y  , not for
politics!

Sincerely,
Hans-Georg Boyken
- Genealogist -
_______________________________

----- Original Message -----
From: "Maureen" <mcshelly2(a)msn.com>
To: <NIEDERSACHSEN-L(a)rootsweb.com>; <GERMAN-AMERICAN-L(a)rootsweb.com>;
<hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2003 10:55 PM
Subject: [HN] Rumsfeld Great-Grandfather from Sudwehye


> t r u t h o u t - Police Braced for Munich Protest Against RumsfeldGo To
> Original
>
> Police Braced for Munich Protest Against Rumsfeld
> From Roger Boyes in Berlin
> Friday 07 February 2003
>
> Four thousand policemen have been drafted into the centre of Munich as
> protesters from across Germany and Switzerland gathered for the arrival of
> Donald Rumsfeld, the US Defence Secretary.
>
> Demonstrators are threatening to set fire to his effigy in the
snow-covered
> square outside the hotel where he is staying for an international security
> conference. He caused outrage after he told the House Armed Services
> Committee that the Germans, like Libya and Cuba, had indicated that they
> "did not want to help in any way'' in the efforts to tackle Iraq.
>
> The US State Department warned Americans yesterday to avoid visiting
Munich
> over the next few days. But the Social Democratic mayor, Christian Ude,
> dismissed the warning as ridiculous. "No American citizen has to worry
about
> his or her safety here. There will merely be criticism of the US
> Government,'' he said.
>
> Even so, the fact that Munich now counts as unsafe for Americans along
with
> Iraq, Iran, Libya and Yemen has taken the Germans aback. Suddenly, they
see
> themselves being edged towards pariah status.
>
> Hence the public irritation about Mr Rumsfeld's comments to the House
Armed
> Services Committee.
>
> Mr Rumsfeld, who is rapidly emerging as the hate figure of the European
> peace movement, will be the first to address the conference tomorrow
> morning. He will be followed by Joschka Fischer, the German Foreign
> Minister. Gerhard Schröder, the Chancellor, has refused to attend.
>
> Shortly after being nominated as US Defence Secretary, Mr Rumsfeld used
the
> annual security conference to plead for a national missile defence system.
> His argument, which referred to the system as a "moral imperative'',
> disturbed many Europeans, who interpreted it as meaning that Washington
> would not seek international consensus.
>
> Last year the conference, held in the wake of the September 11 attacks,
saw
> a broad consensus, including Russia and China, on the need to uproot
> terrorism. This time there is likely to be an all-out transatlantic row.
By
> most accounts, it will be the toughest confrontation since the 1980s, when
> many Germans were resisting the stationing of US missiles on their soil.
>
> Mr Rumsfeld has already set out his reservations about "old Europe'', led
by
> France and Germany, and his enthusiasm for the "new'' Europeans, including
> Britain, Spain and Poland. The Germans interpret this as an attempt by the
> US to splinter any endeavour to forge a common European foreign policy on
> Iraq. Herr Fischer and Peter Struck, the Defence Minister, ostentatiously
> snubbed by Mr Rumsfeld on two earlier occasions in the past six months,
will
> be batting for their government. At least some of the 30 foreign and
defence
> ministers attending the conference are expected to side with Germany.
>
> Mr Rumsfeld can count on support from the many US senators accompanying
him,
> including John McCain and Joseph Lieberman.
> The German dismay about Mr Rumsfeld is partly influenced by the fact that
he
> is the one senior member of the Bush Administration with German roots. In
> 1972 the Chicago-born politician was appointed Nato Ambassador to
Brussels,
> and during his posting undertook some research into his European roots. He
> discovered that his great-grandfather emigrated to America from the north
> German village of Sudwehye.
>
> Mr Rumsfeld visited his family and struck up friendly relations. This
time,
> the family is not so sure. "He is just a defence minister for us now,''
> Margarete Rumsfeld, 85, a cousin, said. "He should make damn sure not to
> start a war.''
>
> Gunter Beckstein, the Bavarian Interior Minister, said that police would
be
> on the lookout for troublemakers at the demonstration. "We will not wait
> until someone breaks a window. We will move in fast and hard,'' he said.
>
> Frontier police have already started picking up potential protesters at
the
> railway station and stopping cars on the approach to Munich. Many of the
> protesters see Munich as a pit-stop between the antiglobalisation protests
> in Davos and the planned anti-war rally in Berlin on February 15.
>
> |
>
> _______________________________________________
> Hannover-L mailing list
> Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l



Re: [HN] Rumsfeld Great-Grandfather from Sudwehye

Date: 2003/02/12 16:18:29
From: Fred Rump <fredrump(a)earthlink.net>

On 12 Feb 2003 at 8:34, Boyken & Boyken Partners wrote:

> 
> Hello,
> 
> The article in the "Hamburger Abendblatt" on February 10, 2003 was
> interesting for many readers.  T h i s   following article has nothing
> to do with genealogy ! The mailing list is only for   g e n e a l o g
> y  , not for politics!
> 
> Sincerely,
> Hans-Georg Boyken
> - Genealogist -

Oddly enough you reposted the very same article all over again. It 
now sits in the archives twice.

Fred

4788 Corian Court
Naples, FL 34114
239-775-7838; 239-269-4781 (cell) 
FredRump(a)earthlink.net





Re: [HN] Rumsfeld Great-Grandfather from Sudwehye

Date: 2003/02/12 18:22:21
From: Robert F. Niehaus <rniehaus(a)mindspring.com>

This mail list is for genealogical concerns, not politics.
_______________________________________________
> Hannover-L mailing list
> Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l



[HN] Copyright / Urheberrecht

Date: 2003/02/12 19:16:42
From: Werner Honkomp <Werner.Honkomp(a)t-online.de>

Liebe Listenteilnehmer,

vielen Dank für die Auskünfte zur Fragestellung des "Urheberrechts", mit meiner Annahme liege ich also im Trend.

Dear Listmembers,

many thanks for the information for the question of the "copyright", particularly to Don. With my assumption, so I lie in the trend.

Thank you,
Werner Honkomp
--------------------------------------------------
Werner Honkomp                       werner.honkomp(a)t-online.de
Ziegelhofstr. 35b                         www.honkomp.de
26121 Oldenburg                        Tel: 0441-87230, Fax: 0441-883499


[HN] list admin said no politics on list

Date: 2003/02/12 21:21:19
From: ... valentine53179 <valentine53179(a)hotmail.com>

list admin YESTERDAY SAID
no politics on list.
so what do we see on list today, BUT  at least three more posts and now mine
in this email!

it does seem that many people are reading their list mail in chronological
order..
might I suggest that you switch your sequence on l-I-s-t-s to:
 last is read first.
if you do this,
you'll see the most recent message PLUS the first messages - usually- and
when you finally to get to the original message you can simply delete it.

in this way you will not be answering something that many before you
answered in the same way, or advocating no politics on list even after list
admin said THAT IS IT, NO MORE!
V


[HN] Werries Wallenhorst-Lechtingen

Date: 2003/02/12 22:57:06
From: Werner Honkomp <Werner.Honkomp(a)t-online.de>

I search for a friend this emigrated persons:

Franz-Heinrich Werries, born 8.Oct.1806 in Lechtingen and the brother Johann-Heinrich Werries, born 13.Febr.1811 in Lechtingen near Wallenhorst in Osnabrück county.
They emigrated after Oct.1840.

Later it came a letter from Fort Jennings Ohio

Franz-Heinrich Werries married in the States and hat two daughters:

- Maria Agnes, married to Johann Bertling of Ladbergen in the States
- Maria Werdina, married to Josef Gerdemann

Have anyone an idea?

Werner Honkomp
--------------------------------------------------
Werner Honkomp                       werner.honkomp(a)t-online.de
Ziegelhofstr. 35b                         www.honkomp.de
26121 Oldenburg                        Tel: 0441-87230, Fax: 0441-883499


Re: [HN] Rabber. Wittlage,Hustadte, Barkhausen

Date: 2003/02/13 00:58:10
From: Kilowat357 <Kilowat357(a)aol.com>

Jill

There are no Barlag's on the Huesede 1808 list, but there are "Obrok," 
"Fuelling" and "Tieschaper" there.  Does that help?

Kayle


Re: [HN] Rabber. Wittlage,Hustadte, Barkhausen

Date: 2003/02/13 01:05:21
From: Kilowat357 <Kilowat357(a)aol.com>

Marilyn & others

Thanks for input on the "why pick this area" question.  I'm still scratching 
my head over Cleveland, as so many went first to Cincinnati and/or southern 
Indiana.  

Am wondering if this change of destination had to do with the opening of the 
Great Lakes area, and transportation in that direction from New York -- as 
opposed to the earlier trend to stay near the Ohio River and its steamboats.  
Or maybe it had something to do with where the best (new?) railroad lines 
and/or ship lines were.

Kayle  


Re: [HN] SCHROEDER / SCHRADER? Any in St. Louis? 1860?

Date: 2003/02/13 01:53:54
From: Sandra Powell <sandrapowell(a)cableone.net>

Barb,

Don't worry about overlooking the reference to my Schroeder family being
Lutheran.  To my knowledge they were Lutheran, but I've had other surprises
in researching various family lines.  Anyway, I thoroughly enjoyed reading
about the Shrine of St. Joseph Church.

Actually, I have been puzzled about my g grandfather's obit.  According to
the obituary, the funeral service was in the Presbyterian Church in Hooks,
Texas, and named in a long list of  honorary pallbearers was the Men's Bible
Class of the First Presbyterian Church, Texarkana, Arkansas.  Hooks is about
15 miles from Texarkana, and the family, at one point, lived in Texarkana.
Charles H. Schroeder died in 1937 before I was born, but I have been talking
with my aunt and two cousins, trying to record everything they remember
about their grandparents.  Their explanation is that because Hooks didn't
have a Lutheran Church, the Presbyterian Church was used.  .......Logical,
but it doesn't explain the honorary pallbearer item.  I hope the Texarkana
church has old records that will help me sort this out.

I really appreciate your advice, and the Shrine of St. Joseph Church story.

Sandra

----- Original Message -----
From: "Cactus Flower" <barbie8674(a)hotmail.com>
To: <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
Sent: Friday, February 07, 2003 1:41 AM
Subject: Re: [HN] SCHROEDER / SCHRADER? Any in St. Louis? 1860?


Dear Sandra,

Eeks!  I didn't read your post very well.  You are looking for ancestors of
the Lutheran/Evangelical Faith.

Were all of your ancestors Lutheran?  I do have a family line that was both
Lutheran and Catholic. A few actually.

Barb









[HN] looking for new addy on geoff stuttard

Date: 2003/02/13 02:21:39
From: ... valentine53179 <valentine53179(a)hotmail.com>

looking for n-e-w addy on geoff stuttard who WAS at:

geoff.stuttard(a)cwcom.net via his world connect submission.



I've looked all over....

where are you geoff?



Re: [HN] SCHROEDER / SCHRADER? Any in St. Louis? 1860?

Date: 2003/02/13 02:41:18
From: mstulken <mstulken(a)discover-net.net>

Perhaps he became a part of the Men's Bible Class when he lieved in Texarkana,
enjoyed the friends he knew in the class and continued to go to the class--or,
at least, kept in touch with his friends--after he moved from Texarkana.
Marilyn

Sandra Powell wrote:

> Barb,
>
> Don't worry about overlooking the reference to my Schroeder family being
> Lutheran.  To my knowledge they were Lutheran, but I've had other surprises
> in researching various family lines.  Anyway, I thoroughly enjoyed reading
> about the Shrine of St. Joseph Church.
>
> Actually, I have been puzzled about my g grandfather's obit.  According to
> the obituary, the funeral service was in the Presbyterian Church in Hooks,
> Texas, and named in a long list of  honorary pallbearers was the Men's Bible
> Class of the First Presbyterian Church, Texarkana, Arkansas.  Hooks is about
> 15 miles from Texarkana, and the family, at one point, lived in Texarkana.
> Charles H. Schroeder died in 1937 before I was born, but I have been talking
> with my aunt and two cousins, trying to record everything they remember
> about their grandparents.  Their explanation is that because Hooks didn't
> have a Lutheran Church, the Presbyterian Church was used.  .......Logical,
> but it doesn't explain the honorary pallbearer item.  I hope the Texarkana
> church has old records that will help me sort this out.
>
> I really appreciate your advice, and the Shrine of St. Joseph Church story.
>
> Sandra
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Cactus Flower" <barbie8674(a)hotmail.com>
> To: <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
> Sent: Friday, February 07, 2003 1:41 AM
> Subject: Re: [HN] SCHROEDER / SCHRADER? Any in St. Louis? 1860?
>
> Dear Sandra,
>
> Eeks!  I didn't read your post very well.  You are looking for ancestors of
> the Lutheran/Evangelical Faith.
>
> Were all of your ancestors Lutheran?  I do have a family line that was both
> Lutheran and Catholic. A few actually.
>
> Barb
>
> _______________________________________________
> Hannover-L mailing list
> Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l



Re: [HN] Rabber. Wittlage,Hustadte, Barkhausen

Date: 2003/02/13 03:00:22
From: mstulken <mstulken(a)discover-net.net>

Hi, Kayle.

I don't have an answer to your question, but I entered a Google search for
Cleveland +Wittlage and found this interesting site:
http://www.migrations.org/county.php3?migpassed=Cleveland,%20Cuyahoga%20County,%20OH

It doesn't look like there was a large community from the Wittlage already
living in Cleveland to attract your people.  But perhaps the folks at
MIGRATIONS.org would have some ideas.

Marilyn

Kilowat357(a)aol.com wrote:

> Marilyn & others
>
> Thanks for input on the "why pick this area" question.  I'm still scratching
> my head over Cleveland, as so many went first to Cincinnati and/or southern
> Indiana.
>
> Am wondering if this change of destination had to do with the opening of the
> Great Lakes area, and transportation in that direction from New York -- as
> opposed to the earlier trend to stay near the Ohio River and its steamboats.
> Or maybe it had something to do with where the best (new?) railroad lines
> and/or ship lines were.
>
> Kayle
>
> _______________________________________________
> Hannover-L mailing list
> Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l



[HN] Barkhausen, Hustadte, Huesede, etc.

Date: 2003/02/13 17:24:01
From: Joel Poetker <jpoetker(a)earthlink.net>

    There seems to be some confusion about the some villages and parishes about in the area of Melle and Bad Essen  There are 5 Barkhausens but only 2 or 3 are in this area:  The address for one is Barkhausen of Kreis (county) Wittlage with the address 49152 Bad Essen-Barkhausen and this Barkhausen was the one with the parish church, St., Katherine, for the old Lutheran Parish Barkhausen-Wittlage.  The village of 49152 Bad Essen-Huesede is in the parish  and is very near to this Barkhausen.  

    Confusion is the fact that the parish of Buer directly on the south border of Barkhausen-Wittlage also has a Barkhausen, 49328 Melle-Barkhausen.  The parish church here is St. Martini in Buer.  This Barkhausen and the Bad Essen-Barkhausen are only about 2-3 miles apart.  

    And, there is 32758 Detmold-Barkhausen that I don't think is the for the people mentioned in your messages, it would not be impossible for it is only 10 or 12 miles to the east. 

    Huestadte is a small place in the northwest portion of Parish Buer and very close to Bad Essen-Barkhausen, and Huesede is in Barkhausen-Wittlage. 

    In my family families lived in all of these places so a family could easily have ancestors in all of these places.  I have had many Poetkers who lived in both Barkhausens and Huesede and Huestade. 

    The old Parish, sometimes it was Barkhausen-Rabber or Barkhausen-Wittlage are now divided in to the Lutheran Parishes of Huesede, Wittlage, Linne, Lintorf, Barkhausen along with other parishes in Kreis Bad Essen.  The parish of Buer  of Kreis Buer is the same except of a small east portion that is now part of Parish Roedinghausen.  

                                        Good luck with your research, 

                                                                    Prof. J. S. Poetker


Re: [HN] Werries Wallenhorst-Lechtingen

Date: 2003/02/13 19:11:30
From: Barbara Stewart <raymondg(a)attbi.com>

Hello Werner,  
    I found this page of the descendants of Johann Nicolas Werries of
Lechtingen. However, I would  guess that you already know about this:

This is a genealogy page for Karl Josef Schad :
     http://www.gencircles.com/users/kjschad/1

There is an email for him:
    kjschad(a)gmx.de

Barbara Stewart



on 2/12/03 2:56 PM, Werner Honkomp at Werner.Honkomp(a)t-online.de wrote:

> I search for a friend this emigrated persons:
> 
> Franz-Heinrich Werries, born 8.Oct.1806 in Lechtingen and the brother
> Johann-Heinrich Werries, born 13.Febr.1811 in Lechtingen near Wallenhorst in
> Osnabrück county.
> They emigrated after Oct.1840.
> 
> Later it came a letter from Fort Jennings Ohio
> 
> Franz-Heinrich Werries married in the States and hat two daughters:
> 
> - Maria Agnes, married to Johann Bertling of Ladbergen in the States
> - Maria Werdina, married to Josef Gerdemann
> 
> Have anyone an idea?
> 
> Werner Honkomp
> --------------------------------------------------
> Werner Honkomp                       werner.honkomp(a)t-online.de
> Ziegelhofstr. 35b                         www.honkomp.de
> 26121 Oldenburg                        Tel: 0441-87230, Fax: 0441-883499
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Hannover-L mailing list
> Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l



Re: [HN] Rabber. Wittlage,Hustadte, Barkhausen

Date: 2003/02/13 20:07:35
From: MagdalenaJLM <MagdalenaJLM(a)aol.com>

Kayle, Yes that does help,  Cath Elean Obrock married Jobst Heinrich 
Dueffelmeier and their child was Marie Elinore who married my Great, great, 
grandfather Johann Christopher Fulling/Fuelling born 1832 in Bad Essen, 
Harpenfiel, Germany.  Johan Christo, Fulling's father was Johann Frederick 
and mother was Marie Elizabeth Thieschaefer(spell?) 
What info do you have??
Have a Nice Day!  Jill
I am currently researching the following names:
Barlag,Bochenski,Bogdanski,Brinkmann,Ciesielski,CieszkiewiezDrehs,Dress,Dufelm

eyer,Dufelmeier,Fuelling/Fulling,Frese,Hunken,K/Clintwood,Hirschy,Jalonski,Kam

inski,Kozielecki,Kozielewski,Kurgan,Leimkuehler,Leimenkuhler,Mazgaj,Mesch,Obyc

,Ostmeier/Ostmeyer,Obrock,Piechalski,Poertner,Pranten,Quell,Rak,Reker,Redecker

,Speckmann,Thiessecharpen/Thieschaper,Thunhorst,Viel/Viets,Winteregg,Wistingha

usen,Zinzack, Zynczak,Zinczak
Jill Leimkuehler









(MagdalenaJLM(a)aol.com)


Re: [HN] Brockhausen and Wittlage

Date: 2003/02/13 20:14:30
From: mstulken <mstulken(a)discover-net.net>

Thank you for the information on Barkhausen, Hustadte, Huesede, etc.

Just out of curiosity:  How many Brockhausens are there in the same area?

Also, is there a village of Wittlage as well as a Kreis?  I'm looking at my EuroAtlas and there appears to be a village of Wittlage on highway 65, almost directly north of Melle.

Thanks,
Mariyn





[HN] Kirchenbuecher von Polle und Brevoerde

Date: 2003/02/13 21:57:00
From: Steffen Grimme <Steffen.Grimme(a)t-online.de>

In einer mehrjaehrigen Arbeit hat Herr Reinhard Nienstedt aus Kirchbrak die Kirchenbuecher von Polle und Brevoerde/Weser von 1690 bis ca. 1950 (Taufregister, Begraebnisregister, Konfirmations- register, Trauregister-teilweise) nach diversen Kriterien erfasst (nach Eintragung, nach Alphabet, nach Name des Vaters, der Mutter); allerdings keine wortgetreuen Abschriften. 
Herr Nienstedt hat seine Arbeit von mehreren hundert Seiten sowohl dem Pfarramt Polle als auch der AG Familienforschung des Heimat- und Geschichtsvereins für den Landkreis und die Stadt Holzminden e.V. zur Verfuegung gestellt.

Fuer Fragen stehen der Leiter der AG, Wolfgang Naegeler 
(W.F. Naegeler(a)gmx.de) und ich (Steffen.Grimme(a)t-online.de) gerne zur Verfuegung.

Mit freundlichen Gruessen

Steffen Grimme


[HN] KB von Polle und Brevoerde - Ergaenzung

Date: 2003/02/14 16:50:03
From: Steffen Grimme <Steffen.Grimme(a)t-online.de>

Ob der spaeten Stunde gestern abend habe ich mich etwas undifferenziert ausgedrueckt!
Der Bestand in der Bibliothek des HGV  und unsere moeglichen Auskuenfte orientieren sich selbstverstaendlich an den geltenden datenschutzrechtlichen Bestimmungen und haben dort ihre Grenze.

Mit freundlichen Gruessen

Steffen Grimme

---Ursprüngliche Nachricht---
From: "Steffen Grimme" <04136333-0001(a)T-Online.de>
To: <nlf(a)genealogy.net>,<hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>,<famnord(a)genealogy.net>
Subject: Kirchenbuecher von Polle und Brevoerde

In einer mehrjaehrigen Arbeit hat Herr Reinhard Nienstedt aus Kirchbrak die Kirchenbuecher von Polle und Brevoerde/Weser von 1690 bis ca. 1950 (Taufregister, Begraebnisregister, Konfirmations- register, Trauregister-teilweise) nach diversen Kriterien erfasst (nach Eintragung, nach Alphabet, nach Name des Vaters, der Mutter); allerdings keine wortgetreuen Abschriften. 
Herr Nienstedt hat seine Arbeit von mehreren hundert Seiten sowohl dem Pfarramt Polle als auch der AG Familienforschung des Heimat- und Geschichtsvereins für den Landkreis und die Stadt Holzminden e.V. zur Verfuegung gestellt.

Fuer Fragen stehen der Leiter der AG, Wolfgang Naegeler 
(W.F. Naegeler(a)gmx.de) und ich (Steffen.Grimme(a)t-online.de) gerne zur Verfuegung.

Mit freundlichen Gruessen

Steffen Grimme
------


[HN] village Twisselhop, Twiselhop- If I had only asked.

Date: 2003/02/14 18:48:05
From: gutt morgan <guttmorgan(a)hotmail.com>

I am a new member. I have a history of german Meyer,Behrens, Schultze, Schulz, Luhmann,Reinecke, Riess, Ries, Seil, Schmidt, Brookmann, Korn, Heins,, Koch, Winkelmann, Brase, Stratmann, Hencke, Brammer, Kothe,Meierhof, Hohls,Solter,Habermann,Arends,Kohrs,Schenck, Heinz, Koenig, Stille, Schmobel,and Fehring, Gunther, Nahnsen. I am sure I forgot a few. also looking for my fathers godparents. Gronewald and Louise Pragne family of Wells, mn. I posted the above village name because it was told to me many years ago. It was listed in the Bergen Church Records. Also, If i find that person who mentioned it , I would find many answers that he knew back then. If I had only asked.
More postings with questions later.
Jo Meyer




_________________________________________________________________
The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail



Re: [HN] village Twisselhop, Twiselhop- Henke surname

Date: 2003/02/14 19:06:47
From: MagdalenaJLM <MagdalenaJLM(a)aol.com>

My great, great, great, great grandmother was Florentina Hunke/Hunken/Hencke 
born about 1770 in Schlangen, Lippe, Germany, and died 2-10-1831 in 
Haustenbeck, Lippe, Germany.  Florentina married Johann Heinrich Adolf 
Leimenkuehler, born 9-17-1767, in Haustenbeck, # 29 resident.  Johann and 
Florentina were married 10-18-1789 in Haustenbeck.  Johann's father was 
Johann (Anton) ( Toens) Leimenkuehler.  Florentina's father was Joh? Con 
Hueke/Hunken.
Have a Nice Day!  Jill
I am currently researching the following names:
Barlag,Bochenski,Bogdanski,Brinkmann,Ciesielski,CieszkiewiezDrehs,Dress,Dufelm

eyer,Dufelmeier,Fuelling/Fulling,Frese,Hunken,K/Clintwood,Hirschy,Jalonski,Kam

inski,Kozielecki,Kozielewski,Kurgan,Leimkuehler,Leimenkuhler,Mazgaj,Mesch,Obyc

,Ostmeier/Ostmeyer,Obrock,Piechalski,Poertner,Pranten,Quell,Rak,Reker,Redecker

,Speckmann,Thiessecharpen/Thieschaper,Thunhorst,Viel/Viets,Winteregg,Wistingha

usen,Zinzack, Zynczak,Zinczak
Jill Leimkuehler









(MagdalenaJLM(a)aol.com)


[HN] Brockhausen and Wittlage

Date: 2003/02/14 20:10:19
From: Joel Poetker <jpoetker(a)earthlink.net>

    There is only one village in Germany by the name of Wittlage, 49152 Bad Essen-Wittlage.  Years ago Wittlage was part of the Lutheran parish of Barkhausen-Wittlage.  Each village had its own parish church, an unusual arrange but for those times the distant between the two villages was too great for one church.  Later this geographically large parish was divided.  So today the village of Wittlage has the parish church for Parish Wittlage.  

    There are 4 Brockhausens in Germany.  The one you want is 49152 Bads Essen-Brockhausen and this Brockhausen receives its mail from Post Wittlage.  

    The other Brockhausens are:

    49811 Lingen-Brockhausen
    58708 Menden-Brockhausen
    59510 Lippetal-Brockhausen
    58089 Hagen-Brochhausen (Now part of the city of Hagen)

    I would be very surprised if your ancestors where from these Brockhausens rather than at 49152 Bad Essen-Brockhausen.  

    The driving distances between the centers of Bad Essen to Wittlage is no than 3 miles and from Wittlage to Brockhausen is no more than 2 miles.  

                                                                                Cheers,   Poetker




Re: [HN] village Twisselhop, Twiselhop- If I had only asked.

Date: 2003/02/14 20:39:18
From: Hans Peter Albers <320097756779-0001(a)t-online.de>

dear gutt morgan,
please give me some more details about your Luhmann, Reinecke or Brammer.These 
names are well known, in the region of Lüneburg. As there are roundabout 14 
places named "Bergen" it needs some more specification, to find the write one. 
The following similar sounding places could be found in one of the better Roadmap 
ones: "21723 Twielenfleth", "Twisteden", "Twistingen", "Twixlum", "Twieftingen", 
"Twistenbostel". Maybe it is one of these.

Hans Peter Albers                         E-Mail 320097756779-0001(a)t-online.de




[HN] Polle + Brevörde

Date: 2003/02/14 22:23:07
From: Reinhard . Freytag <Reinhard.Freytag(a)t-online.de>

Kann diese Nachricht bitte wiederholt oder direkt an mich geschickt
werden?
Leider habe ich die Nachricht versehentlich gelöscht!

Reinhard.Freytag(a)t-online.de


Re: [HN] village Twisselhop, Twiselhop- If I had only asked.

Date: 2003/02/15 02:24:39
From: Edward Meyer <meyereh(a)sprintmail.com>

Give me a clue as to which Meyers you have researched.  There are, as we all
know, so many people who have the surname of Meyer, myself inclued.  EMeyer

----------
>From: "gutt morgan" <guttmorgan(a)hotmail.com>
>To: hannover-l(a)genealogy.net
>Subject: [HN] village  Twisselhop, Twiselhop- If I had only asked.
>Date: Fri, Feb 14, 2003, 11:48 AM
>

>
> I am a new member. I have a history of  german Meyer,Behrens, Schultze,
> Schulz, Luhmann,Reinecke, Riess, Ries, Seil, Schmidt, Brookmann, Korn,
> Heins,, Koch, Winkelmann, Brase, Stratmann, Hencke, Brammer, Kothe,Meierhof,
> Hohls,Solter,Habermann,Arends,Kohrs,Schenck,  Heinz, Koenig, Stille,
> Schmobel,and Fehring, Gunther, Nahnsen. I am sure I forgot a few.
> also looking for my  fathers godparents. Gronewald and  Louise Pragne
> family of Wells, mn.
> I posted the above  village name because it was told to me many years ago.
> It was listed in the Bergen Church Records. Also, If i  find that person who
> mentioned it , I would find many answers that he knew back then. If I had
> only asked.
> More postings with questions later.
> Jo Meyer
>
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE*
> http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Hannover-L mailing list
> Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l


[HN] Twistel Estate - Meier, Meyer

Date: 2003/02/15 05:44:49
From: Steven C. Wehling <wehling(a)rushmore.com>

Hi Joe
Well WOW!! I thought I would never be able to share this!!! the Title of Von
Mönzbruch was added to Hugo Meier and I have to check my notes that tell the
rest of the story, but I am certian this is the Twistel you are looking for.
I share some of the names you have listed but I am not related to this
family, other than they were listed as Godparents to my Depenbrock family
from Osnabrück and Rieste, in the general area of the Twistel Estate. The
information I listed was provided by Jens Müller Koppe a researcher that
specializes in this area of Germany, so enjoy and let me know if it helps
you.

Steven C. Wehling



                    Descendants of Hugo MEIER VON MÖNZBRUCH


           1-Hugo Meier Von Mönzbruch-[25551] was born in 1585 and died in
             1625, at age 40.

             General Notes: l

           Noted events in his life were:

           *  He was employed in St. Sylvester Quakenbrück. Lutheran Priest

             Hugo married (name unknown).   They had one child: Conrad.

             11-Conrad Meier Von Mönzbruch-[25550] died in Twistel Estate,
Near
               The Village Of Heeke.

               General Notes: Conrad Meier Von Mönzbruch bought the Twistel
               Estate in 1649  from Johann Von Quernheim the father of his
first
               wife.

               Conrad married Anna Clara Von Quernheim-[25552] [MRIN:8812],
               daughter of Johann Von Quernheim-[25553] and Unknown.   They
had
               one child: Gustav Adolf.

               111-Gustav Adolf Von Mönzbruch-[25554] was born on 10 Feb
1696
                 in Twistel Estate, Near The Village Of Heeke.

                 Gustav married Maria Odilia Wulfen-[25555] [MRIN:8814].
They
                 had one child: Johann Friedrich Hilmar.

                 1111-Johann Friedrich Hilmar Von Mönzbruch-[25556] was born
in
                   Twistel Estate, Near The Village Of Heeke.

                   Johann married Judith Catharina Von Der Horst-[25558]
                   [MRIN:8816].  Judith was born in Vinkenburg and died
about
                   1730. They had one child: Carl Ludwig.

                   11111-Carl Ludwig Von Mönzbruch-[25560] was born in
Twistel
                     Estate, Near The Village Of Heeke and died in 1803.

                     General Notes: Carl Ludwig sold the Twistel Estate in
1790

                   Johann married Wilhelmine Charlotte Von Steuben-[25559]
                   [MRIN:8817].

               Conrad married Johanna Elisabeth Von Brawe Widow Von
Frese-[25557]
               [MRIN:8815].
> >
>
> >
> > I am a new member. I have a history of  german Meyer,Behrens, Schultze,
> > Schulz, Luhmann,Reinecke, Riess, Ries, Seil, Schmidt, Brookmann, Korn,
> > Heins,, Koch, Winkelmann, Brase, Stratmann, Hencke, Brammer,
Kothe,Meierhof,
> > Hohls,Solter,Habermann,Arends,Kohrs,Schenck,  Heinz, Koenig, Stille,
> > Schmobel,and Fehring, Gunther, Nahnsen. I am sure I forgot a few.
> > also looking for my  fathers godparents. Gronewald and  Louise Pragne
> > family of Wells, mn.
> > I posted the above  village name because it was told to me many years
ago.
> > It was listed in the Bergen Church Records. Also, If i  find that person
who
> > mentioned it , I would find many answers that he knew back then. If I
had
> > only asked.
> > More postings with questions later.
> > Jo Meyer
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE*
> > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Hannover-L mailing list
> > Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> > http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l
>
> _______________________________________________
> Hannover-L mailing list
> Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l
>



[HN] Maps, passenger lists, articles on German emigrants to America

Date: 2003/02/15 07:57:01
From: John Siemon <jsiemon(a)bcpl.net>

http://www.uni-oldenburg.de/nausa/fundfe.htm

The Alsace-Lorraine list included information on this web site, DAUSA
(Research Center German Emigrants in the USA) with nice maps of old German
states.  One shows routes of passenger ships and shows counts (written in
German) of emmigrants to various cities in the US.  I've only started
looking at this, but anyone interested in German immigration should check
out this site.

It also has a link to the FEEFHS Map Room from the Federation of Eastern
European Family History Societies, an invaluable source of maps I had
forgotten about.

There is also a link titled "Passenger Lists" that takes you to articles on
"Germans to America," including one that discusses "Missing Baltimore
Arrivals in Germans To America."  Also articles on Germans in the Civil War.

Most, but not all of this, is in German, which may be a problem for some;
but if you can translate, there is a lot of interesting information.  The
articles on "Germans to America" are in English.

John

----- Original Message -----
From: <RBurns9751(a)aol.com>
To: <ALSACE-LORRAINE-L(a)rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, February 14, 2003 12:10 PM
Subject: [ALS-LOR] Web site for old maps


> I found an interesting site that shows old (1800's) maps of Europe.  The
URL
> is http://www.uni-oldenburg.de/nausa/nausae.htm.   From the opening page,
> click "Findings" at the bottom and then Maps from the menu at the left.
> There are a few map thumbnail sketches on this page.  You can get a larger
> view of the map by clicking on it.  The larger map can also be clicked to
> zoom in on an area.  You can also click a link on the main map page
"FEEFHS
> Maps Room" that brings up a list of more maps, including Alsace-Lorraine.
I
> beleive most of these maps are from an 1882 atlas.
>
> Hope some of you find this useful.
>
> Bob Burns
>
>
> ==== ALSACE-LORRAINE Mailing List ====
> To Unsubscribe: Click on mailto:Alsace-Lorraine-L-request(a)rootsweb.com
> to send a new message, with UNSUBSCRIBE as the subject and again as
> the *only* text in the message. Contact Listowner Valorie Zimmerman,
> mailto:alsace-lorraine-admin(a)rootsweb.com with list problems.
>
> ==============================
> To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records,
go to:
> http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237
>
>



Re: [HN] Polle + Brevörde

Date: 2003/02/15 08:15:03
From: Heinz Bredthauer <Heinz.Bredthauer(a)t-online.de>

Reinhard.Freytag(a)t-online.de schrieb:
> 
> Kann diese Nachricht bitte wiederholt oder direkt an mich geschickt
> werden?

Hallo Reinhard,

hierfür gibt es doch das Archiv der Liste. Am besten kommst
Du dorthin, indem Du dem Link folgst, der unter jeder Listen-
nachriccht angegeben ist.
<http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l>

Hoffe geholfen zu haben

Heinz
-- 
Heimatzeitschriften: <http://schlesien.genealogy.net/schriften>
FAQ - Ortssuche: <http://www.genealogy.net/faqs/ortssuche.html>


[HN] Re: Hannover-L digest, Vol 1 #855 - 10 msgs

Date: 2003/02/15 16:58:33
From: Waynmargphillips <Waynmargphillips(a)cs.com>

My grandmother's family name is GERMAN. Her lineage has been traced to 
baptism records from the Christ Lutheran Church, of Berks County, PA of
the 1740s. The GERMAN family are descendants of Pennsylvania Germans
who came from Germany. I am attempting to sort out the origin of the GERMAN
name. The word "German" has no meaning in German/English dictionaries. The
German word for German is "Deutsch." I would like to learn where the German
word for the people of Germany came from. I would also like to learn where in 
Deutschland people with the name GERMAN came from. Any ideas or recommended
sources of information would be welcome. Thank you.
Wayne E. Phillips
Chester, VA.,


Re: [HN] Re: Hannover-L digest, Vol 1 #855 - 10 msgs

Date: 2003/02/15 17:20:52
From: Barbara Stewart <raymondg(a)attbi.com>

Hello,

     If you go to the LDS website (www.familysearch.org), click on Search
for Ancestors and just put the name German in the Last Name box, choose
Germany for the country, don't enter anything else, click on search and you
will see where many of the German (or Gehrmann) people lived. Perhaps, if
you're lucky, you will find your own ancestors  there.

Barbara


on 2/15/03 8:58 AM, Waynmargphillips(a)cs.com at Waynmargphillips(a)cs.com
wrote:

> My grandmother's family name is GERMAN. Her lineage has been traced to
> baptism records from the Christ Lutheran Church, of Berks County, PA of
> the 1740s. The GERMAN family are descendants of Pennsylvania Germans
> who came from Germany. I am attempting to sort out the origin of the GERMAN
> name. The word "German" has no meaning in German/English dictionaries. The
> German word for German is "Deutsch." I would like to learn where the German
> word for the people of Germany came from. I would also like to learn where in
> Deutschland people with the name GERMAN came from. Any ideas or recommended
> sources of information would be welcome. Thank you.
> Wayne E. Phillips
> Chester, VA.,
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Hannover-L mailing list
> Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l



Re: [HN] Re: Hannover-L digest, Vol 1 #855 - 10 msgs

Date: 2003/02/15 17:31:08
From: Fred Rump <fredrump(a)earthlink.net>

On 15 Feb 2003 at 10:58, Waynmargphillips(a)cs.com wrote:

> My grandmother's family name is GERMAN. Her lineage has been traced to
> baptism records from the Christ Lutheran Church, of Berks County, PA
> of the 1740s. The GERMAN family are descendants of Pennsylvania
> Germans who came from Germany. I am attempting to sort out the origin
> of the GERMAN name. The word "German" has no meaning in German/English
> dictionaries. The German word for German is "Deutsch." I would like to
> learn where the German word for the people of Germany came from. I
> would also like to learn where in Deutschland people with the name
> GERMAN came from. Any ideas or recommended sources of information
> would be welcome. Thank you. Wayne E. Phillips Chester, VA.,

I don't know if anyone here can be helpful with this name. The German 
pronounciation is simply german with a hard G like garden. The name 
ocurs all over the place and the telephone book lists 17 Alexander 
German to give you an idea. Many of the 677 occurrances in the phone 
book are the English version of the name in companies etc. but that 
still leaves lots of regular german folks around. Take a look 
yourself at http://www.telefonbuch.de/NSAPI/Anfrage and click on 
English.

German history goes back to the Roman version of the peoples who 
lived there and which thereby slipped into the English language from 
Germania and German. By itself it is not a German word but Germans 
talk about the old GERMANEN just like anybody else. 

Fred

 4788 Corian Court
Naples, FL 34114
239-775-7838; 239-269-4781 (cell) 
FredRump(a)earthlink.net





[HN] (no subject)

Date: 2003/02/15 19:10:46
From: gutt morgan <guttmorgan(a)hotmail.com>


I lived in a family that came from Greene county Iowa to MInnesota. Nearly the 'Little House on the Praire' region in Mn- a ways from Mankato. Hermann Meyer and Anna Seil married and lived in a line of farming Germans with some kind of connection. Especialy the Heinrich- Mosel next to us. My family talked so little about ancestors and the relatives in Greene county, Iowa. They did mention a connection with the neighbors especially Mosels. I began searching for the links between the Gerdes/Kelsey, Sander, Monson, Lewis,Shaw, Smith, Siebert,Sill, Kaiser,Wolles, and Mosels. I had to look into my own family. I found out that my grandmother Seil was illigitimate and that her grandfather August Wilhelm Friedrich SEIL and his second wife VOGEL/ UMLAUF [ Bohemia] lived on the farm that I had lived all my young years.They all lived together. In fact Anna Seil had a legal paper drawn up that after she died her grandfther and his wife would be taken care of as long as they lived. It was an insurance paper that named names of a four year old beneficiary that really got me rolling. Her father was listed as August. A year that did not go with her grandfathers years. Her grandfather had raised her. My parents never said a word about 'Before'. Once father said 'Seil grew grapes'. He was known for his knowledge of grapes. 'Grandfathers godfather [HEINS] was a beekeeper'. The heins may have had to resort to this as did many in the area they were from. Now i would remember bits and peices that help. I suspect that if it was mentioned questions would be asked that they did not want to answer. Perhaps it was that the great grandmother KORN[ SCHMIDT, BROOKMAN FROM GROß Thondorf] had killed herself. Maybe the divorce of August Wilhelm Friedrich Seil and her mother Korn. all adds up.[ I am looking for the step sisters possibly named MULE also]. I am looking for the impossible: The father of Anna Wilhelmina Seil. The child supposedly conceived in germany. born jan. 1893 in america.

Heinrich Christoph MEYER - Radenbeck. I know nothing about this nor did my requests for information come back. Records from Dahlenburg church from Eichdorf and Neetzendorf produced this information. son Johann Juergen Meyerb. aug. 15. 1772 from Radenbeck. He married Maria Elisabeth BEHRENS [MOTHER- SCHULTZE] of Neetzendorf.Her father was a 'Hauswirth'. They also lived in Eichdorf. They were shepherds and their children usually married other shepherds children. Johann had three sons that lived past infancy. Two I know nothing about and naturally I search for those family Meyers. Johann Juergen b.05.12.1806. Hinrich Juergen b.03.10.1817. sometimes the church records there said Neetzendorf =Boitze It was in my search that I wrote letters to some in this german area. I received some replies.I have found three families in this region and Nahrendorf/ Oldendorf with Meyer, but have no names to find any poof of any relationship. One has a mother who resides in the area my Mosel came from. Boitzenburg across the Elbe river north of Bleckede. One gave me more information from the local church which helped me move further. He was not related.[angel in disguise] So some of my information is not a sure thing. I did request information from Dahlenburg church records and some from Nahrendorf. But I need more done there.

Johann Juergen son Juergen Friedrich Meyer b. 29.11.1814 Neetzendorf is in my branch. He married Catharina Margaretha LUHMANN from same area. [ If you go to dahlenburg picture on-line you can see the Luhmann farm off left - Just out of town. SO I have found this family that had moved to Quickborn. HE DOESN'T KNOW ANYTHING. ONLY MOSTLY WHAT I TOLD HIM. many fires in 1945 and in Dahlenburg many earlier.] He was shepherd till 1845. Then he aquiered a new occupation as game warden at Röthen.??? The family said he worked for Kaiser Wilhelm 1.

He also owned land in Oldendorf. He had a few more children there. His wife is said to have died in 1855. [Why wouldn't the church be able to report that to me.]

This is important to me, cause it could mean that he remarried.Unless children were had out of church district or not recorded? It is importan because in the family Meyer book it states that Juergen Friedrich Meyer had two other sons. One stayed in germany and the other went to Oregon. Nothing is known or recorded about them other than what is in OUR Meyer book. A book writen about 1970 and sold to relatives. Informtion circulated in a 'round robin'. My family did not purchase one.

The two sons I know about were Juergen Heinrich Wilhelm Meyer b.07.10.1843 at Eichdorf [my branch ] and Juergen Heinrich Friedrich Meyer b. 912.1851 Nahrendorf[ also went as Friederich.] I have no proof other than census that Friedrich Meyer of Bleckede came to us. around 1868 [ more about that another time] He married in Maqouata[ clinton county in 1892 to Marie Dorothea SCHENCK OR SCHENK of Bleckede. Her Mother RICKENS.

Juergen Heinrich Wilhelm Meyer had been a prisoner of war at Metz and came out of the military about 1870. He was working as a laborer at HORN at the time of his marriage in 20.07.1873. He married Maria Dorothea Heins. Imker AND A renters daughter in Oldendorf/ Nahrendorf.[ more about them in a bit in next letter.]HER FATHER WAS JOHANNN HEIRICH HEINS. Her mother was a Anna Maria HENKE or Hencke. From Munster= Fassberg. örtze. [No church record tht I have mentions Hencke or Henke again. Nor does the other radenbeck meyers get mentioned. It seems new area = new sponsers.] Maria Dorothea Heins was born 03.06.1851 in Kreutzen =Trauen bei Munster, Oertze. church records at iowa mentioned her as being from Kretzen Rezbeg, Luneburg[ I could never find this area. I think the luneburg through me off.

Then I got the Records for the Bergen,Celle luthern church . Found that the family extended all the way up to Munster area. I think there are two. One with umlaut and one with out. I may have mistakenly put the umlaut in at first in recording info. Her Heins or Heinz as is in Meyer book were suppose to have come over and she was suppose to have had a brother Heinrich. There were copies of the two Heinz pictures in the books of all Heins and Wilhelm Meyer. The women had no other identily than that of Heinz. I was told they came all together ...again. But then this person told me my family was from Austria.!!

Juergen Heinrich Friedrich Meyer was living in Churdan, Iowa area by 1883. His brother Wilhelm came 04.08.1884 on FRISIA. They had a document which my grandfather had that had the seal of Nahrendorf cross on it. [ he had been last male to survive of that generation.]They settled in Lohrville, Iowa and after four years moved to Churdan and Farnhamville.

I have a newspaper article that says that Fred Schroeder visted Friederich Meyer after July 1883 and stayed the winter and ever after. He had stopped in, I think, Jolliet Illn. first.The place where August Wilhelm Friedrich Seil [final Naturalized there] first went and Henry Dohrman and wife Dorothea Seil went first.[Big Vogel family of Greene county]

Fred Schroeder was a recorded by the Church to have worked at Roethen. I think he was a carpenter. At 'Schutzenfests' his wife Mary [Saucke/ Naefke] was recorded by this news article to have said she worked putting meals on the table for the royalty that often attended. This is the Göhrde area.

I was told THEY CAME to usa WITH A COLONY OF EIGHT. SEIL, LUHMANN, DORHMANN, MOSEL, KANNING,SAUCKE,SCHROEDER,ZEITZ, LUSMANN. They all settled in the area and established a church together in Greene county Iowa. I have an interest in all these families for those reasons. Most of them, if they weren't already related, became so by marriage in this community.

Kanning married Schroeder and a Nahnsen lines . Meyers married Nahnsens lines and Carstensen lines. Zeitz married Schroeder lines. Mosel married Lussman and Naefke. Lussman married [Maybe in germany Meyer]Nahnsen, Schroeder, Mosel lines. In germany Luhmann married Meyer , Another Meyer and Seil. Maybe same Seil or another line of Seil. Saucke is probably in there again too, but I stop here. BARTELS and PETERSEN, GROTE of Niendorf, kries Bleckede were in there. Mosel had a relationshep with Saucke and possible Naefke and Lusmann in germany. And I have found the name in the phone book there. { I research all this as much as possible. Luckily they all went to the same church at St. Peters]. I am told these Seils / Schroeder/ Dohrmann [I haven't found the origin of Dohrmann except Hamburg] of Iowa are all related and extend into illn. but are not related to my Seil. They have the Coon line. These Seils of iowa came from the same area by Bleckede. These have gone to Nebraska.and Oklahoma. One was lost in new york and married a RIDD????? in Oklahoma. I couldn't read the written name rittenburg or something. She was sister to Heinrich Seil [wife could be Ahrens]. so I investigate these Seils also for the proof they are related to my family or lived near by.

Wilhelm was a 'Christian Scientist'. I am not sure if it was before in germany also ? or just in iowa.?? I have noticed some other greene county members to be so too. SOME WERE KICKED OUT OF THE CHURCH FOR THIS REASON. THE PERSON DID NOT SAY MY MEYER WAS KICKED OUT. I was also been told this by a descendent of a great aunt who took care of him in his last years. She also said she has the diary of Wilhelm . But she is not sharing as of yet.

i AM PROUD TO SAY that i received Our Meyer family book this last year. The last copy. I was able to fire off a few questions before and after receiving the book.

The book also contained the names of Wilhelm  Meyer and Freds sisters.
My church records have supplied the dates and full names.

Kathrine Marie Elisabeth b. 24.10.1839 Eichdorf = Nahrendorf- Dahlenburg
Kathrine Margaret[or Margaretha] Elisabeth b. 02.02.1842
Kathrine Dorothea Elisabeth b. 12.8.1845 Eichdorf=Dahlenburg
move to Oldendorf names changed.
Another Dorothy Elisabeth MEYER b. nov.15, 1849- Oldendorf=Nahrendorf and
another Marie Kathrine b. 27.10. 1847. Oldendorf=Nahrendorf
A Mary married a Fehring.
A Margaret married a Stile.
[ One of these two may have died in chicago fire]
A Doris or dorothy marrid a Koenig.
one came over and  some stayed in germany?
one married a Schmobel a ship business.I search for more on this also. spellings may be off. and I wonder about THEIR Translation of handwriting. I HAVE FOUND NOTHING HERE OR THERE MORE ABOUT THEM.

I am learning if you keep it short you often can get better results in answers to family questions. And to send a return postcard for the questions answers with address and stamp.

When i was about 25 I lived in Martin county Mn. Maybe other Meyers experience this. I am often told I am related to so and so. In mY case I would say " can't be, mine are in iowa". Not having a genological clue. then saying Farmington instead of Farnhamville. I had forgotten that my grandfathers brother lived there around 1950 and that the two of them attended the Immanuel church there. So later in my profession as a waitress, I met a man who told me all about those two bothers uncle. The Juergen Heinrich Friedrich[ Friederich] Meyer of Churdan iowa area. In remembering back some twenty years. I remember many names he told me about a connection... those of the neighboring german families. Which ones, cloudy. But I remembered him having told me about /Twisselhop or Twiselhop. I didn't rember the mentioning of Heins. The name Twissel hop and the other variation appeared in the Bergen church records of the Heins. This volunteer was a volunteer made in heaven also. Cause he does great work. He sent me cd's with all the Heins in that church district. It was like it was on Excel. I am working on proofing the works The Carstensen descendent [brother wife of my grandfather]plans to put on rootsweb along with all she has found on the Meyer-Luhmann family. dating back to 1700. My information came from her and i will always be grateful she was on the internet.
I am sorry for the length. but have to do it this way.
I have been called to work unexpectedly, so this is my final proofing and will be sent.

Heins next letter. tommorow and more on twiselhop in Bergen area






_________________________________________________________________
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[HN] Meyer of Luneburg area= Ooldendorf/ Nahrendorf area

Date: 2003/02/15 19:11:52
From: gutt morgan <guttmorgan(a)hotmail.com>


I lived in a family that came from Greene county Iowa to MInnesota. Nearly the 'Little House on the Praire' region in Mn- a ways from Mankato. Hermann Meyer and Anna Seil married and lived in a line of farming Germans with some kind of connection. Especialy the Heinrich- Mosel next to us. My family talked so little about ancestors and the relatives in Greene county, Iowa. They did mention a connection with the neighbors especially Mosels. I began searching for the links between the Gerdes/Kelsey, Sander, Monson, Lewis,Shaw, Smith, Siebert,Sill, Kaiser,Wolles, and Mosels. I had to look into my own family. I found out that my grandmother Seil was illigitimate and that her grandfather August Wilhelm Friedrich SEIL and his second wife VOGEL/ UMLAUF [ Bohemia] lived on the farm that I had lived all my young years.They all lived together. In fact Anna Seil had a legal paper drawn up that after she died her grandfther and his wife would be taken care of as long as they lived. It was an insurance paper that named names of a four year old beneficiary that really got me rolling. Her father was listed as August. A year that did not go with her grandfathers years. Her grandfather had raised her. My parents never said a word about 'Before'. Once father said 'Seil grew grapes'. He was known for his knowledge of grapes. 'Grandfathers godfather [HEINS] was a beekeeper'. The heins may have had to resort to this as did many in the area they were from. Now i would remember bits and peices that help. I suspect that if it was mentioned questions would be asked that they did not want to answer. Perhaps it was that the great grandmother KORN[ SCHMIDT, BROOKMAN FROM GROß Thondorf] had killed herself. Maybe the divorce of August Wilhelm Friedrich Seil and her mother Korn. all adds up.[ I am looking for the step sisters possibly named MULE also]. I am looking for the impossible: The father of Anna Wilhelmina Seil. The child supposedly conceived in germany. born jan. 1893 in america.

Heinrich Christoph MEYER - Radenbeck. I know nothing about this nor did my requests for information come back. Records from Dahlenburg church from Eichdorf and Neetzendorf produced this information. son Johann Juergen Meyerb. aug. 15. 1772 from Radenbeck. He married Maria Elisabeth BEHRENS [MOTHER- SCHULTZE] of Neetzendorf.Her father was a 'Hauswirth'. They also lived in Eichdorf. They were shepherds and their children usually married other shepherds children. Johann had three sons that lived past infancy. Two I know nothing about and naturally I search for those family Meyers. Johann Juergen b.05.12.1806. Hinrich Juergen b.03.10.1817. sometimes the church records there said Neetzendorf =Boitze It was in my search that I wrote letters to some in this german area. I received some replies.I have found three families in this region and Nahrendorf/ Oldendorf with Meyer, but have no names to find any poof of any relationship. One has a mother who resides in the area my Mosel came from. Boitzenburg across the Elbe river north of Bleckede. One gave me more information from the local church which helped me move further. He was not related.[angel in disguise] So some of my information is not a sure thing. I did request information from Dahlenburg church records and some from Nahrendorf. But I need more done there.

Johann Juergen son Juergen Friedrich Meyer b. 29.11.1814 Neetzendorf is in my branch. He married Catharina Margaretha LUHMANN from same area. [ If you go to dahlenburg picture on-line you can see the Luhmann farm off left - Just out of town. SO I have found this family that had moved to Quickborn. HE DOESN'T KNOW ANYTHING. ONLY MOSTLY WHAT I TOLD HIM. many fires in 1945 and in Dahlenburg many earlier.] He was shepherd till 1845. Then he aquiered a new occupation as game warden at Röthen.??? The family said he worked for Kaiser Wilhelm 1.

He also owned land in Oldendorf. He had a few more children there. His wife is said to have died in 1855. [Why wouldn't the church be able to report that to me.]

This is important to me, cause it could mean that he remarried.Unless children were had out of church district or not recorded? It is importan because in the family Meyer book it states that Juergen Friedrich Meyer had two other sons. One stayed in germany and the other went to Oregon. Nothing is known or recorded about them other than what is in OUR Meyer book. A book writen about 1970 and sold to relatives. Informtion circulated in a 'round robin'. My family did not purchase one.

The two sons I know about were Juergen Heinrich Wilhelm Meyer b.07.10.1843 at Eichdorf [my branch ] and Juergen Heinrich Friedrich Meyer b. 912.1851 Nahrendorf[ also went as Friederich.] I have no proof other than census that Friedrich Meyer of Bleckede came to us. around 1868 [ more about that another time] He married in Maqouata[ clinton county in 1892 to Marie Dorothea SCHENCK OR SCHENK of Bleckede. Her Mother RICKENS.

Juergen Heinrich Wilhelm Meyer had been a prisoner of war at Metz and came out of the military about 1870. He was working as a laborer at HORN at the time of his marriage in 20.07.1873. He married Maria Dorothea Heins. Imker AND A renters daughter in Oldendorf/ Nahrendorf.[ more about them in a bit in next letter.]HER FATHER WAS JOHANNN HEIRICH HEINS. Her mother was a Anna Maria HENKE or Hencke. From Munster= Fassberg. örtze. [No church record tht I have mentions Hencke or Henke again. Nor does the other radenbeck meyers get mentioned. It seems new area = new sponsers.] Maria Dorothea Heins was born 03.06.1851 in Kreutzen =Trauen bei Munster, Oertze. church records at iowa mentioned her as being from Kretzen Rezbeg, Luneburg[ I could never find this area. I think the luneburg through me off.

Then I got the Records for the Bergen,Celle luthern church . Found that the family extended all the way up to Munster area. I think there are two. One with umlaut and one with out. I may have mistakenly put the umlaut in at first in recording info. Her Heins or Heinz as is in Meyer book were suppose to have come over and she was suppose to have had a brother Heinrich. There were copies of the two Heinz pictures in the books of all Heins and Wilhelm Meyer. The women had no other identily than that of Heinz. I was told they came all together ...again. But then this person told me my family was from Austria.!!

Juergen Heinrich Friedrich Meyer was living in Churdan, Iowa area by 1883. His brother Wilhelm came 04.08.1884 on FRISIA. They had a document which my grandfather had that had the seal of Nahrendorf cross on it. [ he had been last male to survive of that generation.]They settled in Lohrville, Iowa and after four years moved to Churdan and Farnhamville.

I have a newspaper article that says that Fred Schroeder visted Friederich Meyer after July 1883 and stayed the winter and ever after. He had stopped in, I think, Jolliet Illn. first.The place where August Wilhelm Friedrich Seil [final Naturalized there] first went and Henry Dohrman and wife Dorothea Seil went first.[Big Vogel family of Greene county]

Fred Schroeder was a recorded by the Church to have worked at Roethen. I think he was a carpenter. At 'Schutzenfests' his wife Mary [Saucke/ Naefke] was recorded by this news article to have said she worked putting meals on the table for the royalty that often attended. This is the Göhrde area.

I was told THEY CAME to usa WITH A COLONY OF EIGHT. SEIL, LUHMANN, DORHMANN, MOSEL, KANNING,SAUCKE,SCHROEDER,ZEITZ, LUSMANN. They all settled in the area and established a church together in Greene county Iowa. I have an interest in all these families for those reasons. Most of them, if they weren't already related, became so by marriage in this community.

Kanning married Schroeder and a Nahnsen lines . Meyers married Nahnsens lines and Carstensen lines. Zeitz married Schroeder lines. Mosel married Lussman and Naefke. Lussman married [Maybe in germany Meyer]Nahnsen, Schroeder, Mosel lines. In germany Luhmann married Meyer , Another Meyer and Seil. Maybe same Seil or another line of Seil. Saucke is probably in there again too, but I stop here. BARTELS and PETERSEN, GROTE of Niendorf, kries Bleckede were in there. Mosel had a relationshep with Saucke and possible Naefke and Lusmann in germany. And I have found the name in the phone book there. { I research all this as much as possible. Luckily they all went to the same church at St. Peters]. I am told these Seils / Schroeder/ Dohrmann [I haven't found the origin of Dohrmann except Hamburg] of Iowa are all related and extend into illn. but are not related to my Seil. They have the Coon line. These Seils of iowa came from the same area by Bleckede. These have gone to Nebraska.and Oklahoma. One was lost in new york and married a RIDD????? in Oklahoma. I couldn't read the written name rittenburg or something. She was sister to Heinrich Seil [wife could be Ahrens]. so I investigate these Seils also for the proof they are related to my family or lived near by.

Wilhelm was a 'Christian Scientist'. I am not sure if it was before in germany also ? or just in iowa.?? I have noticed some other greene county members to be so too. SOME WERE KICKED OUT OF THE CHURCH FOR THIS REASON. THE PERSON DID NOT SAY MY MEYER WAS KICKED OUT. I was also been told this by a descendent of a great aunt who took care of him in his last years. She also said she has the diary of Wilhelm . But she is not sharing as of yet.

i AM PROUD TO SAY that i received Our Meyer family book this last year. The last copy. I was able to fire off a few questions before and after receiving the book.

The book also contained the names of Wilhelm  Meyer and Freds sisters.
My church records have supplied the dates and full names.

Kathrine Marie Elisabeth b. 24.10.1839 Eichdorf = Nahrendorf- Dahlenburg
Kathrine Margaret[or Margaretha] Elisabeth b. 02.02.1842
Kathrine Dorothea Elisabeth b. 12.8.1845 Eichdorf=Dahlenburg
move to Oldendorf names changed.
Another Dorothy Elisabeth MEYER b. nov.15, 1849- Oldendorf=Nahrendorf and
another Marie Kathrine b. 27.10. 1847. Oldendorf=Nahrendorf
A Mary married a Fehring.
A Margaret married a Stile.
[ One of these two may have died in chicago fire]
A Doris or dorothy marrid a Koenig.
one came over and  some stayed in germany?
one married a Schmobel a ship business.I search for more on this also. spellings may be off. and I wonder about THEIR Translation of handwriting. I HAVE FOUND NOTHING HERE OR THERE MORE ABOUT THEM.

I am learning if you keep it short you often can get better results in answers to family questions. And to send a return postcard for the questions answers with address and stamp.

When i was about 25 I lived in Martin county Mn. Maybe other Meyers experience this. I am often told I am related to so and so. In mY case I would say " can't be, mine are in iowa". Not having a genological clue. then saying Farmington instead of Farnhamville. I had forgotten that my grandfathers brother lived there around 1950 and that the two of them attended the Immanuel church there. So later in my profession as a waitress, I met a man who told me all about those two bothers uncle. The Juergen Heinrich Friedrich[ Friederich] Meyer of Churdan iowa area. In remembering back some twenty years. I remember many names he told me about a connection... those of the neighboring german families. Which ones, cloudy. But I remembered him having told me about /Twisselhop or Twiselhop. I didn't rember the mentioning of Heins. The name Twissel hop and the other variation appeared in the Bergen church records of the Heins. This volunteer was a volunteer made in heaven also. Cause he does great work. He sent me cd's with all the Heins in that church district. It was like it was on Excel. I am working on proofing the works The Carstensen descendent [brother wife of my grandfather]plans to put on rootsweb along with all she has found on the Meyer-Luhmann family. dating back to 1700. My information came from her and i will always be grateful she was on the internet.
I am sorry for the length. but have to do it this way.
I have been called to work unexpectedly, so this is my final proofing and will be sent.

Heins next letter. tommorow and more on twiselhop in Bergen area






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fwd 'behindthename' was: [HN] Re: Hannover-L digest, Vol 1 #855 - 10 msgs

Date: 2003/02/15 19:21:18
From: Uwe ErichsSohn <Uwe.Schaerff(a)t-online.de>

Hallo Listenteilnehmer von [FamNord],
ein Tipp von mir:
im "Stader Tageblatt" war Freitag eine Seite, in der diese Adresse stand:
http://behindthename.com
dort könnt Ihr in Erfahrung bringen, welche Bedeutung der Familienname hat, 
sofern er aufgelistet ist. Probiert es einfach.
Schönes Wochenende wünscht Euch Renate

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Waynmargphillips(a)cs.com schrieb am 15.02.03:
> My grandmother's family name is GERMAN. Her lineage has been traced to 
> baptism records from the Christ Lutheran Church, of Berks County, PA of
> the 1740s. The GERMAN family are descendants of Pennsylvania Germans
> who came from Germany. I am attempting to sort out the origin of the GERMAN
> name. The word "German" has no meaning in German/English dictionaries. The
> German word for German is "Deutsch." I would like to learn where the German
> word for the people of Germany came from. I would also like to learn where in 
> Deutschland people with the name GERMAN came from. Any ideas or recommended
> sources of information would be welcome. Thank you.
> Wayne E. Phillips
> Chester, VA.,
>
> _______________________________________________
> Hannover-L mailing list
> Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l

===========================================================================
Uwe Schärff     Falenbek 8     DE-22149 Hamburg-Rahlstedt
'fax (0049) 040 - 669 09 950   ePost: uwe.schaerff(a)t-online.de   
===========================================================================



Re: [HN] village Twisselhop, Twiselhop- Henke surname

Date: 2003/02/15 21:00:29
From: gutt morgan <guttmorgan(a)hotmail.com>

Magdalena,
Your Veits, looks familiar. But I don't remember where. As for the Beer surname makes me wonder, are you in Wi?. The brewing area is a great place to visit. Our hockey team took some Russian hockey people there once. They enjoyed it. I better go I am getting thirsty.
Jo Meyer





From: MagdalenaJLM(a)aol.com
Reply-To: hannover-l(a)genealogy.net
To: hannover-l(a)genealogy.net
Subject: Re: [HN] village  Twisselhop, Twiselhop- Henke surname
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 13:06:33 EST


My great, great, great, great grandmother was Florentina Hunke/Hunken/Hencke
born about 1770 in Schlangen, Lippe, Germany, and died 2-10-1831 in
Haustenbeck, Lippe, Germany.  Florentina married Johann Heinrich Adolf
Leimenkuehler, born 9-17-1767, in Haustenbeck, # 29 resident.  Johann and
Florentina were married 10-18-1789 in Haustenbeck.  Johann's father was
Johann (Anton) ( Toens) Leimenkuehler.  Florentina's father was Joh? Con
Hueke/Hunken.
Have a Nice Day!  Jill
I am currently researching the following names:
Barlag,Bochenski,Bogdanski,Brinkmann,Ciesielski,CieszkiewiezDrehs,Dress,Dufelm

eyer,Dufelmeier,Fuelling/Fulling,Frese,Hunken,K/Clintwood,Hirschy,Jalonski,Kam

inski,Kozielecki,Kozielewski,Kurgan,Leimkuehler,Leimenkuhler,Mazgaj,Mesch,Obyc

,Ostmeier/Ostmeyer,Obrock,Piechalski,Poertner,Pranten,Quell,Rak,Reker,Redecker

,Speckmann,Thiessecharpen/Thieschaper,Thunhorst,Viel/Viets,Winteregg,Wistingha

usen,Zinzack, Zynczak,Zinczak
Jill Leimkuehler









(MagdalenaJLM(a)aol.com)

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[HN] Meyer, Radenbeck

Date: 2003/02/15 21:12:29
From: Hans Peter Albers <320097756779-0001(a)t-online.de>

Dear Gutt Morgen,

please give me next time your postal address. You wrote a lot, what will take a 
bit of time to answer all. Well than, there are two "Radenbeck" in Germany:
1)Radenbeck bei Dahlenburg = 21401 Thomasburg, Kreis Lüneburg (nowadays postal 
address)
2)Radenbeck bei Wittingen, Nieders. = 29378 Wittingen (nowadays postal address)

As there ar more connections into the region Lüneburg, I´m almost sure your 
Radenbeck is that one you reach by 21401 Thomasburg, OT Radenbeck

In an elderly peace of family researching work: Borstelmann, Heinrich: Familien- 
kunde des alten Amtes Lüne, Lüneburg 1935,
I found in this Radenbeck the following mentioning of inhabitants, which the 
author took from tax-lists and other official documents. So you can´t expect 
dates of birth, death and marriages, but you get hints for further research.

Meyer, Meier, Meyger mentioned for 21401 Radenbeck with date of mentioning:

1450: de Meyger, H.                ( the last "H." stands for Höfner)
1776: Jürgen Meyer
1785: Jürgen Hinr.,Hh.;ehem. Jacob Sommer ("Hh." means Halbhöfner and the added 
                                   "ehem. Jacob Sommer" says, that he took over a 
                                   half, means a small one, farm from this Jacob 
                                   Sommer
1791 und 1795: Jürgen Chr., Krüger (Krüger means he had and Inn, was allowed to  
                                   sell drinks, engage musicians, etc., in short 
                                   words, he hold the place for feasts) 

As you see, up to know there is yet no name: Heinrich Christoph Meyer. That is 
not astonishing, if he was not the eldest one, or that one who overtook the place 
of his father. I think, there must be good chance, to find the date of birth of  
your Heinrich Christoph Meyer in the Church Book of Thomasburg (Evangelische 
Kirchengemeinde, 21401 Thomasburg).
Some years ago, i made myself researches in these Books, but I wouldn`t be able 
to go there before the summer, so you have to try and find someone directly under 
the address of the church or otherwise. Otherwise contact me in Juli or August03. 

Hope, I could help you further
                                              Hans Peter Albers, 
Heinrichstr. 21, 29553 Bienenbüttel, E-mail: 320097756779-0001(a)t-online.de




Re: [HN] village Twisselhop, Twiselhop- Henke surname

Date: 2003/02/15 22:15:44
From: mstulken <mstulken(a)discover-net.net>

Speaking of Wisconsin brewing, I just found this bit of trivia in a German
chronology this morning:

1872 - Brewers Philip Best, Valentin Blatz, Franz Falk,Frederick Miller,
Jacob Obermann, Frederick Pabst, Joseph Schlitz and others make
Milwaukee the leading beer exporter

Cheers!
Marilyn in
Racine, Wisconsin

gutt morgan wrote:

> Magdalena,
> Your Veits, looks familiar. But I don't remember where. As for the Beer
> surname makes me wonder, are you in Wi?. The brewing area is a great place
> to visit. Our hockey team  took some Russian hockey  people there once. They
> enjoyed it. I better go I am getting thirsty.
> Jo Meyer
>
> >From: MagdalenaJLM(a)aol.com
> >Reply-To: hannover-l(a)genealogy.net
> >To: hannover-l(a)genealogy.net
> >Subject: Re: [HN] village  Twisselhop, Twiselhop- Henke surname
> >Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 13:06:33 EST
> >
> >
> >My great, great, great, great grandmother was Florentina
> >Hunke/Hunken/Hencke
> >born about 1770 in Schlangen, Lippe, Germany, and died 2-10-1831 in
> >Haustenbeck, Lippe, Germany.  Florentina married Johann Heinrich Adolf
> >Leimenkuehler, born 9-17-1767, in Haustenbeck, # 29 resident.  Johann and
> >Florentina were married 10-18-1789 in Haustenbeck.  Johann's father was
> >Johann (Anton) ( Toens) Leimenkuehler.  Florentina's father was Joh? Con
> >Hueke/Hunken.
> >Have a Nice Day!  Jill
> >I am currently researching the following names:
> >Barlag,Bochenski,Bogdanski,Brinkmann,Ciesielski,CieszkiewiezDrehs,Dress,Dufelm
> >
> >eyer,Dufelmeier,Fuelling/Fulling,Frese,Hunken,K/Clintwood,Hirschy,Jalonski,Kam
> >
> >inski,Kozielecki,Kozielewski,Kurgan,Leimkuehler,Leimenkuhler,Mazgaj,Mesch,Obyc
> >
> >,Ostmeier/Ostmeyer,Obrock,Piechalski,Poertner,Pranten,Quell,Rak,Reker,Redecker
> >
> >,Speckmann,Thiessecharpen/Thieschaper,Thunhorst,Viel/Viets,Winteregg,Wistingha
> >
> >usen,Zinzack, Zynczak,Zinczak
> >Jill Leimkuehler
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >(MagdalenaJLM(a)aol.com)
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Hannover-L mailing list
> >Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> >http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*.
> http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail
>
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[HN] Meyer, Radenbeck, 2.Mitteilung

Date: 2003/02/15 22:29:12
From: Hans Peter Albers <320097756779-0001(a)t-online.de>

a second time, same subject Meyer von Radenbeck,

dear gutt morgen,

found a newer work, revisiting almost the same documents as the author Borstel- 
mann respecting by this the meantime progress in historical science:

Horst-Dieter Freiherr von Enzberg/Dietmar Gehrke: Aus der Vergangenheit der 
Dörfer der Samtgemeinde Ostheide. Von den Anfängen bis in das 19.Jahrhundert,
Samtgemeinde Ostheide (Hrsg.),Barendorf 2001

There I found Meyer in Radenbeck:

1723: Dieterich Meyer, : ein Köthner, nach Scharnebeck abgabenpflichtig
1756 und 1760 Meyer    : this is a comparision before and during, respectivlely 
                         after the "Siebenjähriger Krieg", which was von 1756 to 
                         1763, and says, this Meyer had before, 1 male worker(son 
                         or farm hand), 1 female farmworker, 2 horses, 6 oxes and 
                         20 acre land, afterwards it remained 1 female worker, 2 
                         horses, 6 oxes , and 20 acre land. that means there were 
                         2 workers lost. The other people lost in most cases more 
                         than this Meyer.
1825: Heinrich Dieterich Meyer, Halbhöfner, 231 Morgen Land
      Jürgen Hinrich Meyer, Halbhöfner, 184 Morgen Land
      Claus Jürgen Meyer, Anbauer, 13 Morgen Land 

That`s, wath i can tell you in the moment,

best wishes                      Hans Peter Albers





Re: [HN] village Twisselhop, Twiselhop- If I had only asked.

Date: 2003/02/15 22:43:51
From: CNordic <CNordic(a)aol.com>

Jo 
    I have a Winkelmann line in Fischerhude, Hanover.

    Richard Christensen
    


[HN] Re: Hannover-L digest, Vol 1 #855 - 10 msgs

Date: 2003/02/15 23:29:44
From: Carol M. Duff <duffc(a)redwing.net>

for Jo Meyer
The names of Meyer,Behrens, Schultze, Schulz, Luhmann, Reinecke, Riess, Ries I have found in chrich books in Hankensbüttel and Bröme also in the Gifhorn area of Hannover. I am not sure where Twisselhop lies in relationship to these communities.

Hans Peter Albers
Are you from Lüneburg?! :-) I have spent the last few years researching in the churches there. It took me 30 years to finally find the original home of my great grandparents Johann Heinrich Kiehn, born 27 March 1825 in Hankesbüttel, and his wife, Friederike Dorothee Marie Meyer, born 20 Sept 1828 in Tülau, Bröme, Gifhorn Hannover. Her parents were Johann William Meyer b. 13 May 1795 in Fahrenhorst and Catharine Dorothee Schulzen b. 27 Nov 1801 in Tülau. (I have 1 more generation in this family.) jJohann Heinrich Kiehn's parents were Jochim Diedrich Kiehn born about 1799 in Glien, Prussia and Catarina Marie Duevell born 6 November 1795 in Hankensbüttel. The Düvell family name was changed from Dügenfeldt in the 1700's. (That I don't understand......why would someone change there surname to devil?) I have never been so fortunate as to find someone who spoke English in the area.
   I do hope to return again in the autumn.
Carol Duff Carol Duff



Re: [HN] Re: Hannover-L digest, Vol 1 #855 - 10 msgs

Date: 2003/02/16 00:48:22
From: Hans Peter Albers <320097756779-0001(a)t-online.de>

Dear Carol M.Duff,

it may be only speculation. But if the change of name happenened during the 
period of Napeleon and his occupation of a great part of the North of Germany, 
which was about that time of change of 1798 to 1813 the reasonmight have been 
accomodation to the ruling French power in the country. Even in the 200 hundred 
years before in the upper classes the French sound and speach was of great 
influence and use. A lot of the aristocracy and nobility used a mixing of German 
and French as nowadays its the way with the English vocabulary in a lot of other 
languages as they are spoken in the daily case. But there may be although a lot 
of other reasons. By the way "Duevell" sounds a bit as "Düwel" and this is in the 
dialect, which was more often talked in former times, bur ist still alive and 
called: "Plattdeutsch", the same word you used in English: "devil". As the change 
was in chronological order from "Dügenfeldt" into "Düvell" it is more probably 
the fine french art, which was the reason.

At last, yes I`m living about 17 km south from Lüneburg, give me a call when you 
are in the region.

best wishes                                       Hans Peter Albers
Heinrichstr.21,29553 Bienenbüttel, E-Mail: 320097756779-0001(a)t-online.de




Re: [HN] Re: German/Germann/Gehrmann

Date: 2003/02/16 06:19:56
From: Gary E. Myer <bruggeym(a)bcpl.net>

Wayne,
I have seen that name before, and if I remember correctly, I think one of the many publications on origins of 18th-century German immigrants may list them. The name in Germany was Germann or Gehrmann. I worked on a family of Gehrmann who came to Baltimore in the 1820's through 1840's (several brothers and cousins) for a client several years ago. They were from Hannover, but I can't remember the town right now. I believe "Gehrmann" means "spear carrier", but I place little faith in a broad "meaning of a name" until you trace the individual family back in their town of origin and find out their history. Family names have a way of making many twists and turns in their history (for example the recent post for "Düvell" which evolved from "Dügenfeldt"!--which I think, by the way, might be a simple process of elision).

That's my $0.02 for you.

--Gary
Waynmargphillips(a)cs.com wrote:

My grandmother's family name is GERMAN. Her lineage has been traced to baptism records from the Christ Lutheran Church, of Berks County, PA of
the 1740s. The GERMAN family are descendants of Pennsylvania Germans
who came from Germany. I am attempting to sort out the origin of the GERMAN
name. The word "German" has no meaning in German/English dictionaries. The
German word for German is "Deutsch." I would like to learn where the German
word for the people of Germany came from. I would also like to learn where in Deutschland people with the name GERMAN came from. Any ideas or recommended
sources of information would be welcome. Thank you.
Wayne E. Phillips
Chester, VA.,

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Gary E. Myer
37 Colonial Drive
Linthicum Heights, MD 21090
(voice) 410-636-1113 (email) bruggeym(a)bcpl.net
I Cor 13:4 (from "The Message", Eugene H. Peterson's transl. of NT)





Re: [HN] Re: Hannover-L digest Hankensbüttel

Date: 2003/02/16 10:07:45
From: Vahlbruch <klaus-moni-vahlbruch(a)t-online.de>

Hallo Jo, Carol, Hans Peter and anybody else looking for
Hankensbüttel.

My father was born in Hankensbüttel on *08.04.1904 as the son of a
"Postbeamter" (a man who works at postoffice).

In that time a new postoffice-house might have been build up.
I´v got two very exelent photos, 
- one showes the postoffice in contrution (postcard)
- the other showes the postoffice allready fixed up with the big
headline:
	"KAISERLICHES POSTAMT"
On this second picture you may see my (young) Grandfater and my
grandmother looking down from the balcony.
My be that the photos are importend for local history of Hankensbüttel
too.
I may give you a scan [.jpg].

Klaus (Vahlbruch)



Re: [HN] Re: Hannover-L digest Hankensbüttel

Date: 2003/02/16 12:59:22
From: Hans Peter Albers <320097756779-0001(a)t-online.de>

Vahlbruch schrieb:
> Hallo Jo, Carol, Hans Peter and anybody else looking for
...
> My be that the photos are importend for local history of Hankensbüttel
> too.
> I may give you a scan [.jpg].
>
> Klaus (Vahlbruch)

Dear Klaus Vahlbruch,
I`m not sure, if my system will work your [.jpg] out, but when you send a copy to 
anyone else, please let me have also a copy. Working on the "Deutsche Post AG" 
has been my job and so I`m still interested in his history, especially local 
histories. Many Thanks already yet for your efforts.

Hans Peter Albers, Heinrichstr. 21, 29553 biennebüttel 
E-mail: 3200977567779-0001(a)t-online.de



[HN] Neuheitenanzeige: 21398 Neetze

Date: 2003/02/16 13:11:56
From: Hans Peter Albers <320097756779-0001(a)t-online.de>

Liebe Mitforscher,
nicht alle Forschungsergebnisse sind im Buchhandel oder über Bibliotheken 
zugänglich. Ich möchte deshalb auf folgende Arbeit hinweisen, die nach meiner 
bisherigen Erkenntnis nur in einer Auflage von 90 Stück erschienen ist:

Egon Behrens: Von der Gemeinheit zur Abbauernstelle. Ein Bericht über die 
Entstehung Neu-Neetzes, fertiggestellt im Dezember 2002, 50 S. mit zahlreichen 
Abbildungen.

Rezensiert wurde diese Arbeit in der Lüneburger Landeszeitung im Januar 2003. Für 
den Familienforscher ist diese Arbeit hilfreich, weil sie ein Höfeverzeichnis der 
neu entstandenen Hofstellen in Neu-Neetze bietet aus dem die durch weitere 
Forschung noch ergänzungsfähige Besitzerabfolge nachvollziehbar ist. Durch die 
Heranziehung der heimatgeschichtlichen Forschung des ehemaligen Lehrers Vollhardt 
der Gemeinde Neetze, Plz. heute 21398, kann über die Flurnamenforschung jede 
Bauernstelle lokalisiert werden. Zahlreiche bisher unveröffentlichte Vertrags- 
unterlagen geben einen Einblick in die geschlossenen Verträge zur Neueinrichtung 
der Abbauerstellen und gleichzeitig in die jeweiligen wirtschaftlichen 
Verhältnisse. Eine Neuauflage sollte mit einem Namensregister versehen sein. 
Kaufinteressenten (12,90 €) müssen sich an den Autor oder die Gemeindverwaltung 
von 21398 Neetze/ Kreis Lüneburg wenden.

Ich fand folgende Familiennamen: Lühr, Hagemann, Hagen, Gehrhus, Müller, 
Hoffmann, Albers, Fröhling, Bohn, Martens, Fritsch, Mehliss, Schulze, Waerner, 
Tiedemann, Denker, Schulte, Brammer, Suhrke, Riegel, Menke , Löffler, Mohrmann, 
Harms, Reer, Meyer, Witte, Gustafsen. Harders, Bull, Waerner, Tenninger, Schulze, 
Petersen, Baginski, Denker, Soetbeer, Schröder, Peters, Lütjens, Stahmann, 
Müller, Johannson, Bockelmann, Woltereck, Lievenbruck, Rüttens, Schulz, Hühne, 
Clavien, Gödecke, Höltig, Kruse, Humke, Schnell, Meyer, Bäßmann, Geyer, Wlter, 
Heye, Jensen, Horn, Mennrich, Lehmann, Leverenz, Bergmann, Sannemann, Schmidt, 
Tschentscher, Harneit, Brüggemann, Stolte, Goosch, Sevecke, Block, Schoop, Behre, 
Beusch, Jahncke, von Lösch, Sandner, rose, Schwarz, Schrader, Bischoff, Harder, 
Steinkamp, von Estorff, Lamprecht, Lohse.

Ich kann im Bedarfsfall aus meinem Exemplar Auskunft geben, muß aber darauf 
verweisen, daß zumeist nur der Familienname in der Hoffolge genannt wird. 

mit besten Grüßen             (Hans Peter Albers)




[HN] Von in a name

Date: 2003/02/16 13:22:29
From: Jenny Myers <jenm(a)hunterlink.net.au>

Reading the mail regarding such spelling of names, my husband's family were
always saying that their MEYER family used the term MEYER VON HACKENBURG
(sp)........I believe that this usage of 'VON' relates to 'FROM',  is there
a town or village called Hackenburg somewhere within the King. of Hannover?

Regards
Jenny

Jenny Myers (MEYER)
Arcadia vale  NSW
Australia



Re: [HN] Re: Hannover-L digest Hankensbüttel

Date: 2003/02/16 14:24:26
From: Vahlbruch <klaus-moni-vahlbruch(a)t-online.de>

Hans Peter Albers schrieb:
> 
> Vahlbruch schrieb:
> > Hallo Jo, Carol, Hans Peter and anybody else looking for
> ...
> > My be that the photos are importend for local history of Hankensbüttel
> > too.
> > I may give you a scan [.jpg].
> >
> > Klaus (Vahlbruch)
> 
> Dear Klaus Vahlbruch,
> I`m not sure, if my system will work your [.jpg] out, but when you send a copy to
> anyone else, please let me have also a copy. Working on the "Deutsche Post AG"
> has been my job and so I`m still interested in his history, especially local
> histories. Many Thanks already yet for your efforts.
> 
> Hans Peter Albers, Heinrichstr. 21, 29553 biennebüttel
> E-mail: 3200977567779-0001(a)t-online.de
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Hannover-L mailing list
> Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l

************************************************************++
Hallo Hans Peter Albers,
irgendwie kann ich Sie per direkter E-mail Adresse nicht erreichen.
Ich kann Ihnen die Bilder als WORD-Dokoment schicken mit integriertem
Bild.
Ich bitte um direkte Kontaktaufnahme
Gruß Klaus (Vahlbruch)



[HN] KUMM and/or EBISCH - Tantow-Hannover

Date: 2003/02/16 14:25:23
From: Kummken <Kummken(a)aol.com>

I need help finding long lost relatives.  Ernst Ferdinand KUMM and Marie 
Dorothea EBISCH married in Hannover in 1884,

Any help appreciated.

Kenny KUMM


[HN] Relay of and investigation at Dahlenburg

Date: 2003/02/16 15:03:00
From: gutt morgan <guttmorgan(a)hotmail.com>

Carol and others,
I hope You did not think I think Twiselhop is in Lunburg area. It has to be in the Bergen church area over near Hermansburg or lower south. I only brought it up becaues the man who knew my family was familiar with it and I was trying to "flush" him out.

I did this invetigation on what I had read at Dahlenburg on- line.
I was wondering if anyone would know about this person he mentions at Oldendorf that did this research. I wonder if any of his family would be able to tell us about his research. Wouldn't that be great.

My Meyer family is from Neetzendorf and later from Oldendorf and Nahrendorf. But I am looking for Reinecke and Schultze and Behren also in hopes they would know something about my Meyer and they would after all be family too. And so I look into all names mantioned in babtisms and such that occured in Oldendorf and Nahrendorf. I have a clipping from a church volunteer that i will send later for help on. but now I must read all the emails. I haven't even finnished carols yet.














Hi,
as far as I know thee are no other books of that region which might help you. The chronicle of Charlottte Woedage is not available anymore (I guess), but you can read the online version on the Dahlenburg home page (in German). I also heard that there is/was an homeland researcher living in Oldendorf who collected a lot of information about the farmers in Oldendorf/Nahrendorf, but I think he is not living anymore. Another source could be the church records of Dahlenburg. You could also contact the church office

Ev. Pfarramt I
Johannisstr. 8
21368 Dahlenburg
Germany

The surname Meyer or Meier is very very often used in Germany. Therefore it might be very difficult to find the right Meyers in that region. When I was researching that region I gave up to find out more about "my" Meiers.

Best regards
Peter

At 17:24 13.02.03 +0000, you wrote:
Hi, I am a descendent of Juergen Heinrich Friedrich Meyer from Neetzendorf. He married Catharina Margaretha Luhmann of huse no. 2 Heinz Herman and Henning Luhmann of House no. two. His Heinrich of Quickborn was in this chronicle.

Maps would be great.
I would like to purchase the book of the chronicle of Charlottte Woedage. I want to learn more about the village she no longer had? and her family. Most of all I want to learn abut My Meyer family. I hope to see if any of my family could be in this book. I want to be able to find my Meyer family in this area. My Meyer family moved to Oldendorf and owned land there. He worked at kaiser wilhelm 1 game reserve at Röthen. I would like to find a good map of that area and information about the history of that region as well.
I also have Seil from this region and Heins.

Would there be more informtion, If I were able to find census. Are there any other books or information available for people to find their family in this region.
Could you recommend a source for my look ups.
I do not think Jonas "s Meyer family  are mine.
I would definately like to purchase the book.
Can you direct me to someone other than Jonas for some





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[HN] Hack(h)enburg, Kingd.of Hannover

Date: 2003/02/16 15:31:01
From: Hans Peter Albers <320097756779-0001(a)t-online.de>

Dear Jenny Myers,

we got a "57627 Hachenburg", which belongs today to a neighbourhood Bundesland , 
but could in former times, as it is situated very nearby - about 40 km - to 
the border to Niedersachsen, belong to the Königreich Hannover. That can be 
proofed by Lexika, which are in the greater University library available.  A 
second possibility is the place "31188 Hackenstedt", which belongs to Holle bei 
Hildesheim and that is in the former Kingdom of Hannover. An English speaker 
prononciating the name of "Hachenburg" would express it harder on "-h-", so that 
it will sound as a "-k-".
At last there is a "Hackenberg, Post Hauzendorf = 93170 Bernhardswald", but that 
is in the Oberpfalz, mostly on the way to Bavaria.

best wishes     Hans Peter Albers, Heinrichstr.21, 29553 Bienenbüttel,
                E-mail 320097756779-0001(a)t-online.de  





Re: [HN] village Twisselhop, Twiselhop- Henke surname

Date: 2003/02/16 16:13:45
From: gutt morgan <guttmorgan(a)hotmail.com>

YOU FORGOT lEIMENKUHLER. Brewers somewhere over by Eau Claire, I think. You knew that is the one I meant, right. And I have Kors or Coors, and Miller in my family!. And that is where the Hencke are. They have been found by putting Hencke into Google and you get the church of that area and thy have quite a listing. I never paid any attention to Leimenkuehler. I don't think that one is there






From: mstulken <mstulken(a)discover-net.net>
Reply-To: hannover-l(a)genealogy.net
To: hannover-l(a)genealogy.net
Subject: Re: [HN] village Twisselhop, Twiselhop- Henke surname
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 14:59:08 -0600

Speaking of Wisconsin brewing, I just found this bit of trivia in a German
chronology this morning:

1872 - Brewers Philip Best, Valentin Blatz, Franz Falk,Frederick Miller,
Jacob Obermann, Frederick Pabst, Joseph Schlitz and others make
Milwaukee the leading beer exporter

Cheers!
Marilyn in
Racine, Wisconsin

gutt morgan wrote:

> Magdalena,
> Your Veits, looks familiar. But I don't remember where. As for the Beer
> surname makes me wonder, are you in Wi?. The brewing area is a great place > to visit. Our hockey team took some Russian hockey people there once. They
> enjoyed it. I better go I am getting thirsty.
> Jo Meyer
>
> >From: MagdalenaJLM(a)aol.com
> >Reply-To: hannover-l(a)genealogy.net
> >To: hannover-l(a)genealogy.net
> >Subject: Re: [HN] village  Twisselhop, Twiselhop- Henke surname
> >Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 13:06:33 EST
> >
> >
> >My great, great, great, great grandmother was Florentina
> >Hunke/Hunken/Hencke
> >born about 1770 in Schlangen, Lippe, Germany, and died 2-10-1831 in
> >Haustenbeck, Lippe, Germany.  Florentina married Johann Heinrich Adolf
> >Leimenkuehler, born 9-17-1767, in Haustenbeck, # 29 resident. Johann and
> >Florentina were married 10-18-1789 in Haustenbeck.  Johann's father was
> >Johann (Anton) ( Toens) Leimenkuehler. Florentina's father was Joh? Con
> >Hueke/Hunken.
> >Have a Nice Day!  Jill
> >I am currently researching the following names:
> >Barlag,Bochenski,Bogdanski,Brinkmann,Ciesielski,CieszkiewiezDrehs,Dress,Dufelm
> >
> >eyer,Dufelmeier,Fuelling/Fulling,Frese,Hunken,K/Clintwood,Hirschy,Jalonski,Kam
> >
> >inski,Kozielecki,Kozielewski,Kurgan,Leimkuehler,Leimenkuhler,Mazgaj,Mesch,Obyc
> >
> >,Ostmeier/Ostmeyer,Obrock,Piechalski,Poertner,Pranten,Quell,Rak,Reker,Redecker
> >
> >,Speckmann,Thiessecharpen/Thieschaper,Thunhorst,Viel/Viets,Winteregg,Wistingha
> >
> >usen,Zinzack, Zynczak,Zinczak
> >Jill Leimkuehler
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >(MagdalenaJLM(a)aol.com)
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Hannover-L mailing list
> >Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> >http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*.
> http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l


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Re: [HN] Von in a name

Date: 2003/02/16 16:19:10
From: Wilfried Petersen <Wilfried.Petersen(a)t-online.de>

Hello Jenny,
no, there is no town or village with the name HACKENBURG nor in the former kingdom of Hannover nor in Germany of to-day. Probably "Hackenburg" ist not the name of a town or village but of a farm. Mostly the addition of a "von ..." to a name like MEYER is above all the name of a farm.
Regards 
Wilfried

"Jenny Myers" <jenm(a)hunterlink.net.au> schrieb:
> Reading the mail regarding such spelling of names, my husband's family were
> always saying that their MEYER family used the term MEYER VON HACKENBURG
> (sp)........I believe that this usage of 'VON' relates to 'FROM',  is there
> a town or village called Hackenburg somewhere within the King. of Hannover?



Re: [HN] Meyer, Radenbeck= Am I ever glad I joined this list. Thank you!!!

Date: 2003/02/16 16:21:46
From: gutt morgan <guttmorgan(a)hotmail.com>

Hans Peter Albers,



Maps, and locations are my worst thing. Next is reading handwriting. Bad typping. It doesn't make for a good genalogist. Woe is me.

I almost included Thomasburg next to Radenbeck when I put it on. Is that the church district or the address that Radenbeck would belong? It is what the records said. Radenbeck =Thomasburg. Maybe that is why I never received any mail from them. I may have written to the wrong village. Any suggestions where I should write. I can't read fast enough. More later. Thank you

From: 320097756779-0001(a)t-online.de (Hans Peter Albers)
Reply-To: hannover-l(a)genealogy.net
To: hannover-l(a)genealogy.net
Subject: [HN] Meyer, Radenbeck
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 21:12:15 +0100

Dear Gutt Morgen,

please give me next time your postal address. You wrote a lot, what will take a
bit of time to answer all. Well than, there are two "Radenbeck" in Germany:
1)Radenbeck bei Dahlenburg = 21401 Thomasburg, Kreis Lüneburg (nowadays postal
address)
2)Radenbeck bei Wittingen, Nieders. = 29378 Wittingen (nowadays postal address)

As there ar more connections into the region Lüneburg, I´m almost sure your
Radenbeck is that one you reach by 21401 Thomasburg, OT Radenbeck

In an elderly peace of family researching work: Borstelmann, Heinrich: Familien-
kunde des alten Amtes Lüne, Lüneburg 1935,
I found in this Radenbeck the following mentioning of inhabitants, which the author took from tax-lists and other official documents. So you can´t expect dates of birth, death and marriages, but you get hints for further research.

Meyer, Meier, Meyger mentioned for 21401 Radenbeck with date of mentioning:

1450: de Meyger, H.                ( the last "H." stands for Höfner)
1776: Jürgen Meyer
1785: Jürgen Hinr.,Hh.;ehem. Jacob Sommer ("Hh." means Halbhöfner and the added "ehem. Jacob Sommer" says, that he took over a half, means a small one, farm from this Jacob
                                   Sommer
1791 und 1795: Jürgen Chr., Krüger (Krüger means he had and Inn, was allowed to sell drinks, engage musicians, etc., in short
                                   words, he hold the place for feasts)

As you see, up to know there is yet no name: Heinrich Christoph Meyer. That is not astonishing, if he was not the eldest one, or that one who overtook the place of his father. I think, there must be good chance, to find the date of birth of your Heinrich Christoph Meyer in the Church Book of Thomasburg (Evangelische
Kirchengemeinde, 21401 Thomasburg).
Some years ago, i made myself researches in these Books, but I wouldn`t be able to go there before the summer, so you have to try and find someone directly under the address of the church or otherwise. Otherwise contact me in Juli or August03.

Hope, I could help you further
                                              Hans Peter Albers,
Heinrichstr. 21, 29553 Bienenbüttel, E-mail: 320097756779-0001(a)t-online.de



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Re: [HN] village Twisselhop, Twiselhop- Henke surname

Date: 2003/02/16 17:05:29
From: MagdalenaJLM <MagdalenaJLM(a)aol.com>

Looking for info on Hunke, Hunken
Have a Nice Day!  Jill



Re: [HN] Von in a name Hackenburg

Date: 2003/02/16 17:44:02
From: Werner Honkomp <Werner.Honkomp(a)t-online.de>

Maybe the spelling is wrong:

in former Kingdom of Hannover we have Hagenburg near Wunstorf or Hagenberg near Lotte/Osnabrück.

in Westphalia, former Prussia: Hackenberg as part of Bergneustadt and as part of Wipperfürth.

and some in southern of Germany.

Werner

> Hello Jenny,
> no, there is no town or village with the name HACKENBURG nor in the former
> kingdom of Hannover nor in Germany of to-day. Probably "Hackenburg" ist
> not the name of a town or village but of a farm. Mostly the addition of a
> "von ..." to a name like MEYER is above all the name of a farm.
> Regards
> Wilfried

> "Jenny Myers" <jenm(a)hunterlink.net.au> schrieb:
>> Reading the mail regarding such spelling of names, my husband's family
>> were
>> always saying that their MEYER family used the term MEYER VON HACKENBURG
>> (sp)........I believe that this usage of 'VON' relates to 'FROM',  is
>> there
>> a town or village called Hackenburg somewhere within the King. of
>> Hannover?


> _______________________________________________
> Hannover-L mailing list
> Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l



[HN] Re: Hachenburg

Date: 2003/02/16 18:11:06
From: Hans Peter Albers <320097756779-0001(a)t-online.de>

Dear Jenny Myers,
i have to apologize for my English. Please change in my answer the word 
"proofed" by "checked out".  Hans Peter Albers




[HN] Gottlock

Date: 2003/02/16 20:48:30
From: Barbara Gottlock <bgottlock(a)hvc.rr.com>

I am looking for the family GOTTLOCK who came from Hannover in 1864
Anyone else searching for them or have info on them.
 
   John gottlock
   christina gottlock
   John (son)
   Henry (son)
 
Barbara


Re: [HN] Meyer, Radenbeck= Am I ever glad I joined this list. Thank you!!!

Date: 2003/02/16 21:29:09
From: Hans Peter Albers <320097756779-0001(a)t-online.de>

Dear gutt morgan,

thanks a lot for the compliments. I almost get red ears, to take up the word of 
flushing, which occured in one of the E-mails these days, although I´m already 
beyound the age of flourishing. I thought a lot about your "Twisselhop" and found 
no place. I suggest, you try to promounce: 
                      " 27374 V i s s e l h ö v e d e " 
and if it is in any way similar, it may be the place , you are looking for. It is 
situated west of Soltau and is not to far from the Bergen place. If you have some 
thing written about the "Kresten Rezbeg, Lüneburg", equal what quality of copy of 
the original, I will try my best, to identify that place.

best wishes for us all                              Hans Peter Albers
Heinrichstr. 21, 29553Bienenbüttel, E-Mail: 320097756779-0001(a)t-online



>
> Hans Peter Albers,
>
>
>
> Maps, and locations are my worst thing. Next is  reading handwriting. Bad 
> typping.   It doesn't make for a good genalogist. Woe is me.
>
> I almost included Thomasburg next to Radenbeck when I put it on. Is that the 
> church district or the address that Radenbeck would  belong? It is what the 
> records said. Radenbeck =Thomasburg. Maybe that is why I never received any 
> mail from them. I may have written to the wrong village. Any suggestions 
> where I should write. I can't read fast enough. More later. Thank you
>
> >From: 320097756779-0001(a)t-online.de (Hans Peter Albers)
> >Reply-To: hannover-l(a)genealogy.net
> >To: hannover-l(a)genealogy.net
> >Subject: [HN] Meyer, Radenbeck
> >Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 21:12:15 +0100
> >
> >Dear Gutt Morgen,
> >
> >please give me next time your postal address. You wrote a lot, what will 
> >take a
> >bit of time to answer all. Well than, there are two "Radenbeck" in Germany:
> >1)Radenbeck bei Dahlenburg = 21401 Thomasburg, Kreis Lüneburg (nowadays 
> >postal
> >address)
> >2)Radenbeck bei Wittingen, Nieders. = 29378 Wittingen (nowadays postal 
> >address)
> >
> >As there ar more connections into the region Lüneburg, I´m almost sure your
> >Radenbeck is that one you reach by 21401 Thomasburg, OT Radenbeck
> >
> >In an elderly peace of family researching work: Borstelmann, Heinrich: 
> >Familien-
> >kunde des alten Amtes Lüne, Lüneburg 1935,
> >I found in this Radenbeck the following mentioning of inhabitants, which 
> >the
> >author took from tax-lists and other official documents. So you can´t 
> >expect
> >dates of birth, death and marriages, but you get hints for further 
> >research.
> >
> >Meyer, Meier, Meyger mentioned for 21401 Radenbeck with date of mentioning:
> >
> >1450: de Meyger, H.                ( the last "H." stands for Höfner)
> >1776: Jürgen Meyer
> >1785: Jürgen Hinr.,Hh.;ehem. Jacob Sommer ("Hh." means Halbhöfner and the 
> >added
> >                                    "ehem. Jacob Sommer" says, that he took 
> >over a
> >                                    half, means a small one, farm from this 
> >Jacob
> >                                    Sommer
> >1791 und 1795: Jürgen Chr., Krüger (Krüger means he had and Inn, was 
> >allowed to
> >                                    sell drinks, engage musicians, etc., in 
> >short
> >                                    words, he hold the place for feasts)
> >
> >As you see, up to know there is yet no name: Heinrich Christoph Meyer. That 
> >is
> >not astonishing, if he was not the eldest one, or that one who overtook the 
> >place
> >of his father. I think, there must be good chance, to find the date of 
> >birth of
> >your Heinrich Christoph Meyer in the Church Book of Thomasburg 
> >(Evangelische
> >Kirchengemeinde, 21401 Thomasburg).
> >Some years ago, i made myself researches in these Books, but I wouldn`t be 
> >able
> >to go there before the summer, so you have to try and find someone directly 
> >under
> >the address of the church or otherwise. Otherwise contact me in Juli or 
> >August03.
> >
> >Hope, I could help you further
> >                                               Hans Peter Albers,
> >Heinrichstr. 21, 29553 Bienenbüttel, E-mail: 320097756779-0001(a)t-online.de
> >
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Hannover-L mailing list
> >Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> >http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. 
> http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Hannover-L mailing list
> Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l



Re: [HN] Meyer, Radenbeck= Am I ever glad I joined this list. Thank you!!!

Date: 2003/02/17 00:42:31
From: Edward Meyer <meyereh(a)sprintmail.com>

Dear Mr. Albers,

It is interesting to read of your research in the area of Thomasburg.  You
now live in Bienenbüttel, correct?.  My ancestors came from Høsseringen
which is not so far away.  Is there any chance that your Heinrich Christoph
Meyer is in my family tree too?  Edward Meyer

----------
>From: 320097756779-0001(a)t-online.de (Hans Peter Albers)
>To: hannover-l(a)genealogy.net
>Subject: Re: [HN] Meyer, Radenbeck= Am I ever glad I joined this list. Thank
you!!!
>Date: Sun, Feb 16, 2003, 2:28 PM
>

> Dear gutt morgan,
>
> thanks a lot for the compliments. I almost get red ears, to take up the word
of
> flushing, which occured in one of the E-mails these days, although I´m already
> beyound the age of flourishing. I thought a lot about your "Twisselhop" and
found
> no place. I suggest, you try to promounce:
>                       " 27374 V i s s e l h ö v e d e "
> and if it is in any way similar, it may be the place , you are looking for. It
is
> situated west of Soltau and is not to far from the Bergen place. If you have
some
> thing written about the "Kresten Rezbeg, Lüneburg", equal what quality of copy
of
> the original, I will try my best, to identify that place.
>
> best wishes for us all                              Hans Peter Albers
> Heinrichstr. 21, 29553Bienenbüttel, E-Mail: 320097756779-0001(a)t-online
>
>
>
>>
>> Hans Peter Albers,
>>
>>
>>
>> Maps, and locations are my worst thing. Next is  reading handwriting. Bad
>> typping.   It doesn't make for a good genalogist. Woe is me.
>>
>> I almost included Thomasburg next to Radenbeck when I put it on. Is that the
>> church district or the address that Radenbeck would  belong? It is what the
>> records said. Radenbeck =Thomasburg. Maybe that is why I never received any
>> mail from them. I may have written to the wrong village. Any suggestions
>> where I should write. I can't read fast enough. More later. Thank you
>>
>> >From: 320097756779-0001(a)t-online.de (Hans Peter Albers)
>> >Reply-To: hannover-l(a)genealogy.net
>> >To: hannover-l(a)genealogy.net
>> >Subject: [HN] Meyer, Radenbeck
>> >Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 21:12:15 +0100
>> >
>> >Dear Gutt Morgen,
>> >
>> >please give me next time your postal address. You wrote a lot, what will
>> >take a
>> >bit of time to answer all. Well than, there are two "Radenbeck" in Germany:
>> >1)Radenbeck bei Dahlenburg = 21401 Thomasburg, Kreis Lüneburg (nowadays
>> >postal
>> >address)
>> >2)Radenbeck bei Wittingen, Nieders. = 29378 Wittingen (nowadays postal
>> >address)
>> >
>> >As there ar more connections into the region Lüneburg, I´m almost sure your
>> >Radenbeck is that one you reach by 21401 Thomasburg, OT Radenbeck
>> >
>> >In an elderly peace of family researching work: Borstelmann, Heinrich:
>> >Familien-
>> >kunde des alten Amtes Lüne, Lüneburg 1935,
>> >I found in this Radenbeck the following mentioning of inhabitants, which
>> >the
>> >author took from tax-lists and other official documents. So you can´t
>> >expect
>> >dates of birth, death and marriages, but you get hints for further
>> >research.
>> >
>> >Meyer, Meier, Meyger mentioned for 21401 Radenbeck with date of mentioning:
>> >
>> >1450: de Meyger, H.                ( the last "H." stands for Höfner)
>> >1776: Jürgen Meyer
>> >1785: Jürgen Hinr.,Hh.;ehem. Jacob Sommer ("Hh." means Halbhöfner and the
>> >added
>> >                                    "ehem. Jacob Sommer" says, that he took
>> >over a
>> >                                    half, means a small one, farm from this
>> >Jacob
>> >                                    Sommer
>> >1791 und 1795: Jürgen Chr., Krüger (Krüger means he had and Inn, was
>> >allowed to
>> >                                    sell drinks, engage musicians, etc., in
>> >short
>> >                                    words, he hold the place for feasts)
>> >
>> >As you see, up to know there is yet no name: Heinrich Christoph Meyer. That
>> >is
>> >not astonishing, if he was not the eldest one, or that one who overtook the
>> >place
>> >of his father. I think, there must be good chance, to find the date of
>> >birth of
>> >your Heinrich Christoph Meyer in the Church Book of Thomasburg
>> >(Evangelische
>> >Kirchengemeinde, 21401 Thomasburg).
>> >Some years ago, i made myself researches in these Books, but I wouldn`t be
>> >able
>> >to go there before the summer, so you have to try and find someone directly
>> >under
>> >the address of the church or otherwise. Otherwise contact me in Juli or
>> >August03.
>> >
>> >Hope, I could help you further
>> >                                               Hans Peter Albers,
>> >Heinrichstr. 21, 29553 Bienenbüttel, E-mail: 320097756779-0001(a)t-online.de
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >_______________________________________________
>> >Hannover-L mailing list
>> >Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
>> >http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l
>>
>>
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>
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Re: [HN] Meyer, Radenbeck= Am I ever glad I joined this list. Thank you!!!

Date: 2003/02/17 05:00:23
From: Hans Peter Albers <320097756779-0001(a)t-online.de>

Dear Mr. Edward Meyer,

it may be possible, but there is little probability without any hint for a con- 
nection. I don´t know as far your own research in the region have gone. Perhaps 
you know there is nowadays in Hösseringen a museum for agricultural life in 
former days, for which reason there were several farmhouses of sometimes hundred 
of years of age in originally way reconstructed. It´s almost a must to visit this 
place for every one who wants to get a glimpse into the way his anchestors lived 
in the last centuries before about 1900.

Let me tell you, what I found about Meyer in Hösseringen, what surely is not the 
last stage of science, but simply that, I could find in a short time. The given 
dates are taken from the work of:

Hillmer, Rolf: Geschichte der Gemeinde Suderburg, Uelzen: Becker-Verlag 1986, 
S.225 :

There is one farm, in his account Nr.18 : Hinter den Höfen, which is in the hand 
of a Hans Meyer in 1534 and belonged then to "Graf Grote / Wrestedt", for the 
actual situation in 1986 he quotes two Meyer as owner of old farmplaces, who 
still worked as farmers in 1986:

Hof Nr.1 Bauernstraße 5: August Meyer
Hof Nr.7 Heerstr. 4: Werner Meyer

by accident I found on page 89 a picture of Anna Meyer geb. Klaproth, Briefträge- 
rin im 1.Weltkrieg (means post(wo)man in Word War I). If you are interested in 
the history of Hösseringen, you should try to get the whole book.

If you want to contact anyone in Hösseringen, you have to use the postcode 
29556 Hösseringen/Suderburg

On side 223 of the work mentioned above the author Rolf Hillmer talks about a 
more detailed piece of work about the followers in farmplaces of the whole 
Suderburg villages, to which Hösseringen belongs, which he wanted to publish 
together with Prof.Dr. Hans Siebert, Heidelberg. It must have meanwhile appeared
and I even mean I have had it in my fingers some time ago in the library of the 
Genealogical Society in Hamburg: Bibliothek der Genealogischen Gesellschaft 
Hamburg, Alsterchaussee 11, 20149 Hamburg. As the author is a former leader of  
the Hamburg Genealogical Society you can expect a lot of information from this 
piece of work.

For more, it is in any case needable and helpful, that you give more information 
about the last exact knowings of birth, death or marriage and your E-mail-number, 
perhaps I can lead your question to someone of that library.

Hope, I could help you so far    
                                        Hans Peter Albers
Heinrichstr. 21, 29553 Bienenbüttel  E-mail 320097756779-0001(a)t-online.de




Re: [HN] KUMM and/or EBISCH - Tantow-Hannover

Date: 2003/02/17 06:54:49
From: Barbara Stewart <raymondg(a)attbi.com>

Hello,

    I'm wondering what the Tantow means - is that where they were married? I
don't think that would be in Hannover.  The only town I see with that name
is very far east (Brandenburg) close to the Polish border. Unless you mean
Tankow which is in Mecklenburg.  Do you have birthdates or places?

Barbara Stewart



on 2/16/03 6:25 AM, Kummken(a)aol.com at Kummken(a)aol.com wrote:

> I need help finding long lost relatives.  Ernst Ferdinand KUMM and Marie
> Dorothea EBISCH married in Hannover in 1884,
> 
> Any help appreciated.
> 
> Kenny KUMM
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Hannover-L mailing list
> Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l



[HN] Photographs

Date: 2003/02/17 07:31:04
From: Cactus Flower <barbie8674(a)hotmail.com>

Dear List,

I was wondering if there might be a German website that posts photographs of unknown people. I have a few photographs..I think mostly from Hamburg area..that I can't identify.

I also have a few that have first names/places on the back..some dated and some that say where they were developed. But..I don't know who the people are except for a first name in most cases. Perhaps one or Two may have a surname... Where could I post to try to find possible relatives?

I was hoping someone could guide me to a German website that might publish photos of unknown people, hoping they could be identified.

Barbie




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Re: [HN] Re: Hannover-L digest, Vol 1 #855 - 10 msgs

Date: 2003/02/17 17:16:40
From: Fred Rump <fredrump(a)earthlink.net>

On 16 Feb 2003 at 0:48, Hans Peter Albers wrote:

> By the way "Duevell" sounds a bit as "Düwel" and this is in
> the dialect, which was more often talked in former times, bur ist
> still alive and called: "Plattdeutsch", the same word you used in
> English: "devil". As the change was in chronological order from
> "Dügenfeldt" into "Düvell" it is more probably the fine french art,
> which was the reason.
>

Hmmm, this Dügenfeldt = Düvell has has me intrigued. Is there any
proof of this?

I see Düvell/Duwell/Duvell/Duvel in various very old historical
references all the time. The name seems to have been around at least
since the Middle Ages as just another version of the modern Teufel or
devil. The Dügenfeldt connection is a new one on me.

Strangely a copy of a document written by the 'fürstliche Richter
Raban Wilhelm Hermann Düvell zu Friesoythe' (ad raticationem
Celsissimi subscripti) on Dec. 6, 1710 lies next to me here.

While I'm at it I might as well list the judges (Richter) which
functioned in Friesoythe over time:

Johann von Kurck 1433-1472
Hermann tor Mölen 1472-1498
Wilke Tamelink 1531-1535
Herbert Tamelink 1560-1601
Conrad Tamelink 1601-1619
Johann Pfannenschmidt 1619-1664
Gotfried Düvell 1670-1705
Raban Wilhelm Düvell 1706-1725
Johann Dominicus Niccius 1726-1733
Caspar Arnold Ignaz Nacke (Richter zu Vechta) 1734
Bernard Anton Dörsten 1737
Benhard Hermann Dörsten 1740-1707
Gerhard Anton Hammer 1797-1798
Josef Jansen 1799-1803

As I'm paging through a report on the judgeships of the old Amt
Cloppenburg, I see Duvel/Duvell back to the 1400's.

Fred


   4788 Corian Court
Naples, FL 34114
239-775-7838; 239-269-4781 (cell)
FredRump(a)earthlink.net





Re: [HN] Re: Hannover-L digest, Vol 1 #855 - 10 msgs

Date: 2003/02/17 17:16:40
From: Fred Rump <fredrump(a)earthlink.net>

On 15 Feb 2003 at 16:15, Carol M. Duff wrote:

>  The Düvell family name was changed from
> Dügenfeldt in the 1700's. (That I don't understand......why would
> someone change there surname to devil?)

More then likely a change happened bacause someone moved into a new
place because of marriage or purchase. Folks would go by the place
where they lived or at least others would refer to the people living
there by the name of the farm and that name would tend to stick.

Fred

PS I now understand the name change better. In my other post I
thought it was series of phonetic changes that caused the change.
That would be have been just about imnpossible.

 4788 Corian Court
Naples, FL 34114
239-775-7838; 239-269-4781 (cell)
FredRump(a)earthlink.net





Re: [HN] KUMM and/or EBISCH - Tantow-Hannover

Date: 2003/02/17 17:38:22
From: Barbara Stewart <raymondg(a)attbi.com>

Hello again,
    Both names, Tantow and Randow are in the area of Brandenburg.  You might
try this website on Brandenburg and it may lead to some help to obtain
information (perhaps writing a church, etc).  The LDS don't have much from
that area, but I'll explore some more and let you know. Go to this:

   http://www.genealogienetz.de/reg/BRG/bb.html




on 2/16/03 6:25 AM, Kummken(a)aol.com at Kummken(a)aol.com wrote:

> I need help finding long lost relatives.  Ernst Ferdinand KUMM and Marie
> Dorothea EBISCH married in Hannover in 1884,
> 
> Any help appreciated.
> 
> Kenny KUMM
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Hannover-L mailing list
> Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l



[HN] Heinrich Cohrs from Bindsmirowitz 1860

Date: 2003/02/17 17:45:25
From: D53a <D53a(a)aol.com>

Hello,

I have been researching my Cohrs ancestors (Henrich born about 1804, wife Sophia Miller, sons Ludwig & Henrich, daughters Maria & Elizabeth) who came from Hannover in 1860 on the vessel Dr. Barth.  Lutheran church records in Michigan show son Henrich born 7 Apr 1843 in Bindsmirowitz, which I have been unable to find.

In 1903 a Michigan grandson of Heinrich 1804 wrote the following: The ancestry of the Cohrs family for many generations had been Hanoverian.  They were of the peasantry, but the family had always been in comfortable circumstances.  About the middle of the last century Henry Cohrs, who was a man of strong intellectual powers and fair education, became imbued with an ambition to better the condition of his family.  He traced back the family record and found that his family, while honored and respected among their neighbors, had never been able to accomplish more than the securing of a fairly comfortable livelihood.  The present he knew was fruitful of no better things and as for the future, the promise of better conditions was at best but vague and shadowy.

The following German phrase (as best I can make out) is on Heinrich's gravestone.  

Zur Ruh Gist Nu geg r,ngpi
Unsterblich Leben hotangefungen
Jenseits von dem stillenlr,fer
Die seele horldes Vaters Ruf,ste schuingtauf zum Himmelszelf
Um,einzugelin zuk bessian well
Ueber wum deb ist Dein Schmerz
San ft rube nun o suszes Herz

A picture of an anchor is etched above this phrase.  A German relative roughly translated this passage as "To rest you have gone, eternal life has started, rest in peace.  The soul heard the father calling, looking up to heavens home. You moved to a better world.  Gone is your pain.  Rest now my sweetest heart."

Does anyone have any suggestions for further research on my Cohrs ancestors?

Have a great day!
Dawn


[HN] Heinrich Cohrs from Bindsmirowitz 1860

Date: 2003/02/17 17:46:17
From: D53a <D53a(a)aol.com>

Hello,

I have been researching my Cohrs ancestors (Henrich born about 1804, wife Sophia Miller, sons Ludwig & Henrich, daughters Maria & Elizabeth) who came from Hannover in 1860 on the vessel Dr. Barth.  Lutheran church records in Michigan show son Henrich born 7 Apr 1843 in Bindsmirowitz, which I have been unable to find.

In 1903 a Michigan grandson of Heinrich 1804 wrote the following: The ancestry of the Cohrs family for many generations had been Hanoverian.  They were of the peasantry, but the family had always been in comfortable circumstances.  About the middle of the last century Henry Cohrs, who was a man of strong intellectual powers and fair education, became imbued with an ambition to better the condition of his family.  He traced back the family record and found that his family, while honored and respected among their neighbors, had never been able to accomplish more than the securing of a fairly comfortable livelihood.  The present he knew was fruitful of no better things and as for the future, the promise of better conditions was at best but vague and shadowy.

The following German phrase (as best I can make out) is on Heinrich's gravestone.  

Zur Ruh Gist Nu geg r,ngpi
Unsterblich Leben hotangefungen
Jenseits von dem stillenlr,fer
Die seele horldes Vaters Ruf,ste schuingtauf zum Himmelszelf
Um,einzugelin zuk bessian well
Ueber wum deb ist Dein Schmerz
San ft rube nun o suszes Herz

A picture of an anchor is etched above this phrase.  A German relative roughly translated this passage as "To rest you have gone, eternal life has started, rest in peace.  The soul heard the father calling, looking up to heavens home. You moved to a better world.  Gone is your pain.  Rest now my sweetest heart."

Does anyone have any suggestions for further research on my Cohrs ancestors?

Have a great day!
Dawn


[HN] Heinrich Cohrs of Bindsmirowitz immigrated in 1860

Date: 2003/02/17 17:47:16
From: D53a <D53a(a)aol.com>

Hello,

I have been researching my Cohrs ancestors (Henrich born about 1804, wife Sophia Miller, sons Ludwig & Henrich, daughters Maria & Elizabeth) who came from Hannover in 1860 on the vessel Dr. Barth.  Lutheran church records in Michigan show son Henrich born 7 Apr 1843 in Bindsmirowitz, which I have been unable to find.

In 1903 a Michigan grandson of Heinrich 1804 wrote the following: The ancestry of the Cohrs family for many generations had been Hanoverian.  They were of the peasantry, but the family had always been in comfortable circumstances.  About the middle of the last century Henry Cohrs, who was a man of strong intellectual powers and fair education, became imbued with an ambition to better the condition of his family.  He traced back the family record and found that his family, while honored and respected among their neighbors, had never been able to accomplish more than the securing of a fairly comfortable livelihood.  The present he knew was fruitful of no better things and as for the future, the promise of better conditions was at best but vague and shadowy.

The following German phrase (as best I can make out) is on Heinrich's gravestone.  

Zur Ruh Gist Nu geg r,ngpi
Unsterblich Leben hotangefungen
Jenseits von dem stillenlr,fer
Die seele horldes Vaters Ruf,ste schuingtauf zum Himmelszelf
Um,einzugelin zuk bessian well
Ueber wum deb ist Dein Schmerz
San ft rube nun o suszes Herz

A picture of an anchor is etched above this phrase.  A German relative roughly translated this passage as "To rest you have gone, eternal life has started, rest in peace.  The soul heard the father calling, looking up to heavens home. You moved to a better world.  Gone is your pain.  Rest now my sweetest heart."

Does anyone have any suggestions for further research on my Cohrs ancestors?

Have a great day!
Dawn


Re: [HN] Re: Hannover-L digest, Vol 1 #855 - 10 msgs

Date: 2003/02/17 19:20:34
From: Hans Peter Albers <320097756779-0001(a)t-online.de>

Dear Fred Rump,

by all the "Düvell", hasn`t been my intention to intrigue you. So there was no 
determinations of concrete time of change of name, I tried to find possible 
explanations. As the writing "Düvell" for me sounds more similar to the French 
"Duval" than to the Plattdeutsch "Düwel", I suggested as a possible explanation 
some fashionable reason, which might occure in a special period of strengthened 
French influence in the northern parts of Germnany. So you find in this time a 
lot of French prenames in the parish books. As for example "Lucia" now  was 
written "Louise" or from "Sofia" one changes to "Sophie", even "Karla" some- 
times became "Charlotte". But as I wrote, there may be a lot of othr reasons. 
The proof you are looking for is - if I got you right - the concrete change of 
the Duff example from Dügenfeldt to Düvell. I had no doubt, that the change has 
happened, but as religion had a greater meaning than today, why should anyone 
choose voluntary the "devil"-meaning for a new name. That seems to be something 
else than being accustomed since generations to such a name. For the people who 
mostly could not speak and understand anaything else than their dialect, one may 
assume that they were not able to recognize the meaning of "Düwel", in what they 
had the meaning of "devil", in the name "Düvell". That as more as it was 
pronounced weak on the "v" and long and weak on "ll" at the end. I don´t know the 
spread of "Düvell" in different types of social groups, but your example leads to 
the better situated people by that time. So I would after all not say, that is 
has just been a name as all the other ones. But you might have more experience in 
research of the "Düvell" and others. I am with you, when you say, in "Dügenfeldt" 
there is no visible semantic connection to the "devil"- semantic. So there must 
be another reason than the slightly change, to come from "Dügenfeldt" to 
"Düvell". Vanity has always been in history of great influence, i tried to take 
that into considerations, even those are no substitute for real proof.

Hope no one got tired from the above   
                                         Hans Peter Albers  
Heinrichstr. 21, 29553 Bienenbüttel     E-Mail:320097756779-0001(a)t-online.de



Re: [HN] Heinrich Cohrs - german phrase

Date: 2003/02/17 19:38:53
From: Vahlbruch <klaus-moni-vahlbruch(a)t-online.de>

D53a(a)aol.com schrieb:
> 
> Hello,
> 
	
> Zur Ruh Gist Nu geg r,ngpi		Zur Ruh bist Du eingegangen (heimgegangen)
> Unsterblich Leben hotangefungen	Unsterblich Leben hat angefangen
> Jenseits von dem stillenlr,fer	Jenseits von dem stillen Ufer
> Die seele horldes Vaters Ruf,ste	Die Seele hört des Vaters Ruf(e)
 schuingtauf zum Himmelszelf		Schwingt auf zum Himmelszelt
> Um,einzugelin zuk bessian well	Um einzugehn zur bessren Welt
> Ueber wum deb ist Dein Schmerz	Überwunden ist Dein Schmerz
> San ft rube nun o suszes Herz		Sanft ruhe nun o süßes Herz
> 
> A picture of an anchor is etched above this phrase.  
	A German relative roughly translated this passage as 

	To rest you have gone, 
	eternal life has started, 
	rest in peace.  
	The soul heard the father calling, 
	looking up to heavens home. 
	You moved to a better world.  
	Gone is your pain.  
	Rest now my sweetest heart."
> 
> Does anyone have any suggestions for further research on my Cohrs ancestors?
> 
> Have a great day!
> Dawn
******************************************************************
Hi Dawn,
I try to restore the phrase on Heinrich´s gravestone.
May be anybody does a better job.

Have a good night!
Klaus (Vahlbruch)



[HN] question

Date: 2003/02/17 19:41:00
From: Susan Westhoff <subwest(a)attbi.com>

I'm researching Henry Stage, born 29 Aug, 1830 in Hanover, Germany. He emigrated to NY in 1851 with his mother and sister. My question is this: are Hanover and Hannover the same place?
Susan
subwest(a)attbi.com


[HN] Information on a schfer or shepherd Life

Date: 2003/02/17 19:49:35
From: gutt morgan <guttmorgan(a)hotmail.com>


I hope someone can inform me about this. It may help me in my research.
My family in the area I have shown you started as shepherds. Heinrich Christoph Meyer in Radenbeck was also a shepherd. The man who did some investigation at Nahrendorf church books told me that shepherd sheep and cattle people married other sheep and cattle people. How did they get their jobs. HOw did they get to move from job to job.? and did they own land too. Were there some kind of guild or such that they belonged to later. Say if they were landoners too and had cows or sheep of their own. Such as dairy. Were they let in these guilds easily. Did guild members marry other guild members. Any informtion about this kind of life would help me see the picture. It may help me read the information about taxes and such on Microfilm, if I know what to expect. I have read mauch informtion in earlier years of 1997 and 1998 about the life. I don't think this area was covered. Naturally mine were Meyer. But not as the name intended.

I also have read in that Dahlenburg chronicle about a Mark servant and one of my babtismal sponsers was a mark servant. Is this a step up of Meyer.
Jo Meyer


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Re: [HN] question

Date: 2003/02/17 19:49:50
From: Gloepertz <Gloepertz(a)aol.com>

Susan
They are the same, BUT, are you looking for the city of Hannover or are you 
looking for the Kingdom of Hannover?
It's like saying, I just came back from New York, New York City or maybe 
Buffalo or Ogdensburg. 
Guenter in Michigan


Re: [HN] question

Date: 2003/02/17 20:40:35
From: Wilfried Petersen <Wilfried.Petersen(a)t-online.de>

"Susan Westhoff" <subwest(a)attbi.com> schrieb:
 My question is this: are Hanover and Hannover the same place?

Yes, they are. Hannover is the correct spelling in German.
But there exists also the Kingdom of Hannover at that time (until 1866). Are you sure that the place of birth is the city of Hannover? Frequently for the emigrants Hannover means the kingdom.
Regards
Wilfried



Re: [HN] question

Date: 2003/02/17 21:15:14
From: Susan Westhoff <subwest(a)attbi.com>

I don't know. How do I find out?

----- Original Message -----
From: "Wilfried Petersen" <Wilfried.Petersen(a)t-online.de>
To: <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
Sent: Monday, February 17, 2003 1:39 PM
Subject: Re: [HN] question


"Susan Westhoff" <subwest(a)attbi.com> schrieb:
 My question is this: are Hanover and Hannover the same place?

Yes, they are. Hannover is the correct spelling in German.
But there exists also the Kingdom of Hannover at that time (until 1866). Are
you sure that the place of birth is the city of Hannover? Frequently for the
emigrants Hannover means the kingdom.
Regards
Wilfried


_______________________________________________
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Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l




Re: [HN] Stagge Hannover

Date: 2003/02/17 21:43:08
From: Werner Honkomp <Werner.Honkomp(a)t-online.de>

I believe Hanover is the english spelling for Hannover, mostly means the former old Kingdom of Hannover, now Niedersachen (Lower Saxony).

The emigrants book of the former Landkreis Lingen (county), located in the Kingdom of Hannover shows one Stagge, maybe releated to yours:

Stagge Johann Heinrich, born 17.Jun.1845 in Wettrup (parish Lingen), Zimmermann (Carpenter), emigrated 1868, parents: Colon(farmer) Gerhard Wilhelm Stagge and Anna Gesina Buurke.

Werner

> I'm researching Henry Stage, born 29 Aug, 1830 in Hanover, Germany. He
> emigrated to NY in 1851 with his mother and sister. My question is this:
> are Hanover and Hannover the same place?
> Susan
> subwest(a)attbi.com

> _______________________________________________
> Hannover-L mailing list
> Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l



Re: [HN] Information on a schäfer or shepherd Life

Date: 2003/02/17 21:48:56
From: Hans Peter Albers <320097756779-0001(a)t-online.de>

Dear gutt morgan,

as my anchestors were sheperds and musicians as far as i could find them back and 
they had the same name as I, perhaps I can help a bit another time.

At first during since the middle age up to about 185o the landscape "Lüneburger 
Heide", all places you told me belong there to, had shortness of trees. That was 
needed in Lüneburg for getting the salt out of salt-water and on the baldness gr 
especially the Erica. These places were not useful for other beasts than sheep. 
That`s the reason why you find so much shepherds in the parish books. 

Where there have been monasteries, these had often their own flock and for that 
theier shepherds. In the villages the shepherd had to keep care of all sheeps of 
the village people, as there were also herdsman for pigs and cows. The places 
were the different herds and flocks were kept and nourished were first common 
places of the village, what was not valid for the farms. These were led on own 
account of the "Höfner, Halbhöfner" , but belonged to the "Grundherr", to whom 
had to be paid for the lend. In social hierarchy, the shepherds were beyond this 
peasants. But nevertheless they were part of the community and stayed in the 
village. So they didn`t have to turn around the country looking for new existence 
and frh nourishment for sheeps. Everywhere they could go, they would have come 
upon other villages and shepherds. So things were regulated by the possibilities 
inside the borders of a village. It may be of that reason, that there are so many 
documents in the archives. Everything had to be regulated. The developemnet went 
to more individualisation. So the common property of the village was given up and 
everyone cared about his own horses cattle, pigs, and sheeps. For everyone tried 
to earn his living by peasantry, the sheep ground was more and more used for 
woodproduktion, grain etc. So the shepherds became less and had to look for other 
professions. For example mine became musicians, others peasants. The whole 
differentiation of tailors, shoemaker, slaughter increased. Between 1820 and 1840 
the common used places came to an end. There were build new farms into these 
former area, whereever it seemed possible to keep a new farm alive.

So that`s in short form the developement, which is in the concrete cases and with 
it´s changes over the hundreds of years much more complicated. As there were no 
idea of love-marriages in the country people, everyone looked to keep his stan- 
ding in the village. The rich peasants did not marry to the poor peasants and so 
on. So that doesn`t mean, that there was no vertical change at all possible. But 
that took work of generations, later on because of increase of population there 
were more people than traditional and grown positions in such villages. That was 
the time of beginning migration.    

I forgot to answer the question, if they could be landowners. Everyone was a 
gardener in the village and kept as much beast as possible. But as you could not 
buy the nourishment as nowadays it was limited to the possibility of producing 
capacities in form from green land etc. If someone managed to get this by and by, 
you`ll find them later one in registers with the "Höfner". I never found 
something similar for the shepherds in form of guilds as there has been 
for craftsman.
 
One word more to your "Twisselhop". I`m almost sure that that place is the 
"Visselhövede" I told you. The explanation is "Twisselhop" is just  the 
"plattdeutsche" word for "Visselhövede". I was puzzling, because I wasn`t aware 
anyware deep in the United States someone speaks this dialect. Tell me one day,  
if I was right.

so much for today                          Hans Peter Albers

 



Re: [HN] Re: Hannover-L digest, Vol 1 #855 - 10 msgs

Date: 2003/02/17 23:48:09
From: Fred Rump <fredrump(a)earthlink.net>

On 17 Feb 2003 at 19:20, Hans Peter Albers wrote:

Oh boy!

> by all the "Düvell", hasn`t been my intention to intrigue you. So
> there was no determinations of concrete time of change of name, I
> tried to find possible explanations.

I think we already established that any connection between Dügenfeldt
and Düvell, however you spell the latter. Such a sudden name change
would have had other reasons the mostly likely being the farm name
change I mentioned.

>As the writing "Düvell" for me
> sounds more similar to the French "Duval" than to the Plattdeutsch
> "Düwel", I suggested as a possible explanation some fashionable
> reason, which might occure in a special period of strengthened French
> influence in the northern parts of Germnany. So you find in this time
> a lot of French prenames in the parish books.

While I agree that French cultural influenced had their measure in
Germany especially during the hight of the Prussian era, this did not
affect the common people out in the country very much. Our 'uppity'
class of city slickers and nobelity cared about such thing and even
knoew about them while the folks out in the Bauerschaft really had no
connection to anything French. They simply went on with life as they
always had. Over time most French influence was Germanized so that
even emigrants from France after the recall of the Edict of Nantes
eventaully wound up having German sounding names. It's the way tings
have always gone in that a dominating culture will take precedence
over time.

>As for example "Lucia"
> now  was written "Louise" or from "Sofia" one changes to "Sophie",
> even "Karla" some- times became "Charlotte".

Lucia is Italian I believe. I thought that Luise/Louise/Lisa is just
a short form for Elisabeth. Or is it simply the female form of Louis
that long line of 16 French kings? The German version being Ludwig? I
dodn't know. I have no reference material handy.

But in general such minor deviations had little to do with French
culture as the names quickly became purely German names and the
people had no idea that an earlier version started in some other
country.

There was much more Latinization of previously German names where
even my name shows up as Rumpius in the 16th century when such names
changes were in vogue by the priests who knew Latin and started
chaging peoples names.


>But as I wrote, there may
> be a lot of othr reasons. The proof you are looking for is - if I got
> you right - the concrete change of the Duff example from Dügenfeldt to
> Düvell. I had no doubt, that the change has happened, but as religion
> had a greater meaning than today, why should anyone choose voluntary
> the "devil"-meaning for a new name.

All it took was a marriage into the Duwell family.

> That seems to be something else
> than being accustomed since generations to such a name. For the people
> who mostly could not speak and understand anaything else than their
> dialect, one may assume that they were not able to recognize the
> meaning of "Düwel", in what they had the meaning of "devil", in the
> name "Düvell".

I don't know about that. Even if they did, people did not simply
change their names because they didn't like them. Such things
happened much later in time.

>That as more as it was pronounced weak on the "v" and
> long and weak on "ll" at the end. I don´t know the spread of "Düvell"
> in different types of social groups, but your example leads to the
> better situated people by that time. So I would after all not say,
> that is has just been a name as all the other ones.

If the better situated people didn't mind keeping the name, the less
powerful person only concerned with having food in his mouth the next
day would certainly not bother to change it either. My example just
happened to be next to me but these people all were farmers just like
everyone else. They were simply bigger farmers and that is why they
held powerful positions. But there were plenty of very ordinary
Duvells around northern Germany too. It had become just another name.

>But you might have
> more experience in research of the "Düvell" and others.

I really dodn't. I just remember some older discussions of Duwell in
Osnabrück I think it was even in Bissendorf. So when I now run into
the name my memory banks perk up and I see it pop up out of a page of
otherwise irrelevant data. I'm sure many of us have such recall.

>I am with you,
> when you say, in "Dügenfeldt" there is no visible semantic connection
> to the "devil"- semantic. So there must be another reason than the
> slightly change, to come from "Dügenfeldt" to "Düvell". Vanity has
> always been in history of great influence, i tried to take that into
> considerations, even those are no substitute for real proof.

Without knowledge to the contrary the change was probably the typical
move into a new farm name change.

> Hope no one got tired from the above

No, no. It's always interesting to have a good conversation.

Fred

4788 Corian Court
Naples, FL 34114
239-775-7838; 239-269-4781 (cell)
FredRump(a)earthlink.net





[HN] Linneman Redux

Date: 2003/02/17 23:54:39
From: Gilbert Neal <gneal(a)nc.rr.com>

Frederick Linneman came to Buffalo New York from Hannover in 1941 or 42
or 43. Are there extant ship records detailing passengers from hannover
to the US? 






Re: [HN] Linneman Redux

Date: 2003/02/18 00:43:49
From: Gary E. Myer <bruggeym(a)bcpl.net>

Gilbert,
Is that "1841 or 42 or 43" or "1941 . . ."??
If 1841 . . . then the ship's lists for New York from 1820 to 1846 have been indexed and the index and originals are on microfilm here at the National Archives in D.C. There are no specific lists "detailing passengers from Hannover"--just the embarcation lists from certain ports such as Hamburg (1850 and on) and a few other ports. More importantly, the arrival lists at U.S. ports are largely extant (Boston, New York, Philadelphia, Baltimore, New Orleans, to name a few).

Some local historians in Germany, including Hannover, have invested a good portion of their lives researching various kinds of records over there (emigration permits, church registers etc.) and have published impressive compendia (in German) for their particular regions--for example, Werner Honkamp just mentioned a publication on emigrants from the Amt (or was it Kreis?) of Lingen. There are others on Braunschweig, Minden, Münster etc. If you are lucky, your immigrant ancestor will appear in one of these, because they are more detailed than ships' lists!

I do get over to the National Archives on occasion for clients, so if you need help with checking the ships' lists, let me know.

--Gary

Gilbert Neal wrote:

Frederick Linneman came to Buffalo New York from Hannover in 1941 or 42
or 43. Are there extant ship records detailing passengers from hannover
to the US?




_______________________________________________
Hannover-L mailing list
Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l



--
Gary E. Myer
37 Colonial Drive
Linthicum Heights, MD 21090
(voice) 410-636-1113 (email) bruggeym(a)bcpl.net
I Cor 13:4 (from "The Message", Eugene H. Peterson's transl. of NT)





Re: [HN] Re: Hannover-L digest, Vol 1 #855 - 10 msgs

Date: 2003/02/18 00:51:43
From: Hans Peter Albers <320097756779-0001(a)t-online.de>

Fred Rump schrieb: On 17 Feb 2003 at 19:20,

....

Dear Fred Rumpius,

in the end, I think, we are not too far from each other. My examples are from the 
parish book concerning a Priest family between 1790 to 1820, your explanations 
presume a far earlier change in a farm place, which caused the takeover of the 
farmname. So we can do on that subject nothing else, than ask the one who first 
questioned, which was the exact documented date of change. 

But as we are on that theme, let me ask the question: up to which time do you 
count with occurencies of taking over a name from a farm as the further name ? 
Up to now, I thought we are through with this about 1700 and afterwards names 
were principally and in normal cases unchangeable on that way.

Thanks a lot for your opinion                Hans Peter Albers  




Re: [HN] Re: Hannover-L digest, Vol 1 #855 - 10 msgs

Date: 2003/02/18 00:55:03
From: ... valentine53179 <valentine53179(a)hotmail.com>

hans peter -
are you saying you physically have a book with details - birthdates - on the
priest family?
valentine


----- Original Message -----
From: "Hans Peter Albers" <320097756779-0001(a)t-online.de>
To: <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
Sent: Monday, February 17, 2003 5:51 PM
Subject: Re: [HN] Re: Hannover-L digest, Vol 1 #855 - 10 msgs


> Fred Rump schrieb: On 17 Feb 2003 at 19:20,
>
> ....
>
> Dear Fred Rumpius,
>
> in the end, I think, we are not too far from each other. My examples are
from the
> parish book concerning a Priest family between 1790 to 1820, your
explanations
> presume a far earlier change in a farm place, which caused the takeover of
the
> farmname. So we can do on that subject nothing else, than ask the one who
first
> questioned, which was the exact documented date of change.
>
> But as we are on that theme, let me ask the question: up to which time do
you
> count with occurencies of taking over a name from a farm as the further
name ?
> Up to now, I thought we are through with this about 1700 and afterwards
names
> were principally and in normal cases unchangeable on that way.
>
> Thanks a lot for your opinion                Hans Peter Albers
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Hannover-L mailing list
> Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l
>


[HN] ancestor in Hannover

Date: 2003/02/18 03:07:58
From: Carol M. Duff <duffc(a)redwing.net>

As we search for ancestors, we also search for interesting stories about them. Some of the stories are very sad, however. As I read about family records in the church, I found more than one death record where the person died of starvation or on others it said, the person froze and then all four limbs swelled for cause of death. I can see why some wanted to get away. Carol




[HN] Re: Bindsmirowitz

Date: 2003/02/18 03:21:57
From: angie-web <angie-web(a)webtv.net>

First off, linguistically, that name instantly says Eastern Europe to
me, not Hannover, unless Napolean brought them back with him :-)  Are
you sure that last birth record wasn't a clerical error in the
churchbook, where a birth in another family was combined on the page
somehow? I can't find any town with that name, either, but I found
someone's posting about their Mirowitz family name which was found in
"Bedzin" area of Poland? Tongue-twister to be sure.



Re: [HN] Information on a schfer - hans peter Albers

Date: 2003/02/18 06:40:18
From: gutt morgan <guttmorgan(a)hotmail.com>


Hi, once more for today. I have had this for a little while. I do not understand why spelling it that way does not wor with Jewish gen shtetlseeker or map quest. but this is how I tried it last resort. Twißelhop. some one had suggested I try Inuerto which I never use. It is hard to explain the results. those numbers ... Dienstleistungen nach Regionen 20000-29999
Details zur P L Z:  29303
Straße:            Twißelhop
Ortsname:          Bergen
Bundesland:        Niedersachsen
Regierungsbezirk:  Reg.-Bez. Luneburg
Kries Celle oops I had said Uelzen, didn't I. Shame on me No wonder i get no where!
Gemeinde:          Bergen, Stadt
I still can't find it shown on a map. But at least it exists.

I think Cruetzen or Kreutzen of Luneburg is of Trauen. [ maybe müden or Örtze. Which is in the Luthern Bergen church area. I enlarged it once and there was something there called Creutzen.
Sorry, I really must learn how to name areas.
Thank you for the great info. now I am going to devour it and digest it.



From: 320097756779-0001(a)t-online.de (Hans Peter Albers)
Reply-To: hannover-l(a)genealogy.net
To: hannover-l(a)genealogy.net
Subject: Re: [HN] Information on  a schäfer or shepherd   Life
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 21:48:45 +0100

One word more to your "Twisselhop". I`m almost sure that that place is the
"Visselhövede" I told you. The explanation is "Twisselhop" is just  the
"plattdeutsche" word for "Visselhövede". I was puzzling, because I wasn`t aware anyware deep in the United States someone speaks this dialect. Tell me one day,
if I was right.

so much for today                          Hans Peter Albers




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Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l


_________________________________________________________________
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[HN] Re: Hannover-L digest, Vol 1 #858 - 15 msgs

Date: 2003/02/18 08:03:34
From: Jim Eggert <EggertJ(a)crosswinds.net>

on 2/16/03, Werner.Honkomp(a)t-online.de (Werner Honkomp) wrote:

> in former Kingdom of Hannover we have Hagenburg near Wunstorf or Hagenberg=
> near Lotte/Osnabrück.

Hagenburg near Wunstorf was never in the former Kingdom of Hannover.  It was
in Schaumburg-Lippe.

-- 
=Jim Eggert  EggertJ(a)crosswinds.net



Re: [HN] Re: Hannover-L digest, Vol 1 #855 - 10 msgs

Date: 2003/02/18 09:23:34
From: Hans Peter Albers <320097756779-0001(a)t-online.de>

... valentine53179 schrieb:
> hans peter -
> are you saying you physically have a book with details - birthdates - on the
> priest family?
> valentine

Sorry, I had to be more correct, my conclusion were based on information which 
were taken from the copies I made out of a  parish book about the family of a 
priest long time ago. As I`m new on the list, my English just starts to come back 
again. I think there is no private property in physical parish books. But there 
are a lot of parishes, which are still in possession of their books, even if 
those are hundreds of years in age and quite worthy. It takes a lot of time to 
make a date for such a rendez-vous with the original entry of your anchestor, 
but it is possible, if the pastor allows and has got the time. In most cases 
there is someone, who is authorized to seek for you and you have pay the used 
time. As the parish book are today mostly on film, thre are a lot of parishes, 
which say, please look there for reason of protection of the old books. 

Hope this was the answer to your question.               Hans Peter Albers





Re: [HN] Stagge Hannover

Date: 2003/02/18 09:29:53
From: CarolSue Robinson <cswr(a)earthlink.net>

Thank you Werner....I have always thought that Hanover referred
to the City of Hanover, and that Hannover was the Province (sort of
like the Rhine Province).  I had that impression through some of the
Census records, and the way the locations were described....Carol

Werner Honkomp wrote:

I believe Hanover is the english spelling for Hannover, mostly means the former old Kingdom of Hannover, now Niedersachen (Lower Saxony).

The emigrants book of the former Landkreis Lingen (county), located in the Kingdom of Hannover shows one Stagge, maybe releated to yours:

Stagge Johann Heinrich, born 17.Jun.1845 in Wettrup (parish Lingen), Zimmermann (Carpenter), emigrated 1868, parents: Colon(farmer) Gerhard Wilhelm Stagge and Anna Gesina Buurke.

Werner





Re: [HN] Von in a name

Date: 2003/02/18 13:22:51
From: Jenny Myers <jenm(a)hunterlink.net.au>

Thank you Hans and Wilfried for your informative responses.

Regards
Jenny

Jenny Myers - Arcadia Vale  NSW on beautiful Lake Macquarie
President Lake Macquarie F H Group NSW  http://www.lmfhg.hl.com.au
OPEN DAY & WORKSHOP, Multi Purpose Centre, Toronto NSW, Saturday 15 March,
2003.

Member Wivelsfield History Study Group SSX
Member Maitland F H Circle NSW




Re: [HN] Re: Hachenburg

Date: 2003/02/18 15:31:26
From: Edward Meyer <meyereh(a)sprintmail.com>

Hello List Members,

In our research we find that some persons listed their work as Cossath.  We
have been unable to determine what that means.  Thank you for a response.

Edward Meyer

----------
>From: 320097756779-0001(a)t-online.de (Hans Peter Albers)
>To: hannover-l(a)genealogy.net
>Subject: [HN] Re: Hachenburg
>Date: Sun, Feb 16, 2003, 11:10 AM
>

> Dear Jenny Myers,
> i have to apologize for my English. Please change in my answer the word
> "proofed" by "checked out".  Hans Peter Albers
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Hannover-L mailing list
> Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l


Re: [HN] Re: Hannover-L digest, Vol 1 #855 - 10 msgs

Date: 2003/02/18 17:05:58
From: Fred Rump <fredrump(a)earthlink.net>

On 18 Feb 2003 at 0:51, Hans Peter Albers wrote:

> But as we are on that theme, let me ask the question: up to which time
> do you count with occurencies of taking over a name from a farm as the
> further name ? Up to now, I thought we are through with this about
> 1700 and afterwards names were principally and in normal cases
> unchangeable on that way.

Let me see if I understand you correctly. You are asking about the
time frame when people simply assumed the names of the farms they
lived on? You are also saying that you assume that this process ended
about 1700?

From what I know the process has been going on since people started
carrying a second name early in the middle ages. Initially people
only had a baptismal name but then as they settled ever closer
together additional names came to be attached to them. Among the most
common ones were the places of their origin, were they lived or what
they did. We're talking here about the old farm name having a higher
social significance then a simple old name a man brought with him.
This process did not end in the early 18th century. The only
difference is that in modern times the law came into play. As
bureaucracy developed over time the state assumed ever more power
over the individual for his own protection as they say. So today if
the name is significant enough, a court ruling can simply order it
changed as requested. In other words nothing has really changed
except the manner of how names are changed. Farms no longer represent
the significant social status as they did in the past but society has
other ways of trying to preserve a heritage of some kind.

I would also suggest that the fashion of using the 'genannt or nunc'
form of name change did not end until the mid 19th century. I can
pick up any work on village family history like an Ortsfamilienbuch
and see entries such as: Catharina Elisabeth Thobe gt. Eickholt
(Eckholt), Hoferbin in Felde *23.11.1830 +28.1.1861. This is from a
random opening (page 641) in Essener Bauernhöfe by Bröring.

The significant fact is always the Hoferbin word. Other family
members could go off and assume new names and new lives but the one
who inherited the ancient farm was just about obligated to keep that
name as it was what made the people who they were. The new husband
could assume instant status in his community by using the birth name
of his wife. It was a different time.

Fred

        4788 Corian Court
Naples, FL 34114
239-775-7838; 239-269-4781 (cell)
FredRump(a)earthlink.net





Re: [HN] Re: Hannover-L digest, Vol 1 #855 - 10 msgs

Date: 2003/02/18 17:20:58
From: ... valentine53179 <valentine53179(a)hotmail.com>

ah, I understand..
yu were referring to a church book that just happened to have the surname
you were searching who happened to be a priest.
not the surname priest.
many thanks for your help..
valentine


----- Original Message -----
From: "Hans Peter Albers" <320097756779-0001(a)t-online.de>
To: <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 2:23 AM
Subject: Re: [HN] Re: Hannover-L digest, Vol 1 #855 - 10 msgs


> ... valentine53179 schrieb:
> > hans peter -
> > are you saying you physically have a book with details - birthdates - on
the
> > priest family?
> > valentine
>
> Sorry, I had to be more correct, my conclusion were based on information
which
> were taken from the copies I made out of a  parish book about the family
of a
> priest long time ago. As I`m new on the list, my English just starts to
come back
> again. I think there is no private property in physical parish books. But
there
> are a lot of parishes, which are still in possession of their books, even
if
> those are hundreds of years in age and quite worthy. It takes a lot of
time to
> make a date for such a rendez-vous with the original entry of your
anchestor,
> but it is possible, if the pastor allows and has got the time. In most
cases
> there is someone, who is authorized to seek for you and you have pay the
used
> time. As the parish book are today mostly on film, thre are a lot of
parishes,
> which say, please look there for reason of protection of the old books.
>
> Hope this was the answer to your question.               Hans Peter Albers
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Hannover-L mailing list
> Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l
>


[HN] PLATTDEUTSCHE

Date: 2003/02/18 18:02:59
From: Maureen <mcshelly2(a)msn.com>

Was this variation confined to one part of Germany or one class of Germans?
I ask because I have heard that one branch of my mother's family called
another branch "Plattdeutsche" and they never spoke again.  But I don't know
which side made the charge, nor who were the accused!  One side was Bremen
and Hannover Evangelical Lutheran ----- and the other side was from the
Eifel in Rhineland-Pfalz and Roman Catholic.  Can anyone help solve the
puzzle:  who were the arrogant name-callers?
Maureen


Re: [HN] Re: Hannover-L digest, Vol 1 #855 - 10 msgs

Date: 2003/02/18 18:17:45
From: Hans Peter Albers <320097756779-0001(a)t-online.de>

... valentine53179 schrieb:
> ah, I understand..
> yu were referring to a church book that just happened to have the surname
> you were searching who happened to be a priest.
> not the surname priest.
> many thanks for your help..
> valentine

Everything is alright, if you got some help, even I don´t think I´m quite sure I 
know what went wrong in communication about changing of names. 

However I`m related to this priest, that´s the reason why I copied his families 
entries from the parish book by hand transcribing at once the old writing into a 
modern writing and afterwards using a typewriter to make out of my handwriting a 
typoscript. I hope there hasn´t happened any other change by doing this. It was 
in 1986. Deep and dark times considering the modern possibilities of research.

Maybe there is a difference between parish and curch books, I did not get. Please 
be patient withe me. As we all I´m still learning.           Hans Peter Albers








Re: [HN] mistake not inuerto but enuerto

Date: 2003/02/18 19:16:34
From: gutt morgan <guttmorgan(a)hotmail.com>




European Network enuerto® Stadt Ort Niedersachsen-29303 Bergen - [ Translate this page ] ... Str., Stoffregenweg Stühweg, Sülzweg, T Tadewaldweg, Teichkamp, Tilsiter Str., Trannberg Triftweg, Tulpenstr., Tummers Twiete, Twechen, Twißelhop U Unter ... www.enuerto.net/D_Deutschland/ Niedersachsen-29303-Bergen.htm - 47k - Cached - Similar pages







From: "gutt morgan" <guttmorgan(a)hotmail.com>
Reply-To: hannover-l(a)genealogy.net
To: hannover-l(a)genealogy.net
Subject: Re: [HN] Information on a schäfer - hans peter Albers
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 05:40:18 +0000



Hi, once more for today. I have had this for a little while. I do not understand why spelling it that way does not wor with Jewish gen shtetlseeker or map quest. but this is how I tried it last resort. Twißelhop. some one had suggested I try Inuerto which I never use. It is hard to explain the results. those numbers ... Dienstleistungen nach Regionen 20000-29999
Details zur P L Z:  29303
Straße:            Twißelhop
Ortsname:          Bergen
Bundesland:        Niedersachsen
Regierungsbezirk:  Reg.-Bez. Luneburg
Kries Celle oops I had said Uelzen, didn't I. Shame on me No wonder i get no where!
Gemeinde:          Bergen, Stadt
I still can't find it shown on a map. But at least it exists.

I think Cruetzen or Kreutzen of Luneburg is of Trauen. [ maybe müden or Örtze. Which is in the Luthern Bergen church area. I enlarged it once and there was something there called Creutzen.
Sorry, I really must learn how to name areas.
Thank you for the great info. now I am going to devour it and digest it.



From: 320097756779-0001(a)t-online.de (Hans Peter Albers)
Reply-To: hannover-l(a)genealogy.net
To: hannover-l(a)genealogy.net
Subject: Re: [HN] Information on  a schäfer or shepherd   Life
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 21:48:45 +0100

One word more to your "Twisselhop". I`m almost sure that that place is the
"Visselhövede" I told you. The explanation is "Twisselhop" is just  the
"plattdeutsche" word for "Visselhövede". I was puzzling, because I wasn`t aware anyware deep in the United States someone speaks this dialect. Tell me one day,
if I was right.

so much for today                          Hans Peter Albers




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Re: [HN] PLATTDEUTSCHE

Date: 2003/02/18 19:41:41
From: Helmut Hoffmeister <helmut-h(a)muenster.de>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Maureen" <mcshelly2(a)msn.com>
To: <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 5:59 PM
Subject: [HN] PLATTDEUTSCHE

I never heard of such sort of feeling. But as we say in plattdeutsch: Wat
den einen sin Uhl is den anneren sin Nachtigal (What is the owl for the
first one is the nightingale for the other).

Helmut (of muenster, westphalia)



Re: [HN] PLATTDEUTSCHE

Date: 2003/02/18 19:41:44
From: Helmut Hoffmeister <helmut-h(a)muenster.de>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Maureen" <mcshelly2(a)msn.com>
To: <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 5:59 PM
Subject: [HN] PLATTDEUTSCHE


> Was this variation confined to one part of Germany or one class of
Germans?
> I ask because I have heard that one branch of my mother's family called
> another branch "Plattdeutsche" and they never spoke again.  But I don't
know
> which side made the charge, nor who were the accused!  One side was Bremen
> and Hannover Evangelical Lutheran ----- and the other side was from the
> Eifel in Rhineland-Pfalz and Roman Catholic.  Can anyone help solve the
> puzzle:  who were the arrogant name-callers?
> Maureen
>
> _______________________________________________
> Hannover-L mailing list
> Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l
>



[HN] Cossath ?

Date: 2003/02/18 21:25:43
From: Edward Meyer <meyereh(a)sprintmail.com>

Hello List Members,

In our research we find that some persons listed their work as Cossath.  We
have been unable to determine what that means.  Thank you for a response.

Edward Meyer


Re: [HN] mistake not inuerto but enuerto

Date: 2003/02/18 21:39:15
From: Hans Peter Albers <320097756779-0001(a)t-online.de>

gutt morgan schrieb:

> European Network enuerto® Stadt Ort Niedersachsen-29303 Bergen - [ Translate 
> this page ]
> ... Str., Stoffregenweg Stühweg, Sülzweg, T Tadewaldweg, Teichkamp, Tilsiter 
>
> Str.,
> Trannberg Triftweg, Tulpenstr., Tummers Twiete, Twechen, Twißelhop U Unter 
> ...
>
> www.enuerto.net/D_Deutschland/ Niedersachsen-29303-Bergen.htm - 47k - Cached 
> - Similar pages

My congretulations. It`s always better to find a street, what no one knows, as 
if you know a village that nobody can find. More good luck.  Hans Peter Albers



Re: [HN] PLATTDEUTSCHE

Date: 2003/02/18 21:39:16
From: Hans Peter Albers <320097756779-0001(a)t-online.de>

Maureen schrieb:
> Was this variation confined to one part of Germany or one class of Germans?

There were everywhere in the German spoken areas different dialect speeches as 
the Bavarian in Bavaria, the Kölsch in Cologne and so on. As far as I know the 
"Plattdeutsche" or "Niederdeutsche" was the name for the northern dialects. 
That had nothing to do with classes, but comes therefrom that the land climbs up 
from North to South. Centre of the Plattdeutsch may fall together with the region 
of the "Niederdeutsche Tiefebene". But you can also combine the other dialects 
with the suffix "Platt" as for example the "Kölsch Platt" and it is a right 
description. Without a regional connection as "Kölsch", the spoken "Platt", what 
is ment, is probably the "Plattdeutsch" spoken in the northern parts. The upper 
classes were later on were distinguishable by speaking "Hochdeutsch" in contrary 
to the "Platt", but that was a landwide developement, not only a concern of the 
"Plattdeutsch" in the North.   
 
> I ask because I have heard that one branch of my mother's family called
> another branch "Plattdeutsche" and they never spoke again.  But I don't know
> which side made the charge, nor who were the accused!  One side was Bremen
> and Hannover Evangelical Lutheran ----- and the other side was from the
> Eifel in Rhineland-Pfalz and Roman Catholic.  Can anyone help solve the
> puzzle:  who were the arrogant name-callers? Maureen
 
By that you see, your "Plattdeutsche" were probably those of Bremen. But there 
must be not necessarily a deminuishing connotation in it. If it was that way, it 
was a special family affair, which had no corresponding feeling for example 
between the people from the northern to those of southern part et vice versa.

On a joky level today those from the south call their northern partners 
"Fischköppe", the other way round they say in that case "Knödelfresser", but 
that´s all beyond insulting intentions and just for teasing. But you know, there 
are always some ....

Best wishes                                 Hans Peter Albers



Re: [HN] Cossath ?

Date: 2003/02/18 21:43:16
From: The Prough's <dprough(a)mail.win.org>

Edward;

I find a Cossat(e) as being a cottager with little land.

Yvonne

At 02:27 PM 02/18/2003, you wrote:
Hello List Members,

In our research we find that some persons listed their work as Cossath.  We
have been unable to determine what that means.  Thank you for a response.

Edward Meyer

_______________________________________________
Hannover-L mailing list
Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l


Re: [HN] PLATTDEUTSCHE

Date: 2003/02/18 21:53:00
From: THEBOSCHBOSCHE <THEBOSCHBOSCHE(a)aol.com>

Hi Hans

I agree with the High and Low land definitions for PlattDeutche and 
Hochdeutch.

My relatives are from Anderten, Hoya District of Hannover, and they along 
with many others of German decent in Iowa used the half translated terms Low 
Deutche and High Deutsche on a regular basis.  Since I don't know for sure, 
it is just a suggestion.

Gale Bosche


Re: [HN] Cossath ?

Date: 2003/02/18 22:09:00
From: Hans Peter Albers <320097756779-0001(a)t-online.de>

Edward Meyer schrieb:
> Hello List Members,
>
> In our research we find that some persons listed their work as Cossath.  We
> have been unable to determine what that means.  Thank you for a response.
>

Don´t want o tell you something wrong.As far as I remeber there must be a defi- 
nition in every Dictionary of historical terms, maybe perhaps only in every 
German Dictionary of historical terms. By accident mine has gone, and never it 
was seen again. As far as I remember Kossäth it is a name for a special form of 
constitution of peasantry. Those who were named Kossäth were not the most wealthy 
worker on the field. And it was of a special regional spread. For all that better 
look for the dictionary, which gives a better summary.       Hans Peter Albers
 



Re: [HN] Cossath ?

Date: 2003/02/18 22:25:25
From: Juergen E.W.Meyer <JEW.Meyer(a)t-online.de>

Yvonne,
that´s correct. In some areas they are also called Koethner, Kötner, Köter, 
Kötter. 
They have more or less a "Viertelhof" (quarter of a full farm), sometimes less.
Regards,
Jürgen
The Prough's schrieb:
> Edward;
>
> I find a Cossat(e) as being a cottager with little land.
>
> Yvonne
>
> At 02:27 PM 02/18/2003, you wrote:
> >Hello List Members,
> >
> >In our research we find that some persons listed their work as Cossath.  We
> >have been unable to determine what that means.  Thank you for a response.
> >
> >Edward Meyer
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Hannover-L mailing list
> >Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> >http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l
>
> _______________________________________________
> Hannover-L mailing list
> Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l



Re: [HN] Cossath ?

Date: 2003/02/18 22:37:08
From: BrigitteJahnke <BrigitteJahnke(a)aol.com>

Hello Edward,

a  Kossath or Cossath is a person who has got a farm in emphyteusis/long 
lease. This person isn't a Kötter, he has less rights in his farm than a 
Kötter.


Brigitte Jahnke


RE: [HN] Cossath ?

Date: 2003/02/18 23:20:19
From: Follmer, Leon <follmer(a)isgs.uiuc.edu>

Brigitte,  I have run across the term Mark Kötter.  Is this a distinction of rank or what does it mean?  Leon Follmer

-----Original Message-----
From: BrigitteJahnke(a)aol.com [mailto:BrigitteJahnke(a)aol.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 3:37 PM
To: hannover-l(a)genealogy.net
Subject: Re: [HN] Cossath ?


Hello Edward,

a  Kossath or Cossath is a person who has got a farm in emphyteusis/long 
lease. This person isn't a Kötter, he has less rights in his farm than a 
Kötter.


Brigitte Jahnke


[HN] Hans Bahlow Surname Definition , Need Help

Date: 2003/02/18 23:32:01
From: Doug Plowman <dplowman(a)newnorth.net>

Hello:
    My ancestor's surname is MACKEBEN from Rehburg near Steinhüder Meer.
Could someone please translate into the English, the surname definition:

    MACKEBEN, (Hbg) ,, schlaffes, müdes Bein, "Siehe auch unter Been, Behn!
Vgl. Swakebën, Dickabën, Schefbën, Vülbën, usw. (Dazu,, mak unde mode": matt
und müde,, Alexander wart gantz mack an der sunnen"

I thank you for your help.

Doug Plowman




Re: [HN] PLATTDEUTSCHE

Date: 2003/02/18 23:58:08
From: Hans Peter Albers <320097756779-0001(a)t-online.de>

THEBOSCHBOSCHE(a)aol.com schrieb:
> Hi Hans
>
> I agree with the High and Low land definitions for PlattDeutche and 
> Hochdeutch.
>
> My relatives are from Anderten, Hoya District of Hannover, and they along 
> with many others of German decent in Iowa used the half translated terms Low 
> Deutche and High Deutsche on a regular basis.  Since I don't know for sure, 
> it is just a suggestion.   Gale Bosche

One should take it that way. The "Hochdeutsch" could be understand also by the 
speaker of "Plattdeutsch". All "Plattdeutsch"- speaker had to get accustomed to 
one dialect. That made it easier, as if all had to learn all dialects. That´s 
naturally a bit simplificating things as similiarity of meanings in different 
dialects was high. But the "Hochdeutsch" was also the speech of literature, 
science and common written documents and it was the speech of administrations.
So there were better chances to succeed in life by getting trained to the 
"Hochdeutsch". So it was merely a practical aspect, what made the change, than 
the success of a class defined opinion. If there was a disdain for the "Platt- 
deutsche" it had its reason in representating the vanishing type of managing 
life, not in the trial of urging someone to go a new wrong way. That changes 
later on, when those times had gone and symbolised no actuel danger anymore, but 
began to representate a preserving history, which once was a home.

Hope that explained a bit more                         Hans Peter Albers



[HN] Fundsache: Hase aus Hankensbüttel

Date: 2003/02/19 02:29:11
From: Hans Peter Albers <320097756779-0001(a)t-online.de>

Liebe Vahlbruchs,

vielen dank für die Postamtsbilder. Ich kann mich mit einer kleiner Hankensbüt- 
telfundsache revanchieren:

im Kirchenbuch von Neetze findet sich:

Johann Jürgen Heinrich Wilhelm Haase, Anbauer und Junggeselle aus Gr. Rain / 
Parochie Hamhkensbüttel, S. des Häuslings Jürgen Wilhelm Haase, Gr. Rain, 
oo (procl. 4 p. Epiph. et Sept.1849 in Neetze und Reinstorf) in Neetze Anna 
Dorothea Mönnerich, ... (Kb 3/1849)

nochmals vielen Dank                    Hans Peter Albers




Re: [HN] Hans Bahlow Surname Definition , Need Help

Date: 2003/02/19 03:22:44
From: Gloepertz <Gloepertz(a)aol.com>

Hello Doug
Don't compare the meaning with the name of your ancestors in this case.
HACKEBEN (Hbg) (Hamburg) meaning "slack, tired leg" Also look under Been, 
Behn, compare with Swakeben(weak leg), Dickben (heavy leg), Schefben (crooked 
leg), Vülben (full leg).
The latter expressions are in the Hamburg dialekt.
Besides, Rehburg is a much nicer community, either Bad Rehburg or Stadt 
Rehburg.
Guenter in Michigan


[HN] Re: Hannover-L digest, Vol 1 #860

Date: 2003/02/19 05:15:56
From: Carol M. Duff <duffc(a)redwing.net>

Thanks to Hans Peter Albers and Fred Rump for the interesting discussion about the change of the name Dügenfeldt to Düvel. The first change in my immediate line comes in a baptismal notation from Hankensbüttel with birth on the 6th and baptism on the 8th of Nov 1795, Seite 31 " Johann Heinrich Düvel, Hausw.  Catharina Schulzen aus Wie. had a daughter Cath. Maria Marlene (forgive my abbreviations here)...(Der Name des Täuflings und des Vaters wurde von Düngefeldt in Düvel abgeändert!)" Abgeändert is not a word in my dictionary, but I was told it meant changed. I do not know why the exclamation point follows this notation. It is noted again at the birth of the next child: 12/16 Feb. 1798/ S. 38, Johann Düvel, Hausw.  Anna Schulzen aus Wierstorf had a son Johann Heinrich,...godparents are listed followed by "(die Namen von Vater und Sohn wurden von Düngefeldt abgeändert)" In this case, the surname of the wife is not Düvel. The name is later found sometimes with two l's. The father of Johann Heinrich Düvel is never referred to other than as Johann Düngefeldt and the mother's birth name is not Düvel either. "Johan Düngefeldt und uxor Anna Elis. Heinecken Hankensbüttel 8/13 (8th birth, 13th baptism) Apr 1766, p. 92 , had a son, Johan Heinrich
How do I find the land records of the area? Thanks. Carol



[HN] Plattdeutsch

Date: 2003/02/19 05:24:36
From: Carol M. Duff <duffc(a)redwing.net>



	My east and West Prussia family spoke Plattdeutsch in addition to those from Hannover.  Does this mean that their pre-Prussian roots were in nothern Germany or was Plattdeutsch or was this common all along the northern areas where German's settled.  (I'm aware that I'm making little reference to history here as I refer to Germans and also refer to what is today's northern Germany as the northern Germans but I don't know how else to write this question.) Carol



RE: [HN] Stagge Hannover

Date: 2003/02/19 05:58:57
From: Teresa McMillin <teresamcmillin(a)attbi.com>

Hi Werner,

I noticed your reference to the emigrants book of the former Landkreis
Lingen.  Were there any STEINKAMP's or LONNEMAN's who emigrated from that
area?

Thanks for your help!

Teresa

-----Original Message-----
From: hannover-l-admin(a)genealogy.net
[mailto:hannover-l-admin(a)genealogy.net]On Behalf Of Werner Honkomp
Sent: Monday, February 17, 2003 2:24 PM
To: hannover-l(a)genealogy.net
Subject: Re: [HN] Stagge Hannover


I believe Hanover is the english spelling for Hannover, mostly means the
former old Kingdom of Hannover, now Niedersachen (Lower Saxony).

The emigrants book of the former Landkreis Lingen (county), located in the
Kingdom of Hannover shows one Stagge, maybe releated to yours:

Stagge Johann Heinrich, born 17.Jun.1845 in Wettrup (parish Lingen),
Zimmermann (Carpenter), emigrated 1868, parents: Colon(farmer) Gerhard
Wilhelm Stagge and Anna Gesina Buurke.

Werner

> I'm researching Henry Stage, born 29 Aug, 1830 in Hanover, Germany. He
> emigrated to NY in 1851 with his mother and sister. My question is this:
> are Hanover and Hannover the same place?
> Susan
> subwest(a)attbi.com

> _______________________________________________
> Hannover-L mailing list
> Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l


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Re: [HN] PLATTDEUTSCHE

Date: 2003/02/19 08:18:08
From: Maureen <mcshelly2(a)msn.com>

Thank you.  Yes, all my life I have thought it was a nasty term, because it
created such ill-feeling in the family.  This incident occurred nearly 100
years ago.
Maureen
----- Original Message -----
From: "Hans Peter Albers" <320097756779-0001(a)t-online.de>
To: <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 2:39 PM
Subject: Re: [HN] PLATTDEUTSCHE


> Maureen schrieb:
> > Was this variation confined to one part of Germany or one class of
Germans?
>
> There were everywhere in the German spoken areas different dialect
speeches as
> the Bavarian in Bavaria, the Kölsch in Cologne and so on. As far as I know
the
> "Plattdeutsche" or "Niederdeutsche" was the name for the northern
dialects.
> That had nothing to do with classes, but comes therefrom that the land
climbs up
> from North to South. Centre of the Plattdeutsch may fall together with the
region
> of the "Niederdeutsche Tiefebene". But you can also combine the other
dialects
> with the suffix "Platt" as for example the "Kölsch Platt" and it is a
right
> description. Without a regional connection as "Kölsch", the spoken
"Platt", what
> is ment, is probably the "Plattdeutsch" spoken in the northern parts. The
upper
> classes were later on were distinguishable by speaking "Hochdeutsch" in
contrary
> to the "Platt", but that was a landwide developement, not only a concern
of the
> "Plattdeutsch" in the North.
>
> > I ask because I have heard that one branch of my mother's family called
> > another branch "Plattdeutsche" and they never spoke again.  But I don't
know
> > which side made the charge, nor who were the accused!  One side was
Bremen
> > and Hannover Evangelical Lutheran ----- and the other side was from the
> > Eifel in Rhineland-Pfalz and Roman Catholic.  Can anyone help solve the
> > puzzle:  who were the arrogant name-callers? Maureen
>
> By that you see, your "Plattdeutsche" were probably those of Bremen. But
there
> must be not necessarily a deminuishing connotation in it. If it was that
way, it
> was a special family affair, which had no corresponding feeling for
example
> between the people from the northern to those of southern part et vice
versa.
>
> On a joky level today those from the south call their northern partners
> "Fischköppe", the other way round they say in that case "Knödelfresser",
but
> that´s all beyond insulting intentions and just for teasing. But you know,
there
> are always some ....
>
> Best wishes                                 Hans Peter Albers
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Hannover-L mailing list
> Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l
>


Re: [HN] PLATTDEUTSCHE

Date: 2003/02/19 09:11:39
From: Uwe ErichsSohn <Uwe.Schaerff(a)t-online.de>

If you klikk to  www.routes.de  you will find this offer (and more):

"Plattdeutsch in Amerika" 
1000 Meilen durch den Mittleren Westen 
Missouri, Kansas, Nebraska, Iowa, Illinois. 
Mit 5. Plattdeutscher Konferenz in Maning
12 Tage   29.09.-10.10.2003

Auch 2003 wird es erneut Gelegenheit geben, Orte in
Amerika zu besuchen, an denen die Nachfahren der
Auswanderer noch Plattdeutsch sprechen. Von St. Louis
geht es u.a. nach Cole Camp, Missouri und in die von
ostfriesischen Auswanderern gegründeten Landgemeinden
nach Illinois, Iowa und Nebraska. Auf dem Programm
steht auch ein Besuch in "Little Oldenburg" Nebraska.
Wie schon in den Reisen zuvor "Auf den Spuren der
Ostfriesen" erwarten Sie zahlreiche Begegnungen im
Mittleren Westen, den die Amerikaner "The Heart of it
All" nennen. Und wie schon zuvor muß man nicht
Plattdeutsch können, um Gefallen an dieser
ungewöhnlichen Reiseidee zu finden. Zu den touristischen
Höhepunkten der Reise gehört Chicago.In Zusammenarbeit 
mit Jogy Reppmann. 
Leitung: Dr. Joachim Reppmann

Better than in my poor school english this text may be translated by Fred or 
Guenther (?). 
Or click to the english pages of  www.rootes.de  with many more links.

Grüße aus Hamburg
Uwe

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
THEBOSCHBOSCHE(a)aol.com schrieb am 18.02.03:
> Hi Hans
>
> I agree with the High and Low land definitions for PlattDeutche and 
> Hochdeutch.
>
> My relatives are from Anderten, Hoya District of Hannover, and they along 
> with many others of German decent in Iowa used the half translated terms Low 
> Deutche and High Deutsche on a regular basis.  Since I don't know for sure, 
> it is just a suggestion.
>
> Gale Bosche
> _______________________________________________
> Hannover-L mailing list
> Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l

===========================================================================
Uwe Schärff     Falenbek 8     DE-22149 Hamburg-Rahlstedt
'fax (0049) 040 - 669 09 950   ePost: uwe.schaerff(a)t-online.de   
===========================================================================



Re: [HN] PLATTDEUTSCHE

Date: 2003/02/19 13:30:28
From: Cactus Flower <barbie8674(a)hotmail.com>





Dear List,

I always thought that plattdeutsche was the dialect of the low countries...even thouth Lower Saxony is located in Northern Germany... for a while there... I wondered why a state would be called Lower Saxony..when its clearly in the north...

I think because..

Its below/near sea level (I think).. thus the name Lower Saxony. And maybe the reason Saxony..is located on a map below Lower Saxony. :)

Perhaps Platte... could also mean Plateau..such as..a region at/or below sea level.

Barbie





From: Uwe.Schaerff(a)t-online.de (Uwe ErichsSohn)
Reply-To: hannover-l(a)genealogy.net
To: hannover-l(a)genealogy.net
CC: dessau(a)vik.enterprise-plc.com
Subject: Re: [HN] PLATTDEUTSCHE
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 09:11:36 +0100

If you klikk to  www.routes.de  you will find this offer (and more):

"Plattdeutsch in Amerika"
1000 Meilen durch den Mittleren Westen
Missouri, Kansas, Nebraska, Iowa, Illinois.
Mit 5. Plattdeutscher Konferenz in Maning
12 Tage   29.09.-10.10.2003

Auch 2003 wird es erneut Gelegenheit geben, Orte in
Amerika zu besuchen, an denen die Nachfahren der
Auswanderer noch Plattdeutsch sprechen. Von St. Louis
geht es u.a. nach Cole Camp, Missouri und in die von
ostfriesischen Auswanderern gegründeten Landgemeinden
nach Illinois, Iowa und Nebraska. Auf dem Programm
steht auch ein Besuch in "Little Oldenburg" Nebraska.
Wie schon in den Reisen zuvor "Auf den Spuren der
Ostfriesen" erwarten Sie zahlreiche Begegnungen im
Mittleren Westen, den die Amerikaner "The Heart of it
All" nennen. Und wie schon zuvor muß man nicht
Plattdeutsch können, um Gefallen an dieser
ungewöhnlichen Reiseidee zu finden. Zu den touristischen
Höhepunkten der Reise gehört Chicago.In Zusammenarbeit
mit Jogy Reppmann.
Leitung: Dr. Joachim Reppmann

Better than in my poor school english this text may be translated by Fred or
Guenther (?).
Or click to the english pages of  www.rootes.de  with many more links.

Grüße aus Hamburg
Uwe

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
THEBOSCHBOSCHE(a)aol.com schrieb am 18.02.03:
> Hi Hans
>
> I agree with the High and Low land definitions for PlattDeutche and
> Hochdeutch.
>
> My relatives are from Anderten, Hoya District of Hannover, and they along > with many others of German decent in Iowa used the half translated terms Low > Deutche and High Deutsche on a regular basis. Since I don't know for sure,
> it is just a suggestion.
>
> Gale Bosche
> _______________________________________________
> Hannover-L mailing list
> Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l

===========================================================================
Uwe Schärff     Falenbek 8     DE-22149 Hamburg-Rahlstedt
'fax (0049) 040 - 669 09 950   ePost: uwe.schaerff(a)t-online.de
===========================================================================


_______________________________________________
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[HN] MÖDZEL im Bereich Ortelsburg ? und Hillenburg ?

Date: 2003/02/19 14:50:27
From: karl - heinz sperling <carlossperling(a)web.de>

Hallo Listenteilnehmer/innen

Ich habe bei Bekannten im Bücherregal ein Jahresandachtbuch aus dem 19 Jahrhundert erspäht.Auf den ersten Seiten befindet sich ein kl.Stammbaum u.a.mit dem FN  MÖDZEL. Das Buch wurde vor Jahren auf einem Dachboden in Hannover gefunden.Also, bei Interesse an diesem FN bitte direkt an meine e-mail Adresse antworten,da ich auf dieser Liste z.Zt.nichts zu tun habe und mich jetzt wieder abmelde.

Gruß aus Hamburg
Karl-Heinz
______________________________________________________________________________
Finger wund tippen beim SMS Schreiben? Schluss damit! 
Web.de FreeMail - http://freemail.web.de/features/?mc=021148



[HN] PLATTDEUTCHE

Date: 2003/02/19 19:09:57
From: THEBOSCHBOSCHE <THEBOSCHBOSCHE(a)aol.com>

Hi to all,

I was reading Uwe ErichsSon's posting about the "www.routes.de" site, when I 
noted the name Maning.  Since it is a name I have seldom seen, I went to a 
web site in the town of Manning, Iowa, which was about 10 miles from where I 
grew up.  

On the site "http://pionet.net/~heritag/calendar.htm"; I found on the calendar 
of events for Mannings Octoberfest the following:  "Low German Conference 
October 3-4-5, 2003."

If I was still living in the area, I would no doubt attend, but since I now 
live about 2000 miles away in CA, I won't be able to attend. 

In this part of Iowa there are a number of towns and townships which bear the 
names which have come from Germany, i.e. Sschleswig, Holstein, and Hanover.  
The people living there often use the term "Flatlanders" when talking about 
people from the farming areas.  Does Platt mean Flat, or does the use simply 
come from their similar sound?

Gale Bosche
Formerly Manilla, Iowa


RE: [HN] Lonnemann Lengerich

Date: 2003/02/19 19:26:44
From: Werner Honkomp <Werner.Honkomp(a)t-online.de>

Hello Teresa,
there is not a Steinkamp but some Stein and two Lonnemann:

- Lonnemann Johann Rudolph, born about 1810 in Gersten, parish St.Benedictus Lengerich(Lingen county)
  no married Heuerlingssohn(son of a Heuermann), emigrated 1840

- Lonnemann Anna Maria, born 22.Sep.1844 in Bregenbeke, parish Lengerich, emigrated 1866,
  parents: Heuermann Johann Berard Lonnemann and Anna Christina Kuhl

That's all,
Werner

> Hi Werner,

> I noticed your reference to the emigrants book of the former Landkreis
> Lingen.  Were there any STEINKAMP's or LONNEMAN's who emigrated from that
> area?

> Thanks for your help!

> Teresa



Re: [HN] Re: Hannover-L digest, Vol 1 #860

Date: 2003/02/19 19:49:19
From: Hans Peter Albers <320097756779-0001(a)t-online.de>

Carol M. Duff schrieb:
>   Thanks to Hans Peter Albers and Fred Rump for the interesting 
> discussion about the change of the name Dügenfeldt to Düvel.

Don`t know what Fred Rump will say, but if there is not only the old name stroken 
out and the knew written above or aside and this handling is documented by the 
parish book writer, there must be same official reason. If you have the possibi- 
bility of getting a look into the parish book where the birth of father is docu- 
mented, perhaps the reason is given there. I think both up to now in considerati- 
on taken reason, fashionable- or taking-over-the-farm-name-reason, can be forgot- 
ten in this case. I found once a correction of a name, which was - following the 
text of the book writer - initialized by the parishbook writer of another vil- 
lage. In that case the reason was that the child had another as the presumed 
father and that came out very late. You have to consider, that people were of 
sometime strong believe, didn´t want to take a fault and sin with them into the 
grave or the testament should bring everything again to order. Those things 
occured. But it`s only a possibility, don´t take that already as a proofed thing.

To your other question:

It´s very difficult to find back the line by the kind of "Platt" one spoke or 
wrote, because accomodations to the new dialect went quick and the next gene- 
ration would speek  so as the people in the surrounding.

East- and West-Prussia are situated in the former Northern Parts of Germany. The 
Platt they spoke there was different of the other dialects, but always more 
similare to the Plattdeutsch or Niederdeutsch spoken 400 km more to West, than 
with the Kölsch Platt or the "Schwäbisch Platt" or the Bavarian". "Ostpreußisch" 
in these parts spoken sounds more as "ostprrraiizissch". But that´s all a special 
science. Good for reading so written text, for analysing an unknown text, where 
the author was from, but in my opinion of less use to find back the roots of 
someone.

hope, that will give new ideas to come further         Hans Peter




> The first change in my immediate line comes in a baptismal notation from 
> Hankensbüttel with birth on the 6th and baptism on the 8th of Nov 1795, 
> Seite 31 " Johann Heinrich Düvel, Hausw.  Catharina Schulzen aus Wie. 
> had a daughter Cath. Maria Marlene (forgive my abbreviations 
> here)...(Der Name des Täuflings und des Vaters wurde von Düngefeldt in 
> Düvel abgeändert!)" Abgeändert is not a word in my dictionary, but I was 
> told it meant changed. I do not know why the exclamation point follows 
> this notation.
> It is noted again at the birth of the next child: 12/16 Feb. 1798/ S. 
> 38, Johann Düvel, Hausw.  Anna Schulzen aus Wierstorf had a son Johann 
> Heinrich,...godparents are listed followed by "(die Namen von Vater und 
> Sohn wurden von Düngefeldt abgeändert)"
> In this case, the surname of the wife is not Düvel. The name is later 
> found sometimes with two l's.
> The father of Johann Heinrich Düvel is never referred to other than as 
> Johann Düngefeldt and the mother's birth name is not Düvel either. 
> "Johan Düngefeldt und uxor Anna Elis. Heinecken Hankensbüttel 8/13 (8th 
> birth, 13th baptism) Apr 1766, p. 92 , had a son, Johan Heinrich
> How do I find the land records of the area? Thanks. Carol
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Hannover-L mailing list
> Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l



Re: [HN] PLATTDEUTSCHE...and they never spoke again

Date: 2003/02/19 20:47:26
From: Vahlbruch <klaus-moni-vahlbruch(a)t-online.de>

Maureen schrieb:
> 
> Was this variation confined to one part of Germany or one class of Germans?
> I ask because I have heard that one branch of my mother's family called
> another branch "Plattdeutsche" and they never spoke again.  But I don't know
> which side made the charge, nor who were the accused!  One side was Bremen
> and Hannover Evangelical Lutheran ----- and the other side was from the
> Eifel in Rhineland-Pfalz and Roman Catholic.  Can anyone help solve the
> puzzle:  who were the arrogant name-callers?
> Maureen
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Hannover-L mailing list
> Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l
**********************************************************************

Hi Maureen, 
hi anybody else in the list.

I´ve read anything my colleges told you, but I think nobody answert
your Question:
"I ask because I have heard that one branch of my mother's family
called another branch "Plattdeutsche" and they never spoke again."

Your observation is quite right. Such things happen.

You should now a litle bit about me an where I come from so you´ll
understand better what I´ll tell you about the Plattdeutsche /
Hochdeutsche.

I was born on a big farm 200 Hektar, which is very large. This farm is
next to the danish border near the town of Flensburg. Look at the map.
It is the northest of north germany. A typecally
Plattdeutsch-region!!! They still speak PLATTDEUTSCH today on the
street.

On this farm there were about 20 - 30 workers. All theese workers
spoke PLATTDEUTSCH as their mother tongue. My father was the boss of
all. He not only was a farmer, he studied agriculture and ecconomies
in the university, the workers learnd their job by dooing the job.
They´ve never seen a highschol inside.

In our family everybody spoke HOCHDEUTSCH as you may heare in TV or
Radio.
In the family of all theese workers everybody spoke PLATTDEUTSCH.

To talk to each other on the  farmyard sometime the HOCHDEUTSCH
speaking had to translate into PLATTDEUTSCH otherwise nobody would
have understand you.

We where 5 childrin, I´m the yongest one, bort in 1945. There were 3
sisters and 2 broters. Two of my sisters could´t speak PLATTDEUTSCH
they allways talked HOCHDEUTSCH to anybody. So many times the workers
said: "Theese girls don´t speak like we do, they are snooty."

On the other hand, all people in the town normaly spoke HOCHDEUTSCH,
especialy the officials. So when a workerman came into town, to go for
the court the judge spoke HOCHDEUTSCH and the worker didn´t
understand. If the workerman had to speek he tried to chanche his
language from PLATTDEUTSCH into HOCHDEUTSCH. This was very very funny
to listen. The workerman was ashamed because anybody was smiling or
laughing.

So there was a big gap, difference, between those who spoke
plattdeutsch (the PLATTDEUSCHe) and those who spoke hochdeutsch (the
HOCHDEUTSCHe). It depends on income, on birth, an social rank, first
class or under class, Boss or workerman, etc. This gap you might find
even in a family.

So my family lived on the east side of the contry of Schleswig
Holstein witch is a rich farmland. Another part of my family lived on
the west side of this contry Schleswig Holstein, witch is rich too.
But right in the middle of this county the soil is bad, no wheat is
growing there, cattle dont have enough food. So the farmer in this
part of the country where poor. 

My eldest sister merried a farmer from this poor part of Schleswig
Holstein. Anybody in this region spoke PLATTDEUTSCH. So my sister
learned to speak PLATTDEUTSCH too. Within fwe years she couldn´t speak
HOCHDEUTSCH anymore. Her sentences where full mistakes (as my english
whriting here!!!). So the HOCHDEUTSCH-speaking people said: 
"Sie kann ja nicht mal richtig deutsch sprechen!" 
which means: She isn´t able to speak german correctly anymore. 
And the PLATTDEUTSCH-speaking people said: 
"She can´t speak like we do, she doesn´t belong to us!"

This feelings of different way of live, depending of social classes or
something like this, came out in the way you are talking to the
people.
There is a famous songwriter "Hannes Wader" still singing his songs in
PLATTDEUTSCH. Some phrase of a song is: 
"Min good he kann keen plattdütsch mehr un´ he versteid uns nich!"
which means:
My good, he is unable to speak our langueage (platt) so he doesn´t
understand us any longer.

So you said: 
"But I don't know which side made the charge, nor who were the
accused!"
Your are very clear in your question. 
The answer is: 
Both sides made the charge and both sides were accused!

So the reason is, that PLATTDEUTSCH is a real language like danish or
english. Phonetic is quite near HOCHdeutsch, some parts come from
other languages and some of the expressions you´ll find better in
englisch rather than in german. But the syntax is different and there
are a lot of different vocabularies.

Oh my good - writing all this stuff in english is hard work. Please
forgive all the mistakes. 
It is like: 
Oh my good he studied english at highschool an now he isn´t able to
wright some smal sentenses.

----

So it might happen that one part of your family called the other "The
PLATTDEUTSCHE" which means: They belong to the under-class. The other
part called them "The HOCHDEUTSCHE" witch means they seems to be
arrogant.

Even religion may cause thuch feelings: In our region the Roman
Catholics are the minority, they call them "arogant". The maiority are
Lutherean, nobody cares, that´s OK.  It´s nothing else than a normal
prejudice, like it is in any other part of the world. Between
HOCHDEUTSCHe and PLATTDEUTSCHe there are no problems now, but when I
was a litle child, I knew exectly the differences. But I was able to
speak PLATT- like I could speak HOCHdeutsch. 
I was a lucky child in a lucky family with a lot of freinds among the
workers on our farm.

I hope I´ve made it a little bit clear what the feelings are.

Klaus (Vahlbruch)



[HN] Orte und Namen in und um Hannover

Date: 2003/02/19 20:59:56
From: Inga Knaak <i.knaak(a)gmx.de>

Hallo Mitforscher,

ich bin neulich ein wenig auf der Suche gewesen, und bin dabei auf Namen von
Ortschaften und Familiennamen rund um Hannover gestoßen, die ich nicht
besonders gut entziffern konnte. Da ich auch leider keine detaillierte Karte
von Hannover habe, wollte ich mich gerne an euch wenden:

1.	Es geht dabei um einen Ort, den ich als Seffzig oder Seruffzig entziffert
habe.

2.	Habe ich einen Ort names Horst gefunden, ist dieser vielleicht in der
Nähe zu Kirchhorst zu finden?

3.	Könnte ein Familienname names Berstenbostel vielleicht doch eher etwas
mit dem Ort Berenborstel zu tun haben? Ich habe 	verschiedene Schreibweisen
gefunden.

4.	Sind jemandem vielleicht die Namen GIESCHE - WIRTS (?) - LISS (?)
begegnet?

5.	Hat der Familienname ZELLER - CELLER vielleicht etwas mit dem Ort Celle
zu tun? Einen Eintrag mit Zeller habe ich in 	Burgdorf gefunden.

Ich weiß, ich stelle wahrscheinlich unmögliche Fragen, aber für ein paar
Gedankensplitter bin ich immer zu haben. Vieles wird daraus resultieren,
dass ich mich leider geografisch dort nicht richtig auskenne.

Vielen Dank,
Inga Knaak





[HN] PLATTDEUTSCHE...and they never spoke again

Date: 2003/02/19 22:58:29
From: Maureen <mcshelly2(a)msn.com>

Thank you so kindly, Klaus, for a lovely explanation!
The event happened nearly 100 years ago.  My memory
of the story is about 50 years old.  So I was not sure.

The Hannover-Bremen folks (my grandfather) had a new automobile
and they were very proud to show it off.  The Eifel folks (his
sister-in-law)
were not so excited as to come running out of their house immediately
to see the new automobile.  Perhaps they were in the middle of dinner.
They thought it could wait.

Anyway, Grandfather's feelings were hurt.  The others may have thought
Grandfather was acting too childish or too boastful or too self-centered,
perhaps.

Someone called the other "Plattdeutsche" in anger, definitely meaning
it to be a very demeaning term.  And they never spoke again.

My guess is that neither family actually spoke Plattdeutsche and that the
word was simply used to mean that one or the other had the "manners of a
peasant."

Does that make any sense to you?

Who was more likely to use that term as an "epithet?"  Do you have an
opinion
on that?

Thank you again for your kind help and for so much English-writing!
Maureen


----- Original Message -----
From: "Vahlbruch" <klaus-moni-vahlbruch(a)t-online.de>
To: <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 1:47 PM
Subject: Re: [HN] PLATTDEUTSCHE...and they never spoke again


> Maureen schrieb:
> >
> > Was this variation confined to one part of Germany or one class of
Germans?
> > I ask because I have heard that one branch of my mother's family called
> > another branch "Plattdeutsche" and they never spoke again.  But I don't
know
> > which side made the charge, nor who were the accused!  One side was
Bremen
> > and Hannover Evangelical Lutheran ----- and the other side was from the
> > Eifel in Rhineland-Pfalz and Roman Catholic.  Can anyone help solve the
> > puzzle:  who were the arrogant name-callers?
> > Maureen
> **********************************************************************
>
> Hi Maureen,
> hi anybody else in the list.
>
> I´ve read anything my colleges told you, but I think nobody answert
> your Question:
> "I ask because I have heard that one branch of my mother's family
> called another branch "Plattdeutsche" and they never spoke again."
>
> Your observation is quite right. Such things happen.
>
> You should now a litle bit about me an where I come from so you´ll
> understand better what I´ll tell you about the Plattdeutsche /
> Hochdeutsche.
>
> I was born on a big farm 200 Hektar, which is very large. This farm is
> next to the danish border near the town of Flensburg. Look at the map.
> It is the northest of north germany. A typecally
> Plattdeutsch-region!!! They still speak PLATTDEUTSCH today on the
> street.
>
> On this farm there were about 20 - 30 workers. All theese workers
> spoke PLATTDEUTSCH as their mother tongue. My father was the boss of
> all. He not only was a farmer, he studied agriculture and ecconomies
> in the university, the workers learnd their job by dooing the job.
> They´ve never seen a highschol inside.
>
> In our family everybody spoke HOCHDEUTSCH as you may heare in TV or
> Radio.
> In the family of all theese workers everybody spoke PLATTDEUTSCH.
>
> To talk to each other on the  farmyard sometime the HOCHDEUTSCH
> speaking had to translate into PLATTDEUTSCH otherwise nobody would
> have understand you.
>
> We where 5 childrin, I´m the yongest one, bort in 1945. There were 3
> sisters and 2 broters. Two of my sisters could´t speak PLATTDEUTSCH
> they allways talked HOCHDEUTSCH to anybody. So many times the workers
> said: "Theese girls don´t speak like we do, they are snooty."
>
> On the other hand, all people in the town normaly spoke HOCHDEUTSCH,
> especialy the officials. So when a workerman came into town, to go for
> the court the judge spoke HOCHDEUTSCH and the worker didn´t
> understand. If the workerman had to speek he tried to chanche his
> language from PLATTDEUTSCH into HOCHDEUTSCH. This was very very funny
> to listen. The workerman was ashamed because anybody was smiling or
> laughing.
>
> So there was a big gap, difference, between those who spoke
> plattdeutsch (the PLATTDEUSCHe) and those who spoke hochdeutsch (the
> HOCHDEUTSCHe). It depends on income, on birth, an social rank, first
> class or under class, Boss or workerman, etc. This gap you might find
> even in a family.
>
> So my family lived on the east side of the contry of Schleswig
> Holstein witch is a rich farmland. Another part of my family lived on
> the west side of this contry Schleswig Holstein, witch is rich too.
> But right in the middle of this county the soil is bad, no wheat is
> growing there, cattle dont have enough food. So the farmer in this
> part of the country where poor.
>
> My eldest sister merried a farmer from this poor part of Schleswig
> Holstein. Anybody in this region spoke PLATTDEUTSCH. So my sister
> learned to speak PLATTDEUTSCH too. Within fwe years she couldn´t speak
> HOCHDEUTSCH anymore. Her sentences where full mistakes (as my english
> whriting here!!!). So the HOCHDEUTSCH-speaking people said:
> "Sie kann ja nicht mal richtig deutsch sprechen!"
> which means: She isn´t able to speak german correctly anymore.
> And the PLATTDEUTSCH-speaking people said:
> "She can´t speak like we do, she doesn´t belong to us!"
>
> This feelings of different way of live, depending of social classes or
> something like this, came out in the way you are talking to the
> people.
> There is a famous songwriter "Hannes Wader" still singing his songs in
> PLATTDEUTSCH. Some phrase of a song is:
> "Min good he kann keen plattdütsch mehr un´ he versteid uns nich!"
> which means:
> My good, he is unable to speak our langueage (platt) so he doesn´t
> understand us any longer.
>
> So you said:
> "But I don't know which side made the charge, nor who were the
> accused!"
> Your are very clear in your question.
> The answer is:
> Both sides made the charge and both sides were accused!
>
> So the reason is, that PLATTDEUTSCH is a real language like danish or
> english. Phonetic is quite near HOCHdeutsch, some parts come from
> other languages and some of the expressions you´ll find better in
> englisch rather than in german. But the syntax is different and there
> are a lot of different vocabularies.
>
> Oh my good - writing all this stuff in english is hard work. Please
> forgive all the mistakes.
> It is like:
> Oh my good he studied english at highschool an now he isn´t able to
> wright some smal sentenses.
>
> ----
>
> So it might happen that one part of your family called the other "The
> PLATTDEUTSCHE" which means: They belong to the under-class. The other
> part called them "The HOCHDEUTSCHE" witch means they seems to be
> arrogant.
>
> Even religion may cause thuch feelings: In our region the Roman
> Catholics are the minority, they call them "arogant". The maiority are
> Lutherean, nobody cares, that´s OK.  It´s nothing else than a normal
> prejudice, like it is in any other part of the world. Between
> HOCHDEUTSCHe and PLATTDEUTSCHe there are no problems now, but when I
> was a litle child, I knew exectly the differences. But I was able to
> speak PLATT- like I could speak HOCHdeutsch.
> I was a lucky child in a lucky family with a lot of freinds among the
> workers on our farm.
>
> I hope I´ve made it a little bit clear what the feelings are.
>
> Klaus (Vahlbruch)
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Hannover-L mailing list
> Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l
>


Re: [HN] PLATTDEUTSCHE...and they never spoke again

Date: 2003/02/20 01:40:04
From: Sophie Gottemoller <sgottemoller(a)dol.net>

Dear Klaus,	
As I try to read microfilms for my husband's ancestors from Northern
Germany (Neuenkirchen bei Vorden, Lage etc.), I can only say that I wish
my German was as good as your English.  You are to be given great credit
for trying to handle a second language (and English is not easy).  So
---Congratulations on your English?	Sophie Gottemoller
P.S.  The Gottemollers were Plattdeutsch.

Vahlbruch wrote:
> 
> Maureen schrieb:
> >
> > Was this variation confined to one part of Germany or one class of Germans?
> > I ask because I have heard that one branch of my mother's family called
> > another branch "Plattdeutsche" and they never spoke again.  But I don't know
> > which side made the charge, nor who were the accused!  One side was Bremen
> > and Hannover Evangelical Lutheran ----- and the other side was from the
> > Eifel in Rhineland-Pfalz and Roman Catholic.  Can anyone help solve the
> > puzzle:  who were the arrogant name-callers?
> > Maureen
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Hannover-L mailing list
> > Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> > http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l
> **********************************************************************
> 
> Hi Maureen,
> hi anybody else in the list.
> 
> I´ve read anything my colleges told you, but I think nobody answert
> your Question:
> "I ask because I have heard that one branch of my mother's family
> called another branch "Plattdeutsche" and they never spoke again."
> 
> Your observation is quite right. Such things happen.
> 
> You should now a litle bit about me an where I come from so you´ll
> understand better what I´ll tell you about the Plattdeutsche /
> Hochdeutsche.
> 
> I was born on a big farm 200 Hektar, which is very large. This farm is
> next to the danish border near the town of Flensburg. Look at the map.
> It is the northest of north germany. A typecally
> Plattdeutsch-region!!! They still speak PLATTDEUTSCH today on the
> street.
> 
> On this farm there were about 20 - 30 workers. All theese workers
> spoke PLATTDEUTSCH as their mother tongue. My father was the boss of
> all. He not only was a farmer, he studied agriculture and ecconomies
> in the university, the workers learnd their job by dooing the job.
> They´ve never seen a highschol inside.
> 
> In our family everybody spoke HOCHDEUTSCH as you may heare in TV or
> Radio.
> In the family of all theese workers everybody spoke PLATTDEUTSCH.
> 
> To talk to each other on the  farmyard sometime the HOCHDEUTSCH
> speaking had to translate into PLATTDEUTSCH otherwise nobody would
> have understand you.
> 
> We where 5 childrin, I´m the yongest one, bort in 1945. There were 3
> sisters and 2 broters. Two of my sisters could´t speak PLATTDEUTSCH
> they allways talked HOCHDEUTSCH to anybody. So many times the workers
> said: "Theese girls don´t speak like we do, they are snooty."
> 
> On the other hand, all people in the town normaly spoke HOCHDEUTSCH,
> especialy the officials. So when a workerman came into town, to go for
> the court the judge spoke HOCHDEUTSCH and the worker didn´t
> understand. If the workerman had to speek he tried to chanche his
> language from PLATTDEUTSCH into HOCHDEUTSCH. This was very very funny
> to listen. The workerman was ashamed because anybody was smiling or
> laughing.
> 
> So there was a big gap, difference, between those who spoke
> plattdeutsch (the PLATTDEUSCHe) and those who spoke hochdeutsch (the
> HOCHDEUTSCHe). It depends on income, on birth, an social rank, first
> class or under class, Boss or workerman, etc. This gap you might find
> even in a family.
> 
> So my family lived on the east side of the contry of Schleswig
> Holstein witch is a rich farmland. Another part of my family lived on
> the west side of this contry Schleswig Holstein, witch is rich too.
> But right in the middle of this county the soil is bad, no wheat is
> growing there, cattle dont have enough food. So the farmer in this
> part of the country where poor.
> 
> My eldest sister merried a farmer from this poor part of Schleswig
> Holstein. Anybody in this region spoke PLATTDEUTSCH. So my sister
> learned to speak PLATTDEUTSCH too. Within fwe years she couldn´t speak
> HOCHDEUTSCH anymore. Her sentences where full mistakes (as my english
> whriting here!!!). So the HOCHDEUTSCH-speaking people said:
> "Sie kann ja nicht mal richtig deutsch sprechen!"
> which means: She isn´t able to speak german correctly anymore.
> And the PLATTDEUTSCH-speaking people said:
> "She can´t speak like we do, she doesn´t belong to us!"
> 
> This feelings of different way of live, depending of social classes or
> something like this, came out in the way you are talking to the
> people.
> There is a famous songwriter "Hannes Wader" still singing his songs in
> PLATTDEUTSCH. Some phrase of a song is:
> "Min good he kann keen plattdütsch mehr un´ he versteid uns nich!"
> which means:
> My good, he is unable to speak our langueage (platt) so he doesn´t
> understand us any longer.
> 
> So you said:
> "But I don't know which side made the charge, nor who were the
> accused!"
> Your are very clear in your question.
> The answer is:
> Both sides made the charge and both sides were accused!
> 
> So the reason is, that PLATTDEUTSCH is a real language like danish or
> english. Phonetic is quite near HOCHdeutsch, some parts come from
> other languages and some of the expressions you´ll find better in
> englisch rather than in german. But the syntax is different and there
> are a lot of different vocabularies.
> 
> Oh my good - writing all this stuff in english is hard work. Please
> forgive all the mistakes.
> It is like:
> Oh my good he studied english at highschool an now he isn´t able to
> wright some smal sentenses.
> 
> ----
> 
> So it might happen that one part of your family called the other "The
> PLATTDEUTSCHE" which means: They belong to the under-class. The other
> part called them "The HOCHDEUTSCHE" witch means they seems to be
> arrogant.
> 
> Even religion may cause thuch feelings: In our region the Roman
> Catholics are the minority, they call them "arogant". The maiority are
> Lutherean, nobody cares, that´s OK.  It´s nothing else than a normal
> prejudice, like it is in any other part of the world. Between
> HOCHDEUTSCHe and PLATTDEUTSCHe there are no problems now, but when I
> was a litle child, I knew exectly the differences. But I was able to
> speak PLATT- like I could speak HOCHdeutsch.
> I was a lucky child in a lucky family with a lot of freinds among the
> workers on our farm.
> 
> I hope I´ve made it a little bit clear what the feelings are.
> 
> Klaus (Vahlbruch)
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Hannover-L mailing list
> Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l



Re: [HN] PLATTDEUTSCHE...and they never spoke again

Date: 2003/02/20 03:10:25
From: Susan Westhoff <subwest(a)attbi.com>

Klaus,
   Thank you for even attempting to write in English; I can do nothing in
German, unfortunately.
I understood everything you wrote.
   Your response was addressed to someone else, but I also read it. My
mother (Austrian) used to explain that there was a difference between high
and low German, but I never understood the significance. Thank you for
explaining it.
Susan

Sophie,
   I too am researching in Neuenkirchen, Prussia. But since there are 15
Neuenkirchens in Germany, I'm not quite sure I have the right one. Could
ours be the same one?
Susan

----- Original Message -----
From: "Sophie Gottemoller" <sgottemoller(a)dol.net>
To: <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 6:47 PM
Subject: Re: [HN] PLATTDEUTSCHE...and they never spoke again


> Dear Klaus,
> As I try to read microfilms for my husband's ancestors from Northern
> Germany (Neuenkirchen bei Vorden, Lage etc.), I can only say that I wish
> my German was as good as your English.  You are to be given great credit
> for trying to handle a second language (and English is not easy).  So
> ---Congratulations on your English? Sophie Gottemoller
> P.S.  The Gottemollers were Plattdeutsch.
>
> Vahlbruch wrote:
> >
> > Maureen schrieb:
> > >
> > > Was this variation confined to one part of Germany or one class of
Germans?
> > > I ask because I have heard that one branch of my mother's family
called
> > > another branch "Plattdeutsche" and they never spoke again.  But I
don't know
> > > which side made the charge, nor who were the accused!  One side was
Bremen
> > > and Hannover Evangelical Lutheran ----- and the other side was from
the
> > > Eifel in Rhineland-Pfalz and Roman Catholic.  Can anyone help solve
the
> > > puzzle:  who were the arrogant name-callers?
> > > Maureen
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Hannover-L mailing list
> > > Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> > > http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l
> > **********************************************************************
> >
> > Hi Maureen,
> > hi anybody else in the list.
> >
> > I´ve read anything my colleges told you, but I think nobody answert
> > your Question:
> > "I ask because I have heard that one branch of my mother's family
> > called another branch "Plattdeutsche" and they never spoke again."
> >
> > Your observation is quite right. Such things happen.
> >
> > You should now a litle bit about me an where I come from so you´ll
> > understand better what I´ll tell you about the Plattdeutsche /
> > Hochdeutsche.
> >
> > I was born on a big farm 200 Hektar, which is very large. This farm is
> > next to the danish border near the town of Flensburg. Look at the map.
> > It is the northest of north germany. A typecally
> > Plattdeutsch-region!!! They still speak PLATTDEUTSCH today on the
> > street.
> >
> > On this farm there were about 20 - 30 workers. All theese workers
> > spoke PLATTDEUTSCH as their mother tongue. My father was the boss of
> > all. He not only was a farmer, he studied agriculture and ecconomies
> > in the university, the workers learnd their job by dooing the job.
> > They´ve never seen a highschol inside.
> >
> > In our family everybody spoke HOCHDEUTSCH as you may heare in TV or
> > Radio.
> > In the family of all theese workers everybody spoke PLATTDEUTSCH.
> >
> > To talk to each other on the  farmyard sometime the HOCHDEUTSCH
> > speaking had to translate into PLATTDEUTSCH otherwise nobody would
> > have understand you.
> >
> > We where 5 childrin, I´m the yongest one, bort in 1945. There were 3
> > sisters and 2 broters. Two of my sisters could´t speak PLATTDEUTSCH
> > they allways talked HOCHDEUTSCH to anybody. So many times the workers
> > said: "Theese girls don´t speak like we do, they are snooty."
> >
> > On the other hand, all people in the town normaly spoke HOCHDEUTSCH,
> > especialy the officials. So when a workerman came into town, to go for
> > the court the judge spoke HOCHDEUTSCH and the worker didn´t
> > understand. If the workerman had to speek he tried to chanche his
> > language from PLATTDEUTSCH into HOCHDEUTSCH. This was very very funny
> > to listen. The workerman was ashamed because anybody was smiling or
> > laughing.
> >
> > So there was a big gap, difference, between those who spoke
> > plattdeutsch (the PLATTDEUSCHe) and those who spoke hochdeutsch (the
> > HOCHDEUTSCHe). It depends on income, on birth, an social rank, first
> > class or under class, Boss or workerman, etc. This gap you might find
> > even in a family.
> >
> > So my family lived on the east side of the contry of Schleswig
> > Holstein witch is a rich farmland. Another part of my family lived on
> > the west side of this contry Schleswig Holstein, witch is rich too.
> > But right in the middle of this county the soil is bad, no wheat is
> > growing there, cattle dont have enough food. So the farmer in this
> > part of the country where poor.
> >
> > My eldest sister merried a farmer from this poor part of Schleswig
> > Holstein. Anybody in this region spoke PLATTDEUTSCH. So my sister
> > learned to speak PLATTDEUTSCH too. Within fwe years she couldn´t speak
> > HOCHDEUTSCH anymore. Her sentences where full mistakes (as my english
> > whriting here!!!). So the HOCHDEUTSCH-speaking people said:
> > "Sie kann ja nicht mal richtig deutsch sprechen!"
> > which means: She isn´t able to speak german correctly anymore.
> > And the PLATTDEUTSCH-speaking people said:
> > "She can´t speak like we do, she doesn´t belong to us!"
> >
> > This feelings of different way of live, depending of social classes or
> > something like this, came out in the way you are talking to the
> > people.
> > There is a famous songwriter "Hannes Wader" still singing his songs in
> > PLATTDEUTSCH. Some phrase of a song is:
> > "Min good he kann keen plattdütsch mehr un´ he versteid uns nich!"
> > which means:
> > My good, he is unable to speak our langueage (platt) so he doesn´t
> > understand us any longer.
> >
> > So you said:
> > "But I don't know which side made the charge, nor who were the
> > accused!"
> > Your are very clear in your question.
> > The answer is:
> > Both sides made the charge and both sides were accused!
> >
> > So the reason is, that PLATTDEUTSCH is a real language like danish or
> > english. Phonetic is quite near HOCHdeutsch, some parts come from
> > other languages and some of the expressions you´ll find better in
> > englisch rather than in german. But the syntax is different and there
> > are a lot of different vocabularies.
> >
> > Oh my good - writing all this stuff in english is hard work. Please
> > forgive all the mistakes.
> > It is like:
> > Oh my good he studied english at highschool an now he isn´t able to
> > wright some smal sentenses.
> >
> > ----
> >
> > So it might happen that one part of your family called the other "The
> > PLATTDEUTSCHE" which means: They belong to the under-class. The other
> > part called them "The HOCHDEUTSCHE" witch means they seems to be
> > arrogant.
> >
> > Even religion may cause thuch feelings: In our region the Roman
> > Catholics are the minority, they call them "arogant". The maiority are
> > Lutherean, nobody cares, that´s OK.  It´s nothing else than a normal
> > prejudice, like it is in any other part of the world. Between
> > HOCHDEUTSCHe and PLATTDEUTSCHe there are no problems now, but when I
> > was a litle child, I knew exectly the differences. But I was able to
> > speak PLATT- like I could speak HOCHdeutsch.
> > I was a lucky child in a lucky family with a lot of freinds among the
> > workers on our farm.
> >
> > I hope I´ve made it a little bit clear what the feelings are.
> >
> > Klaus (Vahlbruch)
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Hannover-L mailing list
> > Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> > http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Hannover-L mailing list
> Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l




RE: [HN] Lonnemann Lengerich

Date: 2003/02/20 05:07:47
From: Teresa McMillin <teresamcmillin(a)attbi.com>

Thanks for your help, Werner!

Teresa

-----Original Message-----
From: hannover-l-admin(a)genealogy.net
[mailto:hannover-l-admin(a)genealogy.net]On Behalf Of Werner Honkomp
Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 11:25 AM
To: hannover-l(a)genealogy.net
Subject: RE: [HN] Lonnemann Lengerich


Hello Teresa,
there is not a Steinkamp but some Stein and two Lonnemann:

- Lonnemann Johann Rudolph, born about 1810 in Gersten, parish St.Benedictus
Lengerich(Lingen county)
  no married Heuerlingssohn(son of a Heuermann), emigrated 1840

- Lonnemann Anna Maria, born 22.Sep.1844 in Bregenbeke, parish Lengerich,
emigrated 1866,
  parents: Heuermann Johann Berard Lonnemann and Anna Christina Kuhl

That's all,
Werner

> Hi Werner,

> I noticed your reference to the emigrants book of the former Landkreis
> Lingen.  Were there any STEINKAMP's or LONNEMAN's who emigrated from that
> area?

> Thanks for your help!

> Teresa


_______________________________________________
Hannover-L mailing list
Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l



[HN] Düngerfeld vs Düvel

Date: 2003/02/20 05:38:26
From: Fred Rump <fredrump(a)earthlink.net>

On 18 Feb 2003 at 22:01, Carol M. Duff wrote:

Carol,
thanks for the explanation below. I know understand exactly what you
were talking about - not why it happened though. To dig deeper you
probably have to learn about the farms in existence back then.
believe me, they did not pick these names out of the air. You do kow
that Düngefeldt meant 'field of dung' if it's really Düngerfeld,
right?

'geändert' means changed. Abgeändert sort of could mean changed from.


> The first change in my immediate line comes in a baptismal notation
> from Hankensbüttel with birth on the 6th and baptism on the 8th of Nov
> 1795, Seite 31 " Johann Heinrich Düvel, Hausw.   Catharina Schulzen
> aus Wie. had a daughter Cath. Maria Marlene (forgive my abbreviations
> here)...(Der Name des Täuflings und des Vaters wurde von Düngefeldt in
> Düvel abgeändert!)" Abgeändert is not a word in my dictionary, but I
> was told it meant changed. I do not know why the exclamation point
> follows this notation. It is noted again at the birth of the next
> child: 12/16 Feb. 1798/ S. 38, Johann Düvel, Hausw.   Anna Schulzen
> aus Wierstorf had a son Johann Heinrich,...godparents are listed
> followed by "(die Namen von Vater und Sohn wurden von Düngefeldt
> abgeändert)" In this case, the surname of the wife is not Düvel. The
> name is later found sometimes with two l's. The father of Johann
> Heinrich Düvel is never referred to other than as Johann Düngefeldt
> and the mother's birth name is not Düvel either. "Johan Düngefeldt und
> uxor Anna Elis. Heinecken Hankensbüttel 8/13 (8th birth, 13th baptism)
> Apr 1766, p. 92 , had a son, Johan Heinrich How do I find the land
> records of the area? Thanks. Carol

Are you familiar with the book 'Wierstorfer Chronik von Dr. Dietrich
Korn'? I would write to the webmaster of the Wierstorf webpages at:
webmaster(a)wierstorf.de and ask if someone can check to see if any of
this makes sense to them. You'll have to direct yourself to the
Landkreis Gifhorn. This area used to be part of the Fürstentum
Lüneburg (before 1932)

You'll also find someone else researching Düngefeld in the Altmark
Salzwedel at: http://home.t-online.de/home/KarstenRudorf/altmark1.htm
and at http://www.muenster.de/~m-meyer/namen.html It's neighborhood
stuff.

See: 66 Johann Christoph DÜNGEFELD.
Geboren in Reddigau jetzt Neuekrug.

Maybe it can help.

Your Wierstorf today is part of the SAMTGEMEINDE HANKENSBÜTTEL

Im Zuge der Verwaltungs- und Gebietsreform wurde die Samtgemeinde
Hankensbüttel am 1. März 1974 mit den fünf Mitgliedsgemeinden
Dedelstorf (Allersehl, Dedelstorf, Langwedel, Lingwedel, 0errel,
Repke, Weddersehl), Hankensbüttel (Alt Isenhagen, Emmen,
Hankensbüttel), Obernholz (Bottendorf, Schweimke, Steimke, Wentorf,
Wettendorf, Wierstorf), Sprakensehl (Behren, Blickwedel, Bokel,
Hagen, Masel, Sprakensehl) und Steinhorst (Lüsche, Räderloh,
Steinhorst) neu gebildet.

Which in turn was made up out of the five other communities one of
which being Oberndorf which included Wierstorf.

Fred




4788 Corian Court
Naples, FL 34114
239-775-7838; 239-269-4781 (cell)
FredRump(a)earthlink.net





Re: [HN] PLATTDEUTSCHE...and they never spoke again

Date: 2003/02/20 05:38:27
From: Fred Rump <fredrump(a)earthlink.net>

On 19 Feb 2003 at 15:27, Maureen wrote:

> Someone called the other "Plattdeutsche" in anger, definitely meaning
> it to be a very demeaning term.  And they never spoke again.
> 
> My guess is that neither family actually spoke Plattdeutsche and that
> the word was simply used to mean that one or the other had the
> "manners of a peasant."
> 
> Does that make any sense to you?
> 

I doubt if anyone called someone by that name. One speaks platt but 
isn't platt. What might have gone on here is the typical high-brow vs 
country bumpkin scenario. Hill billy vs city folk etc.

There was a definate negative connection to not being able to speak 
high German (hochdeutsch). It could be used to infer a lack of 
education and lower class. Many parents even in more modern times 
would not permit their children to speak platt in the house as they 
felt this would hold them back in life. In my wife's family that was 
the case and she can't speak platt. It'd the street lingo of our 
times and we all know we're supposed to speak proper English and not 
slang.  

Fred

4788 Corian Court
Naples, FL 34114
239-775-7838; 239-269-4781 (cell) 
FredRump(a)earthlink.net





[HN] Plattdeutsch und so weiter...

Date: 2003/02/20 06:06:20
From: Robert L. Owens <mephisto(a)iland.net>

Having read all the discourse on Plattdeutsch, and especially the comments of Uwe Schaerff concerning the tour of Low German communities, I am compelled to comment.   I was pleased that Uwe mentioned a stop in Cole Camp, Missouri.    That is my home and from where I write tonight.   In this regard let me point out that we present a Low German Theater each year in early October.   It is written and performed by our Low German speakers.   Should anyone be interested I invited you to check our web site at www.colecampmissouri.com.    The story and pictures are there.

Our German community was established in the 1840s and 50s, with a second wave after the Civil War.    Virtually all came from the area of Bremervoerde, mainly south although some of families came from north of Bremvervoerde, such as mine, which came from Ottendorf (Ostendorf) and Gräpel.  They maintained the pure language of the mid 1800s while Low German in Germany evolved.   Germans visiting us find this unique as our people still speak the old"language.   This was presented in a Master's Thesis by Hella Albers, of Zeven.

Now to the Language.  The term "Low"German undoubtedly comes from the description of the geographic areas where the language was paramount; the northern coast of Germany.   It comes from the Old Saxon and evolved into the Low German of today.   It somewhat parallels Frisian as the Frisians preceded the Saxons in moving down from the Danish peninsula and into what became Holland and parts of Belgium.    Saxons stayed put where they are located today and planted their language.   When the Saxons invaded/settled England they took their language with them and hence the British are Anglo-Saxons.   And Old English is very much akin to Old Saxon, or Low German.   This can be seen in reading (or trying to read) Beowulf in the original.

There is a common thread in the Low German from Prussia to Saxony and Friesland but with regional differences which would have evolved because of the limited travel and communication centuries ago.   Still it was a viable language and the first known code of German laws, the Sachsenspiegel, is written in the Low German of the times.   And Bibles were written in Low German.   In fact, one is on display in the museum of the Wartburg in Eisenach, where Luther translated the Bible into what became High German.   And the Low German Bible predates Luther's version.   And it can be noted that the primary language of the Hanseatic League was Low German.

Luther's High German was based on what was known as Kanzlei Deutsch, or German of the Chancellery.    While various versions and dialects were spoken in different areas of Germany they found it necessary to have a common language to use in government relations and business.

The Low German extended as far south as Berlin and the Berliner dialect of today reveals its Low German heritage.

Here I talk like I think I know something about Low German and I don't even speak it.   I speak only High German but can somewhat follow Low German.

And if I may promote another bit of German culture and heritage we offer in Cole Camp we have an annual Sängerfest, or Singers Festival.    This year, in addition to our own Männerchor, Damenchor and Kinderchor, we will be joined by a group from Tulsa, OK, three groups from St. Louis and one from Kansas City.   It will be on June 21 and offers a great cultural event.   Come join us.   There is food and libation.

I hope I have not gotten out of line with promoting Cole Camp but we are doing quite well in preserving our German heritage.

Bob Owens (Please forgive my non-German name but I am still very German.)



Re: [HN] Plattdeutsch und so weiter...

Date: 2003/02/20 08:27:21
From: Uwe ErichsSohn <Uwe.Schaerff(a)t-online.de>

Hallo Bob,
herzlichen Dank, daß Du Dir die Mühe gemacht hast, 'meine Gedanken' den
Englisch-Lesern to verklaren!   Uwe 
Many tanks for explaning spec.the history of 'Platt' for English-Speakers!
Uwe   (only understanding and reading platt - no speaker)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Robert L. Owens <mephisto(a)iland.net> schrieb am 20.02.03:
> Having read all the discourse on Plattdeutsch, and especially the comments of
>  Uwe Schärff concerning the tour of Low German communities, I am compelled
>  to comment.   I was pleased that Uwe mentioned a stop in Cole Camp,
>  Missouri.    That is my home and from where I write tonight.   In this
>  regard let me point out that we present a Low German Theater each year in
>  early October.   It is written and performed by our Low German speakers.  
>  Should anyone be interested I invited you to check our web site at
>  www.colecampmissouri.com.    The story and pictures are there.
>
> Our German community was established in the 1840s and 50s, with a second wave
>  after the Civil War.    Virtually all came from the area of Bremervoerde,
>  mainly south although some of families came from north of Bremvervoerde,
>  such as mine, which came from Ottendorf (Ostendorf) and Gräpel.  They
>  maintained the pure language of the mid 1800s while Low German in Germany
>  evolved.   Germans visiting us find this unique as our people still speak
>  the old"language.   This was presented in a Master's Thesis by Hella Albers,
>  of Zeven.
>
> Now to the Language.  The term "Low"German undoubtedly comes from the
>  description of the geographic areas where the language was paramount; the
>  northern coast of Germany.   It comes from the Old Saxon and evolved into
>  the Low German of today.   It somewhat parallels Frisian as the Frisians
>  preceded the Saxons in moving down from the Danish peninsula and into what
>  became Holland and parts of Belgium.    Saxons stayed put where they are
>  located today and planted their language.   When the Saxons invaded/settled
>  England they took their language with them and hence the British are
>  Anglo-Saxons.   And Old English is very much akin to Old Saxon, or Low
>  German.   This can be seen in reading (or trying to read) Beowulf in the
>  original.
>
> There is a common thread in the Low German from Prussia to Saxony and
>  Friesland but with regional differences which would have evolved because of
>  the limited travel and communication centuries ago.   Still it was a viable
>  language and the first known code of German laws, the Sachsenspiegel, is
>  written in the Low German of the times.   And Bibles were written in Low
>  German.   In fact, one is on display in the museum of the Wartburg in
>  Eisenach, where Luther translated the Bible into what became High German.  
>  And the Low German Bible predates Luther's version.   And it can be noted
>  that the primary language of the Hanseatic League was Low German.
>
> Luther's High German was based on what was known as Kanzlei Deutsch, or
>  German of the Chancellery.    While various versions and dialects were
>  spoken in different areas of Germany they found it necessary to have a
>  common language to use in government relations and business.
>
> The Low German extended as far south as Berlin and the Berliner dialect of
>  today reveals its Low German heritage.
>
> Here I talk like I think I know something about Low German and I don't even
>  speak it.   I speak only High German but can somewhat follow Low German.
>
> And if I may promote another bit of German culture and heritage we offer in
>  Cole Camp we have an annual Sängerfest, or Singers Festival.    This year,
>  in addition to our own Männerchor, Damenchor and Kinderchor, we will be
>  joined by a group from Tulsa, OK, three groups from St. Louis and one from
>  Kansas City.   It will be on June 21 and offers a great cultural event.  
>  Come join us.   There is food and libation.
>
> I hope I have not gotten out of line with promoting Cole Camp but we are
>  doing quite well in preserving our German heritage.
>
> Bob Owens (Please forgive my non-German name but I am still very German.)

===========================================================================
Uwe Schärff     Falenbek 8     DE-22149 Hamburg-Rahlstedt
'fax (0049) 040 - 669 09 950   ePost: uwe.schaerff(a)t-online.de   
===========================================================================



[HN] Wer suchte den Ort Horst?

Date: 2003/02/20 14:15:02
From: Alexandra Blume <alexandra(a)blume-gen.de>

Hallo!

War hier neulich nicht jemand der den Ort Horst suchte? 

Horst im Amt Ricklingen ist in der Kopfsteuerbeschreibung
der Fürstentümer Calenberg-Göttigen und Grubenhagen von 1689
(Teil 4) enthalten.

Wenn ich hier nach einem Namen sehen soll, bitte noch 
einmal melden!

Viele Grüße

Alexandra Blume
http://www.blume-gen.de  Ahnenforschung in Schaumburg (-Lippe)


[HN] Plattdeutsch

Date: 2003/02/20 14:42:19
From: Rolf Schulenburg <rolf.schulenburg(a)t-online.de>

Dear List !

You will find an interesting Word-List English - Deutsch - Plattdeutsch -Anglo-Saxon under
www.plattmaster.de/plattoew.htm 

Many greetings from Hamburg
Rolf


Re: [HN] Plattdeutsch und so weiter...

Date: 2003/02/20 17:26:16
From: mstulken <mstulken(a)discover-net.net>

Thanks, Robert, for the wonderful information on Platt!!

You noted: "...And the Low German Bible predates Luther's version..."  Three Low German liturgical hymns--Low German versions of the Gloria, Sanctus, and Agnus Dei--also seem to predate Luther's hymns by a year.  These hymns by Nikolaus Decius were
    "Aleyne God yn der Höge sy eere" (sung in English translation as "All glory be to God on high")
    "Hyllich ys Godt de vader," (not in use in English translation that I know of)
    "O Lam Gades unschüldig" ("Lamb of God, pure and sinless").

My mom used to say that Grandma (parents from Ostfriesen) and Grandpa (parents from Deutsch Krone, West Prussia)  both spoke German, but had different words for some things.  Within the past few years, I've become aware of the fact that the German they both spoke was surely Low German.  And that when Grandma switched to German when talking to her sister on the phone and didn't want us kids to understand--I was actually listening to Low German.  Wish I'd had a tape recorder!

I can't seem to find it right now, but I recently received a copy of a newsletter published by a Pommeranian group here in Wisconsin.  They described a visit from a young woman who is studying Platt and came to Wisconsin for several weeks to record the language as spoken here.  I don't know if that's the Hella Albers described in you message or not.  Perhaps if there's someone from the Pommeranian group is reading this he/she can help me out.

Marilyn in Wisconsin




Re: [HN] Lonnemann Lengerich

Date: 2003/02/20 17:43:26
From: Patricia Knight <pknight1(a)fidnet.com>

This is a very interesting discussion...low and high German. My mother often
spoke of her family's dislike for one side of the family and said that they
spoke low German and the other side high German. I don't think she knew what
was meant but, took it to mean ...demeaning in nature.

My real question is this...my gggrandmother from Hanover...in her obit , it
stated that she was from Leadwich Dres, Hanover ...she died in Waterloo, IL.
This might be the area (Lengerich) that they wrote...I am just grasping at
straws since I have been told there is no such place.

Would this be the area of Hanover....crossing my fingers....that she could
have been from Lengerich ?????

The surnames involved were Griemel from Grossen Linden , Hessen, Germany and
Dedeke , Schmidt , Spellmeyer\Spellmeier from Hanover.

The church that they belonged to all spoke German in the 1850\1900 time
frame in Waterloo, IL.  They didn't use English in their services until
about 1910. She was Margaret Schroeder and her husband was Fredrich Dedeke
both born in Hanover.

Just hoping that I can locate the area of their birth.

Thanks

Pat
----- Original Message -----
From: "Teresa McMillin" <teresamcmillin(a)attbi.com>
To: <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 10:04 PM
Subject: RE: [HN] Lonnemann Lengerich


> Thanks for your help, Werner!
>
> Teresa
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: hannover-l-admin(a)genealogy.net
> [mailto:hannover-l-admin(a)genealogy.net]On Behalf Of Werner Honkomp
> Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 11:25 AM
> To: hannover-l(a)genealogy.net
> Subject: RE: [HN] Lonnemann Lengerich
>
>
> Hello Teresa,
> there is not a Steinkamp but some Stein and two Lonnemann:
>
> - Lonnemann Johann Rudolph, born about 1810 in Gersten, parish
St.Benedictus
> Lengerich(Lingen county)
>   no married Heuerlingssohn(son of a Heuermann), emigrated 1840
>
> - Lonnemann Anna Maria, born 22.Sep.1844 in Bregenbeke, parish Lengerich,
> emigrated 1866,
>   parents: Heuermann Johann Berard Lonnemann and Anna Christina Kuhl
>
> That's all,
> Werner
>
> > Hi Werner,
>
> > I noticed your reference to the emigrants book of the former Landkreis
> > Lingen.  Were there any STEINKAMP's or LONNEMAN's who emigrated from
that
> > area?
>
> > Thanks for your help!
>
> > Teresa
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Hannover-L mailing list
> Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Hannover-L mailing list
> Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l
>



Re: [HN] Lonnemann Lengerich

Date: 2003/02/20 18:12:43
From: Barbara Stewart <raymondg(a)attbi.com>

Hello Patricia,
      Is there any chance that the  FRIEDERICH CHRISTIAN DEDEKE  born in
1829 in Frille, Westfalen, Prussia could be your ancestor?  It is on the LDS
website.  Do you have birth and marriage dates for your people?
Barbara




on 2/20/03 9:24 AM, Patricia Knight at pknight1(a)fidnet.com wrote:

> This is a very interesting discussion...low and high German. My mother often
> spoke of her family's dislike for one side of the family and said that they
> spoke low German and the other side high German. I don't think she knew what
> was meant but, took it to mean ...demeaning in nature.
> 
> My real question is this...my gggrandmother from Hanover...in her obit , it
> stated that she was from Leadwich Dres, Hanover ...she died in Waterloo, IL.
> This might be the area (Lengerich) that they wrote...I am just grasping at
> straws since I have been told there is no such place.
> 
> Would this be the area of Hanover....crossing my fingers....that she could
> have been from Lengerich ?????
> 
> The surnames involved were Griemel from Grossen Linden , Hessen, Germany and
> Dedeke , Schmidt , Spellmeyer\Spellmeier from Hanover.
> 
> The church that they belonged to all spoke German in the 1850\1900 time
> frame in Waterloo, IL.  They didn't use English in their services until
> about 1910. She was Margaret Schroeder and her husband was Fredrich Dedeke
> both born in Hanover.
> 
> Just hoping that I can locate the area of their birth.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Pat
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Teresa McMillin" <teresamcmillin(a)attbi.com>
> To: <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 10:04 PM
> Subject: RE: [HN] Lonnemann Lengerich
> 
> 
>> Thanks for your help, Werner!
>> 
>> Teresa
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: hannover-l-admin(a)genealogy.net
>> [mailto:hannover-l-admin(a)genealogy.net]On Behalf Of Werner Honkomp
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 11:25 AM
>> To: hannover-l(a)genealogy.net
>> Subject: RE: [HN] Lonnemann Lengerich
>> 
>> 
>> Hello Teresa,
>> there is not a Steinkamp but some Stein and two Lonnemann:
>> 
>> - Lonnemann Johann Rudolph, born about 1810 in Gersten, parish
> St.Benedictus
>> Lengerich(Lingen county)
>> no married Heuerlingssohn(son of a Heuermann), emigrated 1840
>> 
>> - Lonnemann Anna Maria, born 22.Sep.1844 in Bregenbeke, parish Lengerich,
>> emigrated 1866,
>> parents: Heuermann Johann Berard Lonnemann and Anna Christina Kuhl
>> 
>> That's all,
>> Werner
>> 
>>> Hi Werner,
>> 
>>> I noticed your reference to the emigrants book of the former Landkreis
>>> Lingen.  Were there any STEINKAMP's or LONNEMAN's who emigrated from
> that
>>> area?
>> 
>>> Thanks for your help!
>> 
>>> Teresa
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Hannover-L mailing list
>> Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
>> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Hannover-L mailing list
>> Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
>> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l
>> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Hannover-L mailing list
> Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l



Re: [HN] PLATTDEUTSCHE...and they never spoke again

Date: 2003/02/20 18:21:38
From: Erika Giftge <Giftge(a)t-online.de>

Hi everyone interested in Plattdeutsch,

I only now found the time to read all your questions and explanations.
Perhaps I can add  another little bit to the puzzle.

I grew up on a small farm about 20 miles from Osnabrück, an area today being
part of Lower saxony, but only a few miles away from westphalia.
Grand-parents and parents (though my mom is from a bigger town and only was
confronted with low German after their marriage after WWII) spoke both High
German and platt, but as was pointed out before, didn't want us children to
really  speak it, because they were told that we'd do better in school not
being mixed up between two languages. I wish they had encouraged me more to
speak it, after having been able to learn English I am sure this wouldn't
have bothered me at all. Anyways, I can only speak a few words, but am
pretty fluent in understanding it.
But what I wanted to point out, that there are big differences between the
platt that is being spoken in Schleswig Holstein, Frisia, Hanburg, Bremen or
even Pommern. And I even know that there are differences from one little
village to another, although being only a mile apart. Years ago I saw a show
on TV where someone was able to tell where people came from just by hearing
such differences, and to me it was all platt. Here is an example:
The word ladder (Leiter  in high German) was called LEDDER with my parents
and the neighbouring village called it BIAERM, ink was either called ENK OR
BLACK or even only DINTE (Tinte in High German), a girl was called  WICHT or
LÜT etc. Also the prnounciation has loads of differences between villages
and areas even if they do use the same words.In addition there are no rules
for writing platt, it is just written as spoken.

I found an article in German about the Platt in the area specified by DR
Gisbert Keseling . If anyone is interested I could send a copy (5-6 pages,
but too much to copy and publish on the list)
In this case and if anyone needs a German translation of this mail, please
write to me privately and don't answer to the list.

Erika


----- Original Message -----
From: "Vahlbruch" <klaus-moni-vahlbruch(a)t-online.de>
To: <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 8:47 PM
Subject: Re: [HN] PLATTDEUTSCHE...and they never spoke again


> Maureen schrieb:
> >
> > Was this variation confined to one part of Germany or one class of
Germans?
> > I ask because I have heard that one branch of my mother's family called
> > another branch "Plattdeutsche" and they never spoke again.  But I don't
know
> > which side made the charge, nor who were the accused!  One side was
Bremen
> > and Hannover Evangelical Lutheran ----- and the other side was from the
> > Eifel in Rhineland-Pfalz and Roman Catholic.  Can anyone help solve the
> > puzzle:  who were the arrogant name-callers?
> > Maureen
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Hannover-L mailing list
> > Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> > http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l
> **********************************************************************
>
> Hi Maureen,
> hi anybody else in the list.
>
> I´ve read anything my colleges told you, but I think nobody answert
> your Question:
> "I ask because I have heard that one branch of my mother's family
> called another branch "Plattdeutsche" and they never spoke again."
>
> Your observation is quite right. Such things happen.
>
> You should now a litle bit about me an where I come from so you´ll
> understand better what I´ll tell you about the Plattdeutsche /
> Hochdeutsche.
>
> I was born on a big farm 200 Hektar, which is very large. This farm is
> next to the danish border near the town of Flensburg. Look at the map.
> It is the northest of north germany. A typecally
> Plattdeutsch-region!!! They still speak PLATTDEUTSCH today on the
> street.
>
> On this farm there were about 20 - 30 workers. All theese workers
> spoke PLATTDEUTSCH as their mother tongue. My father was the boss of
> all. He not only was a farmer, he studied agriculture and ecconomies
> in the university, the workers learnd their job by dooing the job.
> They´ve never seen a highschol inside.
>
> In our family everybody spoke HOCHDEUTSCH as you may heare in TV or
> Radio.
> In the family of all theese workers everybody spoke PLATTDEUTSCH.
>
> To talk to each other on the  farmyard sometime the HOCHDEUTSCH
> speaking had to translate into PLATTDEUTSCH otherwise nobody would
> have understand you.
>
> We where 5 childrin, I´m the yongest one, bort in 1945. There were 3
> sisters and 2 broters. Two of my sisters could´t speak PLATTDEUTSCH
> they allways talked HOCHDEUTSCH to anybody. So many times the workers
> said: "Theese girls don´t speak like we do, they are snooty."
>
> On the other hand, all people in the town normaly spoke HOCHDEUTSCH,
> especialy the officials. So when a workerman came into town, to go for
> the court the judge spoke HOCHDEUTSCH and the worker didn´t
> understand. If the workerman had to speek he tried to chanche his
> language from PLATTDEUTSCH into HOCHDEUTSCH. This was very very funny
> to listen. The workerman was ashamed because anybody was smiling or
> laughing.
>
> So there was a big gap, difference, between those who spoke
> plattdeutsch (the PLATTDEUSCHe) and those who spoke hochdeutsch (the
> HOCHDEUTSCHe). It depends on income, on birth, an social rank, first
> class or under class, Boss or workerman, etc. This gap you might find
> even in a family.
>
> So my family lived on the east side of the contry of Schleswig
> Holstein witch is a rich farmland. Another part of my family lived on
> the west side of this contry Schleswig Holstein, witch is rich too.
> But right in the middle of this county the soil is bad, no wheat is
> growing there, cattle dont have enough food. So the farmer in this
> part of the country where poor.
>
> My eldest sister merried a farmer from this poor part of Schleswig
> Holstein. Anybody in this region spoke PLATTDEUTSCH. So my sister
> learned to speak PLATTDEUTSCH too. Within fwe years she couldn´t speak
> HOCHDEUTSCH anymore. Her sentences where full mistakes (as my english
> whriting here!!!). So the HOCHDEUTSCH-speaking people said:
> "Sie kann ja nicht mal richtig deutsch sprechen!"
> which means: She isn´t able to speak german correctly anymore.
> And the PLATTDEUTSCH-speaking people said:
> "She can´t speak like we do, she doesn´t belong to us!"
>
> This feelings of different way of live, depending of social classes or
> something like this, came out in the way you are talking to the
> people.
> There is a famous songwriter "Hannes Wader" still singing his songs in
> PLATTDEUTSCH. Some phrase of a song is:
> "Min good he kann keen plattdütsch mehr un´ he versteid uns nich!"
> which means:
> My good, he is unable to speak our langueage (platt) so he doesn´t
> understand us any longer.
>
> So you said:
> "But I don't know which side made the charge, nor who were the
> accused!"
> Your are very clear in your question.
> The answer is:
> Both sides made the charge and both sides were accused!
>
> So the reason is, that PLATTDEUTSCH is a real language like danish or
> english. Phonetic is quite near HOCHdeutsch, some parts come from
> other languages and some of the expressions you´ll find better in
> englisch rather than in german. But the syntax is different and there
> are a lot of different vocabularies.
>
> Oh my good - writing all this stuff in english is hard work. Please
> forgive all the mistakes.
> It is like:
> Oh my good he studied english at highschool an now he isn´t able to
> wright some smal sentenses.
>
> ----
>
> So it might happen that one part of your family called the other "The
> PLATTDEUTSCHE" which means: They belong to the under-class. The other
> part called them "The HOCHDEUTSCHE" witch means they seems to be
> arrogant.
>
> Even religion may cause thuch feelings: In our region the Roman
> Catholics are the minority, they call them "arogant". The maiority are
> Lutherean, nobody cares, that´s OK.  It´s nothing else than a normal
> prejudice, like it is in any other part of the world. Between
> HOCHDEUTSCHe and PLATTDEUTSCHe there are no problems now, but when I
> was a litle child, I knew exectly the differences. But I was able to
> speak PLATT- like I could speak HOCHdeutsch.
> I was a lucky child in a lucky family with a lot of freinds among the
> workers on our farm.
>
> I hope I´ve made it a little bit clear what the feelings are.
>
> Klaus (Vahlbruch)
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Hannover-L mailing list
> Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l



[HN] PLATTDEUTSCHE

Date: 2003/02/20 18:54:39
From: Onegeneration <Onegeneration(a)aol.com>


My ggrandparents all settled in a town called Berlin in Nebraska, when the 
war came along they changed the name to Otoe, for it is in Otoe County.  This 
was back in the 1800's.  It was a German settlement.

My grandmother spoke high German, and I know that when the subject came up, 
she always gave me the impression that to speak low German was not good.  I 
was to young to know or for that matter to care what it meant.

The names were Fastenau, Blume, Raven, Charbonier.  I have just started 
searching this family so do not know much about them.

I have never searched anything in German, this is my first list, so I will 
lurk awhile and learn.  I enjoy "listening" to your conversations.

diane


Re: [HN] PLATTDEUTSCHE...and they never spoke again

Date: 2003/02/20 19:00:48
From: Carolyn Bening <cbening(a)earthlink.net>

To Erika and list members,
This conversation and history lesson about Plattdeutsch is so interesting to
many of us who grew up with it spoken in our homes.
My Oberösterreich families still speak a form of Platt of the Austrian
dialect in their rural villages in Southeast Missouri that has not changed
since immigration in 1853.  And my husband's family from the Osnabrück
region (Venne and Engter villages) that settled in Washington County,
Illinois (Venedy and Okawville) still speak a Platt dialect that delighted
our visitors from Venne two years ago.  They could completely understand
each other even after 150 years!

That is what amazes me about these dialects.  In these somewhat isolated
villages in America, the immigrant families have been able to (often
stubbornly) retain their language...and thereby their culture and traditions
in ways that continually surprise, and delight, me.

My Best Wishes,
Carolyn Bening in Missouri




----- Original Message -----
From: "Erika Giftge" <Giftge(a)t-online.de>
To: <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 11:23 AM
Subject: Re: [HN] PLATTDEUTSCHE...and they never spoke again


> Hi everyone interested in Plattdeutsch,
>
> I only now found the time to read all your questions and explanations.
> Perhaps I can add  another little bit to the puzzle.
>
> I grew up on a small farm about 20 miles from Osnabrück, an area today
being
> part of Lower saxony, but only a few miles away from westphalia.
> Grand-parents and parents (though my mom is from a bigger town and only
was
> confronted with low German after their marriage after WWII) spoke both
High
> German and platt, but as was pointed out before, didn't want us children
to
> really  speak it, because they were told that we'd do better in school not
> being mixed up between two languages. I wish they had encouraged me more
to
> speak it, after having been able to learn English I am sure this wouldn't
> have bothered me at all. Anyways, I can only speak a few words, but am
> pretty fluent in understanding it.
> But what I wanted to point out, that there are big differences between the
> platt that is being spoken in Schleswig Holstein, Frisia, Hanburg, Bremen
or
> even Pommern. And I even know that there are differences from one little
> village to another, although being only a mile apart. Years ago I saw a
show
> on TV where someone was able to tell where people came from just by
hearing
> such differences, and to me it was all platt. Here is an example:
> The word ladder (Leiter  in high German) was called LEDDER with my parents
> and the neighbouring village called it BIAERM, ink was either called ENK
OR
> BLACK or even only DINTE (Tinte in High German), a girl was called  WICHT
or
> LÜT etc. Also the prnounciation has loads of differences between villages
> and areas even if they do use the same words.In addition there are no
rules
> for writing platt, it is just written as spoken.
>
> I found an article in German about the Platt in the area specified by DR
> Gisbert Keseling . If anyone is interested I could send a copy (5-6 pages,
> but too much to copy and publish on the list)
> In this case and if anyone needs a German translation of this mail, please
> write to me privately and don't answer to the list.
>
> Erika
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Vahlbruch" <klaus-moni-vahlbruch(a)t-online.de>
> To: <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 8:47 PM
> Subject: Re: [HN] PLATTDEUTSCHE...and they never spoke again
>
>
> > Maureen schrieb:
> > >
> > > Was this variation confined to one part of Germany or one class of
> Germans?
> > > I ask because I have heard that one branch of my mother's family
called
> > > another branch "Plattdeutsche" and they never spoke again.  But I
don't
> know
> > > which side made the charge, nor who were the accused!  One side was
> Bremen
> > > and Hannover Evangelical Lutheran ----- and the other side was from
the
> > > Eifel in Rhineland-Pfalz and Roman Catholic.  Can anyone help solve
the
> > > puzzle:  who were the arrogant name-callers?
> > > Maureen
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Hannover-L mailing list
> > > Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> > > http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l
> > **********************************************************************
> >
> > Hi Maureen,
> > hi anybody else in the list.
> >
> > I´ve read anything my colleges told you, but I think nobody answert
> > your Question:
> > "I ask because I have heard that one branch of my mother's family
> > called another branch "Plattdeutsche" and they never spoke again."
> >
> > Your observation is quite right. Such things happen.
> >
> > You should now a litle bit about me an where I come from so you´ll
> > understand better what I´ll tell you about the Plattdeutsche /
> > Hochdeutsche.
> >
> > I was born on a big farm 200 Hektar, which is very large. This farm is
> > next to the danish border near the town of Flensburg. Look at the map.
> > It is the northest of north germany. A typecally
> > Plattdeutsch-region!!! They still speak PLATTDEUTSCH today on the
> > street.
> >
> > On this farm there were about 20 - 30 workers. All theese workers
> > spoke PLATTDEUTSCH as their mother tongue. My father was the boss of
> > all. He not only was a farmer, he studied agriculture and ecconomies
> > in the university, the workers learnd their job by dooing the job.
> > They´ve never seen a highschol inside.
> >
> > In our family everybody spoke HOCHDEUTSCH as you may heare in TV or
> > Radio.
> > In the family of all theese workers everybody spoke PLATTDEUTSCH.
> >
> > To talk to each other on the  farmyard sometime the HOCHDEUTSCH
> > speaking had to translate into PLATTDEUTSCH otherwise nobody would
> > have understand you.
> >
> > We where 5 childrin, I´m the yongest one, bort in 1945. There were 3
> > sisters and 2 broters. Two of my sisters could´t speak PLATTDEUTSCH
> > they allways talked HOCHDEUTSCH to anybody. So many times the workers
> > said: "Theese girls don´t speak like we do, they are snooty."
> >
> > On the other hand, all people in the town normaly spoke HOCHDEUTSCH,
> > especialy the officials. So when a workerman came into town, to go for
> > the court the judge spoke HOCHDEUTSCH and the worker didn´t
> > understand. If the workerman had to speek he tried to chanche his
> > language from PLATTDEUTSCH into HOCHDEUTSCH. This was very very funny
> > to listen. The workerman was ashamed because anybody was smiling or
> > laughing.
> >
> > So there was a big gap, difference, between those who spoke
> > plattdeutsch (the PLATTDEUSCHe) and those who spoke hochdeutsch (the
> > HOCHDEUTSCHe). It depends on income, on birth, an social rank, first
> > class or under class, Boss or workerman, etc. This gap you might find
> > even in a family.
> >
> > So my family lived on the east side of the contry of Schleswig
> > Holstein witch is a rich farmland. Another part of my family lived on
> > the west side of this contry Schleswig Holstein, witch is rich too.
> > But right in the middle of this county the soil is bad, no wheat is
> > growing there, cattle dont have enough food. So the farmer in this
> > part of the country where poor.
> >
> > My eldest sister merried a farmer from this poor part of Schleswig
> > Holstein. Anybody in this region spoke PLATTDEUTSCH. So my sister
> > learned to speak PLATTDEUTSCH too. Within fwe years she couldn´t speak
> > HOCHDEUTSCH anymore. Her sentences where full mistakes (as my english
> > whriting here!!!). So the HOCHDEUTSCH-speaking people said:
> > "Sie kann ja nicht mal richtig deutsch sprechen!"
> > which means: She isn´t able to speak german correctly anymore.
> > And the PLATTDEUTSCH-speaking people said:
> > "She can´t speak like we do, she doesn´t belong to us!"
> >
> > This feelings of different way of live, depending of social classes or
> > something like this, came out in the way you are talking to the
> > people.
> > There is a famous songwriter "Hannes Wader" still singing his songs in
> > PLATTDEUTSCH. Some phrase of a song is:
> > "Min good he kann keen plattdütsch mehr un´ he versteid uns nich!"
> > which means:
> > My good, he is unable to speak our langueage (platt) so he doesn´t
> > understand us any longer.
> >
> > So you said:
> > "But I don't know which side made the charge, nor who were the
> > accused!"
> > Your are very clear in your question.
> > The answer is:
> > Both sides made the charge and both sides were accused!
> >
> > So the reason is, that PLATTDEUTSCH is a real language like danish or
> > english. Phonetic is quite near HOCHdeutsch, some parts come from
> > other languages and some of the expressions you´ll find better in
> > englisch rather than in german. But the syntax is different and there
> > are a lot of different vocabularies.
> >
> > Oh my good - writing all this stuff in english is hard work. Please
> > forgive all the mistakes.
> > It is like:
> > Oh my good he studied english at highschool an now he isn´t able to
> > wright some smal sentenses.
> >
> > ----
> >
> > So it might happen that one part of your family called the other "The
> > PLATTDEUTSCHE" which means: They belong to the under-class. The other
> > part called them "The HOCHDEUTSCHE" witch means they seems to be
> > arrogant.
> >
> > Even religion may cause thuch feelings: In our region the Roman
> > Catholics are the minority, they call them "arogant". The maiority are
> > Lutherean, nobody cares, that´s OK.  It´s nothing else than a normal
> > prejudice, like it is in any other part of the world. Between
> > HOCHDEUTSCHe and PLATTDEUTSCHe there are no problems now, but when I
> > was a litle child, I knew exectly the differences. But I was able to
> > speak PLATT- like I could speak HOCHdeutsch.
> > I was a lucky child in a lucky family with a lot of freinds among the
> > workers on our farm.
> >
> > I hope I´ve made it a little bit clear what the feelings are.
> >
> > Klaus (Vahlbruch)
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Hannover-L mailing list
> > Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> > http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Hannover-L mailing list
> Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l
>




[HN] Re: [NLF] Garnison Kirchenbücher Hannover Bd. 1 - 4

Date: 2003/02/20 19:03:13
From: Hans Peter Albers <320097756779-0001(a)t-online.de>

Lieber H. Kemm,

im Prinzip ergänzen wir uns hervorragend, denn ich habe nur den 1. Band, A - F.
Dort finden sich zwar Benutzerhinweise, die sind aber recht dürftig und nicht 
sehr erläuterungskräftig. War so frei mir deine E-mail-Nr. in den Band zu 
notieren, um im dringenden Bedarfsfall nach Einträgen F-Z zu fragen, schlage vor 
umgekehrt für den Fall A-F gleiches zu tun. Was wird gebraucht oder welche 
Abkrzg. braucht Erläuterung, erläutert werden gerademal um die 21 Kürzel., dabei 
solche wie "oo" und "o-o", hinzu kommt ein wenig allgemeiner Text, der besagt das 
nichts sicher ist, "B" kann auch "P" sein, etc. Also insgesamt 3 Seiten. Wenn das 
trotzdem wichtig ist, brauch ich die Anschrift und etwas Zeit.

Gruß          Hans Peter Albers, Heinrichstr. 21, 29553 Bienenbüttel



Re: [HN] PLATTDEUTSCHE...and they never spoke again

Date: 2003/02/20 19:25:10
From: THEBOSCHBOSCHE <THEBOSCHBOSCHE(a)aol.com>

Hi Erika

Just a comment on understanding different dialects.  My father had an easier 
time talking to his Danish brother-in-law than he did talking with one of his 
German brother-in-laws.   My fathers family is from the Anderten-Hoya part of 
the Kingdom of Hanover.

Gale Bosche
Ca.


Re: [HN] Lengerich - Hannover

Date: 2003/02/20 20:00:39
From: Werner Honkomp <Werner.Honkomp(a)t-online.de>

> My real question is this...my gggrandmother from Hanover...in her obit ,
> it
> stated that she was from Leadwich Dres, Hanover ...she died in Waterloo,
> IL.
> This might be the area (Lengerich) that they wrote...I am just grasping at
> straws since I have been told there is no such place.

> Would this be the area of Hanover....crossing my fingers....that she could
> have been from Lengerich ?????

What is the first and surname of your gggrandmother?

I have some Drees in parish Lengerich.

Werner




Re: [HN] PLATTDEUTSCHE...and they never spoke again

Date: 2003/02/20 20:05:14
From: Sophie Gottemoller <sgottemoller(a)dol.net>

Susan,
My husband's ancestors came from Neuenkirchen bei Vorden, Lage, Amt
Malgarten, Rieste, Bransche or in this general area.  They came to the
US in 1836 and moved to Ohio, where many descendents still live today. 
One of our problems is that the first Gortemoller we know of was born
Becker.  The family was Roman Catholic, at least they were so in the
records I was sent by a Kind Gentleman.  His wife was a Tangeman and her
family lived in Neuenkirchn itself and the microfilmed records for that
family are great.  If you need the LDS numbers for those, I will gladly
send them to you.  What is the surname you are searching?
Sophie

Susan Westhoff wrote:
> 
> Klaus,
>    Thank you for even attempting to write in English; I can do nothing in
> German, unfortunately.
> I understood everything you wrote.
>    Your response was addressed to someone else, but I also read it. My
> mother (Austrian) used to explain that there was a difference between high
> and low German, but I never understood the significance. Thank you for
> explaining it.
> Susan
> 
> Sophie,
>    I too am researching in Neuenkirchen, Prussia. But since there are 15
> Neuenkirchens in Germany, I'm not quite sure I have the right one. Could
> ours be the same one?
> Susan
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Sophie Gottemoller" <sgottemoller(a)dol.net>
> To: <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 6:47 PM
> Subject: Re: [HN] PLATTDEUTSCHE...and they never spoke again
> 
> > Dear Klaus,
> > As I try to read microfilms for my husband's ancestors from Northern
> > Germany (Neuenkirchen bei Vorden, Lage etc.), I can only say that I wish
> > my German was as good as your English.  You are to be given great credit
> > for trying to handle a second language (and English is not easy).  So
> > ---Congratulations on your English? Sophie Gottemoller
> > P.S.  The Gottemollers were Plattdeutsch.
> >
> > Vahlbruch wrote:
> > >
> > > Maureen schrieb:
> > > >
> > > > Was this variation confined to one part of Germany or one class of
> Germans?
> > > > I ask because I have heard that one branch of my mother's family
> called
> > > > another branch "Plattdeutsche" and they never spoke again.  But I
> don't know
> > > > which side made the charge, nor who were the accused!  One side was
> Bremen
> > > > and Hannover Evangelical Lutheran ----- and the other side was from
> the
> > > > Eifel in Rhineland-Pfalz and Roman Catholic.  Can anyone help solve
> the
> > > > puzzle:  who were the arrogant name-callers?
> > > > Maureen
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Hannover-L mailing list
> > > > Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> > > > http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l
> > > **********************************************************************
> > >
> > > Hi Maureen,
> > > hi anybody else in the list.
> > >
> > > I´ve read anything my colleges told you, but I think nobody answert
> > > your Question:
> > > "I ask because I have heard that one branch of my mother's family
> > > called another branch "Plattdeutsche" and they never spoke again."
> > >
> > > Your observation is quite right. Such things happen.
> > >
> > > You should now a litle bit about me an where I come from so you´ll
> > > understand better what I´ll tell you about the Plattdeutsche /
> > > Hochdeutsche.
> > >
> > > I was born on a big farm 200 Hektar, which is very large. This farm is
> > > next to the danish border near the town of Flensburg. Look at the map.
> > > It is the northest of north germany. A typecally
> > > Plattdeutsch-region!!! They still speak PLATTDEUTSCH today on the
> > > street.
> > >
> > > On this farm there were about 20 - 30 workers. All theese workers
> > > spoke PLATTDEUTSCH as their mother tongue. My father was the boss of
> > > all. He not only was a farmer, he studied agriculture and ecconomies
> > > in the university, the workers learnd their job by dooing the job.
> > > They´ve never seen a highschol inside.
> > >
> > > In our family everybody spoke HOCHDEUTSCH as you may heare in TV or
> > > Radio.
> > > In the family of all theese workers everybody spoke PLATTDEUTSCH.
> > >
> > > To talk to each other on the  farmyard sometime the HOCHDEUTSCH
> > > speaking had to translate into PLATTDEUTSCH otherwise nobody would
> > > have understand you.
> > >
> > > We where 5 childrin, I´m the yongest one, bort in 1945. There were 3
> > > sisters and 2 broters. Two of my sisters could´t speak PLATTDEUTSCH
> > > they allways talked HOCHDEUTSCH to anybody. So many times the workers
> > > said: "Theese girls don´t speak like we do, they are snooty."
> > >
> > > On the other hand, all people in the town normaly spoke HOCHDEUTSCH,
> > > especialy the officials. So when a workerman came into town, to go for
> > > the court the judge spoke HOCHDEUTSCH and the worker didn´t
> > > understand. If the workerman had to speek he tried to chanche his
> > > language from PLATTDEUTSCH into HOCHDEUTSCH. This was very very funny
> > > to listen. The workerman was ashamed because anybody was smiling or
> > > laughing.
> > >
> > > So there was a big gap, difference, between those who spoke
> > > plattdeutsch (the PLATTDEUSCHe) and those who spoke hochdeutsch (the
> > > HOCHDEUTSCHe). It depends on income, on birth, an social rank, first
> > > class or under class, Boss or workerman, etc. This gap you might find
> > > even in a family.
> > >
> > > So my family lived on the east side of the contry of Schleswig
> > > Holstein witch is a rich farmland. Another part of my family lived on
> > > the west side of this contry Schleswig Holstein, witch is rich too.
> > > But right in the middle of this county the soil is bad, no wheat is
> > > growing there, cattle dont have enough food. So the farmer in this
> > > part of the country where poor.
> > >
> > > My eldest sister merried a farmer from this poor part of Schleswig
> > > Holstein. Anybody in this region spoke PLATTDEUTSCH. So my sister
> > > learned to speak PLATTDEUTSCH too. Within fwe years she couldn´t speak
> > > HOCHDEUTSCH anymore. Her sentences where full mistakes (as my english
> > > whriting here!!!). So the HOCHDEUTSCH-speaking people said:
> > > "Sie kann ja nicht mal richtig deutsch sprechen!"
> > > which means: She isn´t able to speak german correctly anymore.
> > > And the PLATTDEUTSCH-speaking people said:
> > > "She can´t speak like we do, she doesn´t belong to us!"
> > >
> > > This feelings of different way of live, depending of social classes or
> > > something like this, came out in the way you are talking to the
> > > people.
> > > There is a famous songwriter "Hannes Wader" still singing his songs in
> > > PLATTDEUTSCH. Some phrase of a song is:
> > > "Min good he kann keen plattdütsch mehr un´ he versteid uns nich!"
> > > which means:
> > > My good, he is unable to speak our langueage (platt) so he doesn´t
> > > understand us any longer.
> > >
> > > So you said:
> > > "But I don't know which side made the charge, nor who were the
> > > accused!"
> > > Your are very clear in your question.
> > > The answer is:
> > > Both sides made the charge and both sides were accused!
> > >
> > > So the reason is, that PLATTDEUTSCH is a real language like danish or
> > > english. Phonetic is quite near HOCHdeutsch, some parts come from
> > > other languages and some of the expressions you´ll find better in
> > > englisch rather than in german. But the syntax is different and there
> > > are a lot of different vocabularies.
> > >
> > > Oh my good - writing all this stuff in english is hard work. Please
> > > forgive all the mistakes.
> > > It is like:
> > > Oh my good he studied english at highschool an now he isn´t able to
> > > wright some smal sentenses.
> > >
> > > ----
> > >
> > > So it might happen that one part of your family called the other "The
> > > PLATTDEUTSCHE" which means: They belong to the under-class. The other
> > > part called them "The HOCHDEUTSCHE" witch means they seems to be
> > > arrogant.
> > >
> > > Even religion may cause thuch feelings: In our region the Roman
> > > Catholics are the minority, they call them "arogant". The maiority are
> > > Lutherean, nobody cares, that´s OK.  It´s nothing else than a normal
> > > prejudice, like it is in any other part of the world. Between
> > > HOCHDEUTSCHe and PLATTDEUTSCHe there are no problems now, but when I
> > > was a litle child, I knew exectly the differences. But I was able to
> > > speak PLATT- like I could speak HOCHdeutsch.
> > > I was a lucky child in a lucky family with a lot of freinds among the
> > > workers on our farm.
> > >
> > > I hope I´ve made it a little bit clear what the feelings are.
> > >
> > > Klaus (Vahlbruch)
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Hannover-L mailing list
> > > Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> > > http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Hannover-L mailing list
> > Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> > http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Hannover-L mailing list
> Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l



Re: [HN] PLATTDEUTSCHE...

Date: 2003/02/20 20:11:05
From: Maureen <mcshelly2(a)msn.com>

Then don't let it die!  Preserve it!  Write it down, record it, save it for
future scholars!  Make it your life's work!
Maureen

----- Original Message -----
From: "Carolyn Bening" <cbening(a)earthlink.net>
To: <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 12:09 PM
Subject: Re: [HN] PLATTDEUTSCHE...and they never spoke again


> To Erika and list members,
> This conversation and history lesson about Plattdeutsch is so interesting
to
> many of us who grew up with it spoken in our homes.
> My Oberösterreich families still speak a form of Platt of the Austrian
> dialect in their rural villages in Southeast Missouri that has not changed
> since immigration in 1853.  And my husband's family from the Osnabrück
> region (Venne and Engter villages) that settled in Washington County,
> Illinois (Venedy and Okawville) still speak a Platt dialect that delighted
> our visitors from Venne two years ago.  They could completely understand
> each other even after 150 years!
>
> That is what amazes me about these dialects.  In these somewhat isolated
> villages in America, the immigrant families have been able to (often
> stubbornly) retain their language...and thereby their culture and
traditions
> in ways that continually surprise, and delight, me.
>
> My Best Wishes,
> Carolyn Bening in Missouri
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Erika Giftge" <Giftge(a)t-online.de>
> To: <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
> Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 11:23 AM
> Subject: Re: [HN] PLATTDEUTSCHE...and they never spoke again
>
>
> > Hi everyone interested in Plattdeutsch,
> >
> > I only now found the time to read all your questions and explanations.
> > Perhaps I can add  another little bit to the puzzle.
> >
> > I grew up on a small farm about 20 miles from Osnabrück, an area today
> being
> > part of Lower saxony, but only a few miles away from westphalia.
> > Grand-parents and parents (though my mom is from a bigger town and only
> was
> > confronted with low German after their marriage after WWII) spoke both
> High
> > German and platt, but as was pointed out before, didn't want us children
> to
> > really  speak it, because they were told that we'd do better in school
not
> > being mixed up between two languages. I wish they had encouraged me more
> to
> > speak it, after having been able to learn English I am sure this
wouldn't
> > have bothered me at all. Anyways, I can only speak a few words, but am
> > pretty fluent in understanding it.
> > But what I wanted to point out, that there are big differences between
the
> > platt that is being spoken in Schleswig Holstein, Frisia, Hanburg,
Bremen
> or
> > even Pommern. And I even know that there are differences from one little
> > village to another, although being only a mile apart. Years ago I saw a
> show
> > on TV where someone was able to tell where people came from just by
> hearing
> > such differences, and to me it was all platt. Here is an example:
> > The word ladder (Leiter  in high German) was called LEDDER with my
parents
> > and the neighbouring village called it BIAERM, ink was either called ENK
> OR
> > BLACK or even only DINTE (Tinte in High German), a girl was called
WICHT
> or
> > LÜT etc. Also the prnounciation has loads of differences between
villages
> > and areas even if they do use the same words.In addition there are no
> rules
> > for writing platt, it is just written as spoken.
> >
> > I found an article in German about the Platt in the area specified by DR
> > Gisbert Keseling . If anyone is interested I could send a copy (5-6
pages,
> > but too much to copy and publish on the list)
> > In this case and if anyone needs a German translation of this mail,
please
> > write to me privately and don't answer to the list.
> >
> > Erika
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Vahlbruch" <klaus-moni-vahlbruch(a)t-online.de>
> > To: <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
> > Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 8:47 PM
> > Subject: Re: [HN] PLATTDEUTSCHE...and they never spoke again
> >
> >
> > > Maureen schrieb:
> > > >
> > > > Was this variation confined to one part of Germany or one class of
> > Germans?
> > > > I ask because I have heard that one branch of my mother's family
> called
> > > > another branch "Plattdeutsche" and they never spoke again.  But I
> don't
> > know
> > > > which side made the charge, nor who were the accused!  One side was
> > Bremen
> > > > and Hannover Evangelical Lutheran ----- and the other side was from
> the
> > > > Eifel in Rhineland-Pfalz and Roman Catholic.  Can anyone help solve
> the
> > > > puzzle:  who were the arrogant name-callers?
> > > > Maureen
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Hannover-L mailing list
> > > > Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> > > > http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l
> > > **********************************************************************
> > >
> > > Hi Maureen,
> > > hi anybody else in the list.
> > >
> > > I´ve read anything my colleges told you, but I think nobody answert
> > > your Question:
> > > "I ask because I have heard that one branch of my mother's family
> > > called another branch "Plattdeutsche" and they never spoke again."
> > >
> > > Your observation is quite right. Such things happen.
> > >
> > > You should now a litle bit about me an where I come from so you´ll
> > > understand better what I´ll tell you about the Plattdeutsche /
> > > Hochdeutsche.
> > >
> > > I was born on a big farm 200 Hektar, which is very large. This farm is
> > > next to the danish border near the town of Flensburg. Look at the map.
> > > It is the northest of north germany. A typecally
> > > Plattdeutsch-region!!! They still speak PLATTDEUTSCH today on the
> > > street.
> > >
> > > On this farm there were about 20 - 30 workers. All theese workers
> > > spoke PLATTDEUTSCH as their mother tongue. My father was the boss of
> > > all. He not only was a farmer, he studied agriculture and ecconomies
> > > in the university, the workers learnd their job by dooing the job.
> > > They´ve never seen a highschol inside.
> > >
> > > In our family everybody spoke HOCHDEUTSCH as you may heare in TV or
> > > Radio.
> > > In the family of all theese workers everybody spoke PLATTDEUTSCH.
> > >
> > > To talk to each other on the  farmyard sometime the HOCHDEUTSCH
> > > speaking had to translate into PLATTDEUTSCH otherwise nobody would
> > > have understand you.
> > >
> > > We where 5 childrin, I´m the yongest one, bort in 1945. There were 3
> > > sisters and 2 broters. Two of my sisters could´t speak PLATTDEUTSCH
> > > they allways talked HOCHDEUTSCH to anybody. So many times the workers
> > > said: "Theese girls don´t speak like we do, they are snooty."
> > >
> > > On the other hand, all people in the town normaly spoke HOCHDEUTSCH,
> > > especialy the officials. So when a workerman came into town, to go for
> > > the court the judge spoke HOCHDEUTSCH and the worker didn´t
> > > understand. If the workerman had to speek he tried to chanche his
> > > language from PLATTDEUTSCH into HOCHDEUTSCH. This was very very funny
> > > to listen. The workerman was ashamed because anybody was smiling or
> > > laughing.
> > >
> > > So there was a big gap, difference, between those who spoke
> > > plattdeutsch (the PLATTDEUSCHe) and those who spoke hochdeutsch (the
> > > HOCHDEUTSCHe). It depends on income, on birth, an social rank, first
> > > class or under class, Boss or workerman, etc. This gap you might find
> > > even in a family.
> > >
> > > So my family lived on the east side of the contry of Schleswig
> > > Holstein witch is a rich farmland. Another part of my family lived on
> > > the west side of this contry Schleswig Holstein, witch is rich too.
> > > But right in the middle of this county the soil is bad, no wheat is
> > > growing there, cattle dont have enough food. So the farmer in this
> > > part of the country where poor.
> > >
> > > My eldest sister merried a farmer from this poor part of Schleswig
> > > Holstein. Anybody in this region spoke PLATTDEUTSCH. So my sister
> > > learned to speak PLATTDEUTSCH too. Within fwe years she couldn´t speak
> > > HOCHDEUTSCH anymore. Her sentences where full mistakes (as my english
> > > whriting here!!!). So the HOCHDEUTSCH-speaking people said:
> > > "Sie kann ja nicht mal richtig deutsch sprechen!"
> > > which means: She isn´t able to speak german correctly anymore.
> > > And the PLATTDEUTSCH-speaking people said:
> > > "She can´t speak like we do, she doesn´t belong to us!"
> > >
> > > This feelings of different way of live, depending of social classes or
> > > something like this, came out in the way you are talking to the
> > > people.
> > > There is a famous songwriter "Hannes Wader" still singing his songs in
> > > PLATTDEUTSCH. Some phrase of a song is:
> > > "Min good he kann keen plattdütsch mehr un´ he versteid uns nich!"
> > > which means:
> > > My good, he is unable to speak our langueage (platt) so he doesn´t
> > > understand us any longer.
> > >
> > > So you said:
> > > "But I don't know which side made the charge, nor who were the
> > > accused!"
> > > Your are very clear in your question.
> > > The answer is:
> > > Both sides made the charge and both sides were accused!
> > >
> > > So the reason is, that PLATTDEUTSCH is a real language like danish or
> > > english. Phonetic is quite near HOCHdeutsch, some parts come from
> > > other languages and some of the expressions you´ll find better in
> > > englisch rather than in german. But the syntax is different and there
> > > are a lot of different vocabularies.
> > >
> > > Oh my good - writing all this stuff in english is hard work. Please
> > > forgive all the mistakes.
> > > It is like:
> > > Oh my good he studied english at highschool an now he isn´t able to
> > > wright some smal sentenses.
> > >
> > > ----
> > >
> > > So it might happen that one part of your family called the other "The
> > > PLATTDEUTSCHE" which means: They belong to the under-class. The other
> > > part called them "The HOCHDEUTSCHE" witch means they seems to be
> > > arrogant.
> > >
> > > Even religion may cause thuch feelings: In our region the Roman
> > > Catholics are the minority, they call them "arogant". The maiority are
> > > Lutherean, nobody cares, that´s OK.  It´s nothing else than a normal
> > > prejudice, like it is in any other part of the world. Between
> > > HOCHDEUTSCHe and PLATTDEUTSCHe there are no problems now, but when I
> > > was a litle child, I knew exectly the differences. But I was able to
> > > speak PLATT- like I could speak HOCHdeutsch.
> > > I was a lucky child in a lucky family with a lot of freinds among the
> > > workers on our farm.
> > >
> > > I hope I´ve made it a little bit clear what the feelings are.
> > >
> > > Klaus (Vahlbruch)
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Hannover-L mailing list
> > > Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> > > http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Hannover-L mailing list
> > Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> > http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l
> >
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Hannover-L mailing list
> Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l
>


[HN] Thank you

Date: 2003/02/20 20:15:31
From: Onegeneration <Onegeneration(a)aol.com>

Viele Grüße,

I wish I could speak German, but I don't, it will be a few days before I can 
find someone to interpret your message.

Thank you so much for sending me to the Blume web site.  I really appreciate 
it.

Diane 
Missouri


Re: [HN] Re: [NLF] Garnison Kirchenbücher Hannover Bd. 1 - 4

Date: 2003/02/20 20:23:38
From: Hans Peter Albers <320097756779-0001(a)t-online.de>

Sorry to all people puzzling about the message to H.Kemm, it went wrong and was 
meant for the other list, nlf(a)genealogy.net, of the Genealogical Society of 
Lower Saxony. Interesting discussion on "Plattdeutsch" going on.Hans Peter Albers 



Re: [HN] PLATTDEUTSCHE...

Date: 2003/02/20 21:02:28
From: Erika Giftge <Giftge(a)t-online.de>

In some parts of the country plattdeutsch has returned into schools, it is
taught like a foreign language, but this is not true of the whole country.
In German villages and towns you can find clubs which try to preserve it,
there is a TV show occationally and  there are theatre plays on TV
sometimes, but this does not preserve the many differences of a local
tongues which only a living language can do.

Erika

----- Original Message -----
From: "Maureen" <mcshelly2(a)msn.com>
To: <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 8:07 PM
Subject: Re: [HN] PLATTDEUTSCHE...


> Then don't let it die!  Preserve it!  Write it down, record it, save it
for
> future scholars!  Make it your life's work!
> Maureen
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Carolyn Bening" <cbening(a)earthlink.net>
> To: <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
> Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 12:09 PM
> Subject: Re: [HN] PLATTDEUTSCHE...and they never spoke again
>
>
> > To Erika and list members,
> > This conversation and history lesson about Plattdeutsch is so
interesting
> to
> > many of us who grew up with it spoken in our homes.
> > My Oberösterreich families still speak a form of Platt of the Austrian
> > dialect in their rural villages in Southeast Missouri that has not
changed
> > since immigration in 1853.  And my husband's family from the Osnabrück
> > region (Venne and Engter villages) that settled in Washington County,
> > Illinois (Venedy and Okawville) still speak a Platt dialect that
delighted
> > our visitors from Venne two years ago.  They could completely understand
> > each other even after 150 years!
> >
> > That is what amazes me about these dialects.  In these somewhat isolated
> > villages in America, the immigrant families have been able to (often
> > stubbornly) retain their language...and thereby their culture and
> traditions
> > in ways that continually surprise, and delight, me.
> >
> > My Best Wishes,
> > Carolyn Bening in Missouri
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Erika Giftge" <Giftge(a)t-online.de>
> > To: <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
> > Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 11:23 AM
> > Subject: Re: [HN] PLATTDEUTSCHE...and they never spoke again
> >
> >
> > > Hi everyone interested in Plattdeutsch,
> > >
> > > I only now found the time to read all your questions and explanations.
> > > Perhaps I can add  another little bit to the puzzle.
> > >
> > > I grew up on a small farm about 20 miles from Osnabrück, an area today
> > being
> > > part of Lower saxony, but only a few miles away from westphalia.
> > > Grand-parents and parents (though my mom is from a bigger town and
only
> > was
> > > confronted with low German after their marriage after WWII) spoke both
> > High
> > > German and platt, but as was pointed out before, didn't want us
children
> > to
> > > really  speak it, because they were told that we'd do better in school
> not
> > > being mixed up between two languages. I wish they had encouraged me
more
> > to
> > > speak it, after having been able to learn English I am sure this
> wouldn't
> > > have bothered me at all. Anyways, I can only speak a few words, but am
> > > pretty fluent in understanding it.
> > > But what I wanted to point out, that there are big differences between
> the
> > > platt that is being spoken in Schleswig Holstein, Frisia, Hanburg,
> Bremen
> > or
> > > even Pommern. And I even know that there are differences from one
little
> > > village to another, although being only a mile apart. Years ago I saw
a
> > show
> > > on TV where someone was able to tell where people came from just by
> > hearing
> > > such differences, and to me it was all platt. Here is an example:
> > > The word ladder (Leiter  in high German) was called LEDDER with my
> parents
> > > and the neighbouring village called it BIAERM, ink was either called
ENK
> > OR
> > > BLACK or even only DINTE (Tinte in High German), a girl was called
> WICHT
> > or
> > > LÜT etc. Also the prnounciation has loads of differences between
> villages
> > > and areas even if they do use the same words.In addition there are no
> > rules
> > > for writing platt, it is just written as spoken.
> > >
> > > I found an article in German about the Platt in the area specified by
DR
> > > Gisbert Keseling . If anyone is interested I could send a copy (5-6
> pages,
> > > but too much to copy and publish on the list)
> > > In this case and if anyone needs a German translation of this mail,
> please
> > > write to me privately and don't answer to the list.
> > >
> > > Erika
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Vahlbruch" <klaus-moni-vahlbruch(a)t-online.de>
> > > To: <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
> > > Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 8:47 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [HN] PLATTDEUTSCHE...and they never spoke again
> > >
> > >
> > > > Maureen schrieb:
> > > > >
> > > > > Was this variation confined to one part of Germany or one class of
> > > Germans?
> > > > > I ask because I have heard that one branch of my mother's family
> > called
> > > > > another branch "Plattdeutsche" and they never spoke again.  But I
> > don't
> > > know
> > > > > which side made the charge, nor who were the accused!  One side
was
> > > Bremen
> > > > > and Hannover Evangelical Lutheran ----- and the other side was
from
> > the
> > > > > Eifel in Rhineland-Pfalz and Roman Catholic.  Can anyone help
solve
> > the
> > > > > puzzle:  who were the arrogant name-callers?
> > > > > Maureen
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Hannover-L mailing list
> > > > > Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> > > > > http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l
> > > >
**********************************************************************
> > > >
> > > > Hi Maureen,
> > > > hi anybody else in the list.
> > > >
> > > > I´ve read anything my colleges told you, but I think nobody answert
> > > > your Question:
> > > > "I ask because I have heard that one branch of my mother's family
> > > > called another branch "Plattdeutsche" and they never spoke again."
> > > >
> > > > Your observation is quite right. Such things happen.
> > > >
> > > > You should now a litle bit about me an where I come from so you´ll
> > > > understand better what I´ll tell you about the Plattdeutsche /
> > > > Hochdeutsche.
> > > >
> > > > I was born on a big farm 200 Hektar, which is very large. This farm
is
> > > > next to the danish border near the town of Flensburg. Look at the
map.
> > > > It is the northest of north germany. A typecally
> > > > Plattdeutsch-region!!! They still speak PLATTDEUTSCH today on the
> > > > street.
> > > >
> > > > On this farm there were about 20 - 30 workers. All theese workers
> > > > spoke PLATTDEUTSCH as their mother tongue. My father was the boss of
> > > > all. He not only was a farmer, he studied agriculture and ecconomies
> > > > in the university, the workers learnd their job by dooing the job.
> > > > They´ve never seen a highschol inside.
> > > >
> > > > In our family everybody spoke HOCHDEUTSCH as you may heare in TV or
> > > > Radio.
> > > > In the family of all theese workers everybody spoke PLATTDEUTSCH.
> > > >
> > > > To talk to each other on the  farmyard sometime the HOCHDEUTSCH
> > > > speaking had to translate into PLATTDEUTSCH otherwise nobody would
> > > > have understand you.
> > > >
> > > > We where 5 childrin, I´m the yongest one, bort in 1945. There were 3
> > > > sisters and 2 broters. Two of my sisters could´t speak PLATTDEUTSCH
> > > > they allways talked HOCHDEUTSCH to anybody. So many times the
workers
> > > > said: "Theese girls don´t speak like we do, they are snooty."
> > > >
> > > > On the other hand, all people in the town normaly spoke HOCHDEUTSCH,
> > > > especialy the officials. So when a workerman came into town, to go
for
> > > > the court the judge spoke HOCHDEUTSCH and the worker didn´t
> > > > understand. If the workerman had to speek he tried to chanche his
> > > > language from PLATTDEUTSCH into HOCHDEUTSCH. This was very very
funny
> > > > to listen. The workerman was ashamed because anybody was smiling or
> > > > laughing.
> > > >
> > > > So there was a big gap, difference, between those who spoke
> > > > plattdeutsch (the PLATTDEUSCHe) and those who spoke hochdeutsch (the
> > > > HOCHDEUTSCHe). It depends on income, on birth, an social rank, first
> > > > class or under class, Boss or workerman, etc. This gap you might
find
> > > > even in a family.
> > > >
> > > > So my family lived on the east side of the contry of Schleswig
> > > > Holstein witch is a rich farmland. Another part of my family lived
on
> > > > the west side of this contry Schleswig Holstein, witch is rich too.
> > > > But right in the middle of this county the soil is bad, no wheat is
> > > > growing there, cattle dont have enough food. So the farmer in this
> > > > part of the country where poor.
> > > >
> > > > My eldest sister merried a farmer from this poor part of Schleswig
> > > > Holstein. Anybody in this region spoke PLATTDEUTSCH. So my sister
> > > > learned to speak PLATTDEUTSCH too. Within fwe years she couldn´t
speak
> > > > HOCHDEUTSCH anymore. Her sentences where full mistakes (as my
english
> > > > whriting here!!!). So the HOCHDEUTSCH-speaking people said:
> > > > "Sie kann ja nicht mal richtig deutsch sprechen!"
> > > > which means: She isn´t able to speak german correctly anymore.
> > > > And the PLATTDEUTSCH-speaking people said:
> > > > "She can´t speak like we do, she doesn´t belong to us!"
> > > >
> > > > This feelings of different way of live, depending of social classes
or
> > > > something like this, came out in the way you are talking to the
> > > > people.
> > > > There is a famous songwriter "Hannes Wader" still singing his songs
in
> > > > PLATTDEUTSCH. Some phrase of a song is:
> > > > "Min good he kann keen plattdütsch mehr un´ he versteid uns nich!"
> > > > which means:
> > > > My good, he is unable to speak our langueage (platt) so he doesn´t
> > > > understand us any longer.
> > > >
> > > > So you said:
> > > > "But I don't know which side made the charge, nor who were the
> > > > accused!"
> > > > Your are very clear in your question.
> > > > The answer is:
> > > > Both sides made the charge and both sides were accused!
> > > >
> > > > So the reason is, that PLATTDEUTSCH is a real language like danish
or
> > > > english. Phonetic is quite near HOCHdeutsch, some parts come from
> > > > other languages and some of the expressions you´ll find better in
> > > > englisch rather than in german. But the syntax is different and
there
> > > > are a lot of different vocabularies.
> > > >
> > > > Oh my good - writing all this stuff in english is hard work. Please
> > > > forgive all the mistakes.
> > > > It is like:
> > > > Oh my good he studied english at highschool an now he isn´t able to
> > > > wright some smal sentenses.
> > > >
> > > > ----
> > > >
> > > > So it might happen that one part of your family called the other
"The
> > > > PLATTDEUTSCHE" which means: They belong to the under-class. The
other
> > > > part called them "The HOCHDEUTSCHE" witch means they seems to be
> > > > arrogant.
> > > >
> > > > Even religion may cause thuch feelings: In our region the Roman
> > > > Catholics are the minority, they call them "arogant". The maiority
are
> > > > Lutherean, nobody cares, that´s OK.  It´s nothing else than a normal
> > > > prejudice, like it is in any other part of the world. Between
> > > > HOCHDEUTSCHe and PLATTDEUTSCHe there are no problems now, but when I
> > > > was a litle child, I knew exectly the differences. But I was able to
> > > > speak PLATT- like I could speak HOCHdeutsch.
> > > > I was a lucky child in a lucky family with a lot of freinds among
the
> > > > workers on our farm.
> > > >
> > > > I hope I´ve made it a little bit clear what the feelings are.
> > > >
> > > > Klaus (Vahlbruch)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Hannover-L mailing list
> > > > Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> > > > http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Hannover-L mailing list
> > > Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> > > http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Hannover-L mailing list
> > Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> > http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> Hannover-L mailing list
> Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l



Re: [HN] PLATTDEUTSCHE

Date: 2003/02/20 21:09:24
From: mstulken <mstulken(a)discover-net.net>

Hi, Diane,

Is "Carbonier" possibly French?

Marilyn

Onegeneration(a)aol.com wrote:

> My ggrandparents all settled in a town called Berlin in Nebraska, when the
> war came along they changed the name to Otoe, for it is in Otoe County.  This
> was back in the 1800's.  It was a German settlement.
>
> My grandmother spoke high German, and I know that when the subject came up,
> she always gave me the impression that to speak low German was not good.  I
> was to young to know or for that matter to care what it meant.
>
> The names were Fastenau, Blume, Raven, Charbonier.  I have just started
> searching this family so do not know much about them.
>
> I have never searched anything in German, this is my first list, so I will
> lurk awhile and learn.  I enjoy "listening" to your conversations.
>
> diane
>
> _______________________________________________
> Hannover-L mailing list
> Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l



Re: [HN] PLATTDEUTSCHE...and they never spoke again

Date: 2003/02/20 21:43:10
From: Fred Rump <fredrump(a)earthlink.net>

On 20 Feb 2003 at 13:25, THEBOSCHBOSCHE(a)aol.com wrote:

> Just a comment on understanding different dialects.  My father had
an
> easier time talking to his Danish brother-in-law than he did talking
> with one of his German brother-in-laws.   My fathers family is from
> the Anderten-Hoya part of the Kingdom of Hanover.

While on the topic - while serving in the US army in Germany in the
late 50s and while on maneuvers down either at Grafenwöhr or
Wildflecken in Franconia, I went with two buddies to see if we
couldn't locate a farmer where we could buy some sausage or other non-
c-ration food. Gi's would know what I'm talking about.

Anyway Privates Freeman and Artz were both from Pennsylvania Dutch
country. Since I could speak fluent German they had just came along
to help me carry anything I might be able to organize for our squad.
I had a hell of a time understanding the farmer I was talking to.
Suddenly the both of them joined into the conversation and now "I"
didn't know what anyone was talking about. I was the foreigner in
Germany as these two used their PA Dutch to have a great conversation
with the farmer. We came away with lots of good stuff (a chunk of
ham, some sausages, a loaf of bread and cheese) which we purchased
from the man.

This experience never left my memory as I was so totally shocked to
learn that a language several hundred years old and carried on in far
away America was better understood out in the Franconian country side
then my regular hochdeutsch. Certainly they understood the man 'much'
then I did. I was flabbergasted to say the least as I had never even
heard these guys talk in Pa Dutch or better in Pennsylvania German.

We were all stationed in Schweinfurt and I got to understand the
local lingo better over time. I was in charge of our regimental
soccer team (Schweinfurt 05, 3rd Div) and we would play the local
soccer teams out in the boondogs. We would pull in with a duce 1/2 (2
1/2 ton army truck) and play and then party. It was always lots of
fun.

Later one of our PA Dutch friends had travelled north to Holland and
reported that he also got along quite well with the locals. It didn't
work that way with hochdeutsch though.

Memories. I wonder where my buddies are now.

Fred





4788 Corian Court
Naples, FL 34114
239-775-7838; 239-269-4781 (cell)
FredRump(a)earthlink.net





Re: [HN] PLATTDEUTSCHE...and they never spoke again

Date: 2003/02/20 22:03:35
From: THEBOSCHBOSCHE <THEBOSCHBOSCHE(a)aol.com>

Fred:

It sounds like you have a much treasured experience.

What you said about Americans being able to speak older dialects of German is 
not unusual.    The immigrants were not exposed to many of the day to day 
changes that took place in Germany, hence their German never changed.

An example of this occurred several years ago when the Swedish government 
went to a town in Minnesota to record an old dialect of Swedish which no 
longer existed in Sweden.

The Library of Congress has a branch which does nothing but record  dialects 
of old or even thought to be lost languages which still exist in the U.S.  
The library has some unbelievable recordings from the Appalachian areas.

I mentioned in an earlier listing that a town near where I grew up  (Manning 
Iowa) is having a Low German conference in October this year.


Gale


Re: [HN] Lengerich - Hannover

Date: 2003/02/21 00:49:25
From: Patricia Knight <pknight1(a)fidnet.com>

Hello Werner!

My gggrandmother's name was Margaretha Schroeder b. July 10, 1835 and d. May
26, 1910 in St. Louis , MO.
Fredrich Dedeke was b. May 14, 1825 and d. April 9, 1900 in Waterloo, IL.

Pat
----- Original Message -----
From: "Werner Honkomp" <Werner.Honkomp(a)t-online.de>
To: <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 12:47 PM
Subject: Re: [HN] Lengerich - Hannover


>
> > My real question is this...my gggrandmother from Hanover...in her obit ,
> > it
> > stated that she was from Leadwich Dres, Hanover ...she died in Waterloo,
> > IL.
> > This might be the area (Lengerich) that they wrote...I am just grasping
at
> > straws since I have been told there is no such place.
>
> > Would this be the area of Hanover....crossing my fingers....that she
could
> > have been from Lengerich ?????
>
> What is the first and surname of your gggrandmother?
>
> I have some Drees in parish Lengerich.
>
> Werner
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Hannover-L mailing list
> Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l
>



Re: [HN] Lonnemann Lengerich

Date: 2003/02/21 00:51:21
From: Patricia Knight <pknight1(a)fidnet.com>

Fredrich Dedeke states on obit and church records that he was from Hanover,
Germany.  I don't know much else about them before the Waterloo, IL area.

I will check the LDS again.

Thanks

Pat
----- Original Message -----
From: "Barbara Stewart" <raymondg(a)attbi.com>
To: <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 11:12 AM
Subject: Re: [HN] Lonnemann Lengerich


> Hello Patricia,
>       Is there any chance that the  FRIEDERICH CHRISTIAN DEDEKE  born in
> 1829 in Frille, Westfalen, Prussia could be your ancestor?  It is on the
LDS
> website.  Do you have birth and marriage dates for your people?
> Barbara
>
>
>
>
> on 2/20/03 9:24 AM, Patricia Knight at pknight1(a)fidnet.com wrote:
>
> > This is a very interesting discussion...low and high German. My mother
often
> > spoke of her family's dislike for one side of the family and said that
they
> > spoke low German and the other side high German. I don't think she knew
what
> > was meant but, took it to mean ...demeaning in nature.
> >
> > My real question is this...my gggrandmother from Hanover...in her obit ,
it
> > stated that she was from Leadwich Dres, Hanover ...she died in Waterloo,
IL.
> > This might be the area (Lengerich) that they wrote...I am just grasping
at
> > straws since I have been told there is no such place.
> >
> > Would this be the area of Hanover....crossing my fingers....that she
could
> > have been from Lengerich ?????
> >
> > The surnames involved were Griemel from Grossen Linden , Hessen, Germany
and
> > Dedeke , Schmidt , Spellmeyer\Spellmeier from Hanover.
> >
> > The church that they belonged to all spoke German in the 1850\1900 time
> > frame in Waterloo, IL.  They didn't use English in their services until
> > about 1910. She was Margaret Schroeder and her husband was Fredrich
Dedeke
> > both born in Hanover.
> >
> > Just hoping that I can locate the area of their birth.
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Pat
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Teresa McMillin" <teresamcmillin(a)attbi.com>
> > To: <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
> > Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 10:04 PM
> > Subject: RE: [HN] Lonnemann Lengerich
> >
> >
> >> Thanks for your help, Werner!
> >>
> >> Teresa
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: hannover-l-admin(a)genealogy.net
> >> [mailto:hannover-l-admin(a)genealogy.net]On Behalf Of Werner Honkomp
> >> Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 11:25 AM
> >> To: hannover-l(a)genealogy.net
> >> Subject: RE: [HN] Lonnemann Lengerich
> >>
> >>
> >> Hello Teresa,
> >> there is not a Steinkamp but some Stein and two Lonnemann:
> >>
> >> - Lonnemann Johann Rudolph, born about 1810 in Gersten, parish
> > St.Benedictus
> >> Lengerich(Lingen county)
> >> no married Heuerlingssohn(son of a Heuermann), emigrated 1840
> >>
> >> - Lonnemann Anna Maria, born 22.Sep.1844 in Bregenbeke, parish
Lengerich,
> >> emigrated 1866,
> >> parents: Heuermann Johann Berard Lonnemann and Anna Christina Kuhl
> >>
> >> That's all,
> >> Werner
> >>
> >>> Hi Werner,
> >>
> >>> I noticed your reference to the emigrants book of the former Landkreis
> >>> Lingen.  Were there any STEINKAMP's or LONNEMAN's who emigrated from
> > that
> >>> area?
> >>
> >>> Thanks for your help!
> >>
> >>> Teresa
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Hannover-L mailing list
> >> Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> >> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Hannover-L mailing list
> >> Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> >> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l
> >>
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Hannover-L mailing list
> > Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> > http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Hannover-L mailing list
> Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l
>



Re: [HN] Lonnemann Lengerich

Date: 2003/02/21 01:27:09
From: Barbara Stewart <raymondg(a)attbi.com>

Hi Pat,
    Frille is very near to the city of Petershagen. I do think that would
have been in the kingdom of Hannover.  The city of Hannover is not that far
away.  The LDS has church records for Frille in the 1800's.  I must tell you
that even tombstones can be wrong on dates.  This was so for my
great-grandmother born in Germany.  Or perhaps whoever read the original
record could  have misread the date of birth.  I don't want to mislead you,
but I think I'd take a look at the film. Were your grandparents married when
they came to the U.S.?
Good luck!
Barbara



on 2/20/03 4:32 PM, Patricia Knight at pknight1(a)fidnet.com wrote:

> Fredrich Dedeke states on obit and church records that he was from Hanover,
> Germany.  I don't know much else about them before the Waterloo, IL area.
> 
> I will check the LDS again.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Pat
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Barbara Stewart" <raymondg(a)attbi.com>
> To: <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
> Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 11:12 AM
> Subject: Re: [HN] Lonnemann Lengerich
> 
> 
>> Hello Patricia,
>> Is there any chance that the  FRIEDERICH CHRISTIAN DEDEKE  born in
>> 1829 in Frille, Westfalen, Prussia could be your ancestor?  It is on the
> LDS
>> website.  Do you have birth and marriage dates for your people?
>> Barbara
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> on 2/20/03 9:24 AM, Patricia Knight at pknight1(a)fidnet.com wrote:
>> 
>>> This is a very interesting discussion...low and high German. My mother
> often
>>> spoke of her family's dislike for one side of the family and said that
> they
>>> spoke low German and the other side high German. I don't think she knew
> what
>>> was meant but, took it to mean ...demeaning in nature.
>>> 
>>> My real question is this...my gggrandmother from Hanover...in her obit ,
> it
>>> stated that she was from Leadwich Dres, Hanover ...she died in Waterloo,
> IL.
>>> This might be the area (Lengerich) that they wrote...I am just grasping
> at
>>> straws since I have been told there is no such place.
>>> 
>>> Would this be the area of Hanover....crossing my fingers....that she
> could
>>> have been from Lengerich ?????
>>> 
>>> The surnames involved were Griemel from Grossen Linden , Hessen, Germany
> and
>>> Dedeke , Schmidt , Spellmeyer\Spellmeier from Hanover.
>>> 
>>> The church that they belonged to all spoke German in the 1850\1900 time
>>> frame in Waterloo, IL.  They didn't use English in their services until
>>> about 1910. She was Margaret Schroeder and her husband was Fredrich
> Dedeke
>>> both born in Hanover.
>>> 
>>> Just hoping that I can locate the area of their birth.
>>> 
>>> Thanks
>>> 
>>> Pat
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Teresa McMillin" <teresamcmillin(a)attbi.com>
>>> To: <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 10:04 PM
>>> Subject: RE: [HN] Lonnemann Lengerich
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> Thanks for your help, Werner!
>>>> 
>>>> Teresa
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: hannover-l-admin(a)genealogy.net
>>>> [mailto:hannover-l-admin(a)genealogy.net]On Behalf Of Werner Honkomp
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 11:25 AM
>>>> To: hannover-l(a)genealogy.net
>>>> Subject: RE: [HN] Lonnemann Lengerich
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Hello Teresa,
>>>> there is not a Steinkamp but some Stein and two Lonnemann:
>>>> 
>>>> - Lonnemann Johann Rudolph, born about 1810 in Gersten, parish
>>> St.Benedictus
>>>> Lengerich(Lingen county)
>>>> no married Heuerlingssohn(son of a Heuermann), emigrated 1840
>>>> 
>>>> - Lonnemann Anna Maria, born 22.Sep.1844 in Bregenbeke, parish
> Lengerich,
>>>> emigrated 1866,
>>>> parents: Heuermann Johann Berard Lonnemann and Anna Christina Kuhl
>>>> 
>>>> That's all,
>>>> Werner
>>>> 
>>>>> Hi Werner,
>>>> 
>>>>> I noticed your reference to the emigrants book of the former Landkreis
>>>>> Lingen.  Were there any STEINKAMP's or LONNEMAN's who emigrated from
>>> that
>>>>> area?
>>>> 
>>>>> Thanks for your help!
>>>> 
>>>>> Teresa
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Hannover-L mailing list
>>>> Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
>>>> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Hannover-L mailing list
>>>> Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
>>>> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Hannover-L mailing list
>>> Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
>>> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Hannover-L mailing list
>> Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
>> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l
>> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Hannover-L mailing list
> Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l



Re: [HN] Plattdeutsch und so weiter...

Date: 2003/02/21 01:27:43
From: The Prough's <dprough(a)mail.win.org>

Thanks to all who have been discussing Plattdeutsch. I finally have a better understanding of my parents refusal to teach us German. The only reason they gave was that they spoke different German. Since I have found that both families suffered a lot of discrimination during WWI and that may have also had an influence on them also. Mothers family Tammen from Westerholt in Ostfriesland and Fathers, Castens, Frielingen in Hanover and Goedecke, Twiste in Waldeck.

Yvonne in Missouri


Re: [HN] Lengerich - Hannover

Date: 2003/02/21 01:52:41
From: Hans Peter Albers <320097756779-0001(a)t-online.de>

I found "Liekwegen" = 31688 Nienstedt b.Stadthagen, perhaps that is your 
"Leadwich Dres", because it´s near to the town of Hanover and the German "Lie..." 
sounds as the English "Lea...". I found two "Lengerich", one in "Westfalia", the 
other in the "Emsland". Both seem not to belong to the Kingdom of Hannover, but 
to Westfalia, nowadays Nordrhein-Westfalen. Could you check the source and con- 
trole the writing of the found "Leadwich Dres" ? Perhaps it is one word and 
slightly written in another way. There is no sense in "Dres", except in the Latin 
shortform for "Doctores". But that can`t be, so it´s to uncommon for a Townname 
or -suffix, village or otherwise name. Perhaps you can cite the whole context, 
"Leadwich Dres" is taken from. 

So much for this                            Hans Peter Albers




Re: [HN] Lengerich - Hannover

Date: 2003/02/21 05:01:04
From: Barbara Stewart <raymondg(a)attbi.com>

Patricia,
    Here is a good website for looking at towns in Germany. Perhaps you can
find something that sounds like the name of Leadwich Dres.  Maybe someone
was guessing at the spelling:

       http://www.muc.de/~cfaerber/dmoz/de-gemeinden/l.html

It takes awhile to load.  This should be the page starting with L.

Also, I think that Lengerich in Emsland would be in the Kingdom of Hannover.
Someone on the list mentioned this map of the Kingdom of Hannover and I
don't think the borders always follow what is today known as Niedersachsen.
Scroll down on the page and you will see the maps. Am I wrong, Hans? :

     http://www.koenigreich-hannover.de/ukindex2.html

    It could be that when I said Frille was in the Hannover area, I was
wrong.  The way it looks to me it is near Petershagen which, according to
this map, it would be in the Hannover kingdom.

    Also, there are  times when someone lists their origin and they say
Hannover, they do actually mean the city.  Maybe the Leadwich Dres was an
region or area in the city???

Barbara




on 2/20/03 5:52 PM, Hans Peter Albers at 320097756779-0001(a)t-online.de
wrote:

> I found "Liekwegen" = 31688 Nienstedt b.Stadthagen, perhaps that is your
> "Leadwich Dres", because it´s near to the town of Hanover and the German
> "Lie..." 
> sounds as the English "Lea...". I found two "Lengerich", one in "Westfalia",
> the 
> other in the "Emsland". Both seem not to belong to the Kingdom of Hannover,
> but 
> to Westfalia, nowadays Nordrhein-Westfalen. Could you check the source and
> con- 
> trole the writing of the found "Leadwich Dres" ? Perhaps it is one word and
> slightly written in another way. There is no sense in "Dres", except in the
> Latin 
> shortform for "Doctores". But that can`t be, so it´s to uncommon for a
> Townname 
> or -suffix, village or otherwise name. Perhaps you can cite the whole context,
> "Leadwich Dres" is taken from.
> 
> So much for this                            Hans Peter Albers
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Hannover-L mailing list
> Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l



Re: [HN] Lonnemann Lengerich

Date: 2003/02/21 07:13:54
From: Barbara Stewart <raymondg(a)attbi.com>

Hello again, 
      Here's  more to think about.  There is a German website that has a
search directory for emigrants from Hannover, Osnabruck, and Wolfbuttel.
There are records of the necessary permission to emigrate.  I just did a
search and there are 4 Dedecke listed, 3 of which are from Burgwedel which
is right in the larger Hannover (city) area. One is named Jürgen Heinrich
Friedrich Dedeke. There is also a Catharine Marie Dorothee Dedeke and
another Jürgen Heinrich Dedeke from the Burgwedel as well. Could be parents
and son? And the 4th is from Lüneburg (also called Jürgen Heinrich!)  This
is the website :

       http://app.staatsarchive.niedersachsen.de/findbuch/

There are 3  choices.  The Hannover one is usually shown so leave  it there
and click on Abschicken.  On the next page, go to Index which is in the
middle line.  Then fill in Dedeke in  the box and choose Nach Personen and
click on Suche Starten.  It will bring up the 4 Dedeke people.  Then  if you
click on the number at the end  of the line (like 1402), that will tell you
the name of the town that they are coming from.  That is far as I know.  I
think you can  order the emigration records with those numbers (with a fee).
The LDS has some records from Burgwedel.  I was never successful searching
for some of my ancestors so I never ordered records from Hannover. I don't
really read German. Maybe, you can figure it out!
   Where did Frederich and Margaret marry?  Here or in Germany?
Barbara




on 2/20/03 4:32 PM, Patricia Knight at pknight1(a)fidnet.com wrote:

> Fredrich Dedeke states on obit and church records that he was from Hanover,
> Germany.  I don't know much else about them before the Waterloo, IL area.
> 
> I will check the LDS again.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Pat
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Barbara Stewart" <raymondg(a)attbi.com>
> To: <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
> Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 11:12 AM
> Subject: Re: [HN] Lonnemann Lengerich
> 
> 
>> Hello Patricia,
>> Is there any chance that the  FRIEDERICH CHRISTIAN DEDEKE  born in
>> 1829 in Frille, Westfalen, Prussia could be your ancestor?  It is on the
> LDS
>> website.  Do you have birth and marriage dates for your people?
>> Barbara
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> on 2/20/03 9:24 AM, Patricia Knight at pknight1(a)fidnet.com wrote:
>> 
>>> This is a very interesting discussion...low and high German. My mother
> often
>>> spoke of her family's dislike for one side of the family and said that
> they
>>> spoke low German and the other side high German. I don't think she knew
> what
>>> was meant but, took it to mean ...demeaning in nature.
>>> 
>>> My real question is this...my gggrandmother from Hanover...in her obit ,
> it
>>> stated that she was from Leadwich Dres, Hanover ...she died in Waterloo,
> IL.
>>> This might be the area (Lengerich) that they wrote...I am just grasping
> at
>>> straws since I have been told there is no such place.
>>> 
>>> Would this be the area of Hanover....crossing my fingers....that she
> could
>>> have been from Lengerich ?????
>>> 
>>> The surnames involved were Griemel from Grossen Linden , Hessen, Germany
> and
>>> Dedeke , Schmidt , Spellmeyer\Spellmeier from Hanover.
>>> 
>>> The church that they belonged to all spoke German in the 1850\1900 time
>>> frame in Waterloo, IL.  They didn't use English in their services until
>>> about 1910. She was Margaret Schroeder and her husband was Fredrich
> Dedeke
>>> both born in Hanover.
>>> 
>>> Just hoping that I can locate the area of their birth.
>>> 
>>> Thanks
>>> 
>>> Pat
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Teresa McMillin" <teresamcmillin(a)attbi.com>
>>> To: <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 10:04 PM
>>> Subject: RE: [HN] Lonnemann Lengerich
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> Thanks for your help, Werner!
>>>> 
>>>> Teresa
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: hannover-l-admin(a)genealogy.net
>>>> [mailto:hannover-l-admin(a)genealogy.net]On Behalf Of Werner Honkomp
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 11:25 AM
>>>> To: hannover-l(a)genealogy.net
>>>> Subject: RE: [HN] Lonnemann Lengerich
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Hello Teresa,
>>>> there is not a Steinkamp but some Stein and two Lonnemann:
>>>> 
>>>> - Lonnemann Johann Rudolph, born about 1810 in Gersten, parish
>>> St.Benedictus
>>>> Lengerich(Lingen county)
>>>> no married Heuerlingssohn(son of a Heuermann), emigrated 1840
>>>> 
>>>> - Lonnemann Anna Maria, born 22.Sep.1844 in Bregenbeke, parish
> Lengerich,
>>>> emigrated 1866,
>>>> parents: Heuermann Johann Berard Lonnemann and Anna Christina Kuhl
>>>> 
>>>> That's all,
>>>> Werner
>>>> 
>>>>> Hi Werner,
>>>> 
>>>>> I noticed your reference to the emigrants book of the former Landkreis
>>>>> Lingen.  Were there any STEINKAMP's or LONNEMAN's who emigrated from
>>> that
>>>>> area?
>>>> 
>>>>> Thanks for your help!
>>>> 
>>>>> Teresa
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Hannover-L mailing list
>>>> Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
>>>> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Hannover-L mailing list
>>>> Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
>>>> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Hannover-L mailing list
>>> Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
>>> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Hannover-L mailing list
>> Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
>> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l
>> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Hannover-L mailing list
> Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l



Re: [HN] Lengerich - Hannover

Date: 2003/02/21 10:36:34
From: Hans Peter Albers <320097756779-0001(a)t-online.de>

Barbara Stewart schrieb:

> Perhaps you can find something that sounds like the name of Leadwich Dres.  
  Maybe someone was guessing at the spelling:

  I will try it, but it would be one work, if Patricia goes first back to her  
  source, and tells the "Lesarten", what means different possible redings of
  "Leadwich Dres",taken from in best case the original text.

> Also, I think that Lengerich in Emsland would be in the Kingdom of Hannover.

  You are right, even there are only about ten km the border, it`s on the other  
 side of the border. One always should control, if the map in the mind is still  
 right.  

> Also, there are  times when someone lists their origin and they say
> Hannover, they do actually mean the city.  Maybe the Leadwich Dres was an
> region or area in the city???

If it was the quarter name, one can find those on most city-maps; sometimes in 
aspecial little map anyway for the overview, sometimes written in a liitle bit 
diagonal way across the area. But will not find them in the abc-register, because 
for today`s orientation you only need the street names as there are no visible 
borders between the quarters anymore, when the town grew together. If you got a 
town map try this. But it may be, those names aren´t shown any more at all.

If you are doing research in the" Staatsarchiv"s there may be interesting for you 
that these days also the Hamburg Staatsarchiv is online reacheable and you can 
see, what they have got there. That`s almost the same function as the"Findbuch" 
of Hanover. I got this address: 

http://fhh.hamburg.de/stadt/Aktuell/behoerden/staatsarchiv/start.html.

best wishes for today                          Hans Peter Albers 



Re: [HN] Lonnemann Lengerich

Date: 2003/02/21 15:53:22
From: Wilfried Petersen <Wilfried.Petersen(a)t-online.de>

Hello Pat and Barbara,
Frille and Petershagen were not in the former Kingdom of Hannover but in the prussian province of Westphalia. But the border is only in a distance of few kilometers. 
Greetings
Wilfried

"Barbara Stewart" <raymondg(a)attbi.com> schrieb:
> Hi Pat,
>     Frille is very near to the city of Petershagen. I do think that would
> have been in the kingdom of Hannover.  The city of Hannover is not that far
> away.  



[HN] Rehburg & Minden 1803

Date: 2003/02/21 15:57:25
From: Doug Plowman <dplowman(a)newnorth.net>

Hello:
    The marriage record in 1825 from Rehburg Evangelical Church, says my
great great grandfather  Ludwig Mackeben was born in 1803 in Minden, son of
Ludwig MACKEBEN  and Dorothea WEGNER. In 1825 he married Katharina NORDMEYER
in Rehburg. I have searched the Minden Evangelical church books and could
not find the birth record.
 I know the Mackeben surname is found mainly around Rehburg and was told the
surname goes back to the 1600's in that area.

Was there a census for that time period? What historical events were going
on in that area around 1800's as I am trying to determine where else to
look? I know there was some relationship with the town of Eilvese as I have
some old letters from the 1940's and the surname was Wegner but I have not
been able to determine the relationship other than "cousin" as signed in the
letter.
 Does anyone recognize the surnames?
I know that Nordmeyer is from the Rehburg area. Kathrina died in 1859 and
Ludwig
married Catharina Louisa Marie DUNKER from Schneeren and had 2 known
children with her. Ludwig died in November 1865 shortly after the birth of
my great grandfather's birth Ludwig.

I know that Minden also referred to a district or kreis that included more
than the town of Minden.
Thanks for the help.

Doug Plowman





[HN] Charbonier or Schanbonier

Date: 2003/02/21 16:21:40
From: Onegeneration <Onegeneration(a)aol.com>

Marilyn,

I have the spelling possibly 2 ways.  Marriage certificate says Charbonier, 
but family has suggested it could be Schanbonier, just started this line so 
am not sure.

She was born 14 April 1841 Hanover, Appershausen, Germany, came to this 
country about 1857, she came alone and went to work for a women in NY.  She 
cried every night because she was so homesick.

She married Henry Frederick Blume, they lived in Oak Park, IL for a time, and 
later moved to Berlin?Otoe Nebraska.

Henry was also born in Germany, 22 April 1836, but do not have a clue as to 
where he was born.

diane


[HN] French port Marseilles

Date: 2003/02/21 17:23:58
From: Doug Plowman <dplowman(a)newnorth.net>

    Good morning:
         One of my  Hannover ancestors from the Rehburg area used the port
of Marseilles, France to depart from Europe to come to America. The time
period was the late 1850's. Why would they go to the port of Marseilles
instead of Bremen or Hamburg?  Does anyone have the statistics of German
emmigrants leaving the port of Marseilles?

Thanks

Doug




Re: [HN] PLATT not in Grafenwöhr!

Date: 2003/02/21 17:30:20
From: Vahlbruch <klaus-moni-vahlbruch(a)t-online.de>

Fred Rump schrieb:

> While on the topic - while serving in the US army in Germany in the
> late 50s and while on maneuvers down either at Grafenwöhr or
> Wildflecken in Franconia, I went with two buddies to see if we
> couldn't locate a farmer where we could buy some sausage or other non-
> c-ration food. Gi's would know what I'm talking about.
> 
> Anyway Privates Freeman and Artz were both from Pennsylvania Dutch
> country. Since I could speak fluent German they had just came along
> to help me carry anything I might be able to organize for our squad.
> I had a hell of a time understanding the farmer I was talking to.
> Suddenly the both of them joined into the conversation and now "I"
> didn't know what anyone was talking about. I was the foreigner in
> Germany as these two used their PA Dutch to have a great conversation
> with the farmer. We came away with lots of good stuff (a chunk of
> ham, some sausages, a loaf of bread and cheese) which we purchased
> from the man.

> We were all stationed in Schweinfurt and I got to understand the
> local lingo better over time. 
> 
> Later one of our PA Dutch friends had travelled north to Holland and
> reported that he also got along quite well with the locals. It didn't
> work that way with hochdeutsch though.
> 
> Memories. I wonder where my buddies are now.
> 
> Fred
*****************************************************************
Hi folks, hi Fred!

Anything you wrote is quite correct, but SCHWEINFURT, GRAFENWOER don´t
lay in the the region of germany where people speak PLATTDeutsch. As
you said it is Franconia.
Than you mentioned your Dutch freinds and Holland - that´s much
better. For all who don´t know where PLATTdeusch is spoken: Take a map
of germany, look at the west you´ll see Holland, than to the north up
to Danmark, to the east up to island of Rügen, that´s the region.

In PLATTdeutsch as in HOCHdeutsch there are a lot of dialects.

Klaus (Vahlbruch)



Re: [HN] Lonnemann Lengerich

Date: 2003/02/21 17:31:28
From: Susan Westhoff <subwest(a)attbi.com>

Barbara,
   I tried the Niedersachsen State Archives site that you suggested to
Patricia, however, I had difficulty reading the German. I'm searching for an
emigration listing for Henry Stage (b 1830) who emigrated in 1851 with his
mother and sister.
   I think this site is a good suggestion, but can I assume if my ancestor
is not on the list that he emigrated elsewhere?
Susan


----- Original Message -----
From: "Barbara Stewart" <raymondg(a)attbi.com>
To: <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
Sent: Friday, February 21, 2003 12:13 AM
Subject: Re: [HN] Lonnemann Lengerich


Hello again,
      Here's  more to think about.  There is a German website that has a
search directory for emigrants from Hannover, Osnabruck, and Wolfbuttel.
There are records of the necessary permission to emigrate.  I just did a
search and there are 4 Dedecke listed, 3 of which are from Burgwedel which
is right in the larger Hannover (city) area. One is named Jürgen Heinrich
Friedrich Dedeke. There is also a Catharine Marie Dorothee Dedeke and
another Jürgen Heinrich Dedeke from the Burgwedel as well. Could be parents
and son? And the 4th is from Lüneburg (also called Jürgen Heinrich!)  This
is the website :

       http://app.staatsarchive.niedersachsen.de/findbuch/

There are 3  choices.  The Hannover one is usually shown so leave  it there
and click on Abschicken.  On the next page, go to Index which is in the
middle line.  Then fill in Dedeke in  the box and choose Nach Personen and
click on Suche Starten.  It will bring up the 4 Dedeke people.  Then  if you
click on the number at the end  of the line (like 1402), that will tell you
the name of the town that they are coming from.  That is far as I know.  I
think you can  order the emigration records with those numbers (with a fee).
The LDS has some records from Burgwedel.  I was never successful searching
for some of my ancestors so I never ordered records from Hannover. I don't
really read German. Maybe, you can figure it out!
   Where did Frederich and Margaret marry?  Here or in Germany?
Barbara




on 2/20/03 4:32 PM, Patricia Knight at pknight1(a)fidnet.com wrote:

> Fredrich Dedeke states on obit and church records that he was from
Hanover,
> Germany.  I don't know much else about them before the Waterloo, IL area.
>
> I will check the LDS again.
>
> Thanks
>
> Pat
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Barbara Stewart" <raymondg(a)attbi.com>
> To: <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
> Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 11:12 AM
> Subject: Re: [HN] Lonnemann Lengerich
>
>
>> Hello Patricia,
>> Is there any chance that the  FRIEDERICH CHRISTIAN DEDEKE  born in
>> 1829 in Frille, Westfalen, Prussia could be your ancestor?  It is on the
> LDS
>> website.  Do you have birth and marriage dates for your people?
>> Barbara
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> on 2/20/03 9:24 AM, Patricia Knight at pknight1(a)fidnet.com wrote:
>>
>>> This is a very interesting discussion...low and high German. My mother
> often
>>> spoke of her family's dislike for one side of the family and said that
> they
>>> spoke low German and the other side high German. I don't think she knew
> what
>>> was meant but, took it to mean ...demeaning in nature.
>>>
>>> My real question is this...my gggrandmother from Hanover...in her obit ,
> it
>>> stated that she was from Leadwich Dres, Hanover ...she died in Waterloo,
> IL.
>>> This might be the area (Lengerich) that they wrote...I am just grasping
> at
>>> straws since I have been told there is no such place.
>>>
>>> Would this be the area of Hanover....crossing my fingers....that she
> could
>>> have been from Lengerich ?????
>>>
>>> The surnames involved were Griemel from Grossen Linden , Hessen, Germany
> and
>>> Dedeke , Schmidt , Spellmeyer\Spellmeier from Hanover.
>>>
>>> The church that they belonged to all spoke German in the 1850\1900 time
>>> frame in Waterloo, IL.  They didn't use English in their services until
>>> about 1910. She was Margaret Schroeder and her husband was Fredrich
> Dedeke
>>> both born in Hanover.
>>>
>>> Just hoping that I can locate the area of their birth.
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>> Pat
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Teresa McMillin" <teresamcmillin(a)attbi.com>
>>> To: <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 10:04 PM
>>> Subject: RE: [HN] Lonnemann Lengerich
>>>
>>>
>>>> Thanks for your help, Werner!
>>>>
>>>> Teresa
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: hannover-l-admin(a)genealogy.net
>>>> [mailto:hannover-l-admin(a)genealogy.net]On Behalf Of Werner Honkomp
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 11:25 AM
>>>> To: hannover-l(a)genealogy.net
>>>> Subject: RE: [HN] Lonnemann Lengerich
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hello Teresa,
>>>> there is not a Steinkamp but some Stein and two Lonnemann:
>>>>
>>>> - Lonnemann Johann Rudolph, born about 1810 in Gersten, parish
>>> St.Benedictus
>>>> Lengerich(Lingen county)
>>>> no married Heuerlingssohn(son of a Heuermann), emigrated 1840
>>>>
>>>> - Lonnemann Anna Maria, born 22.Sep.1844 in Bregenbeke, parish
> Lengerich,
>>>> emigrated 1866,
>>>> parents: Heuermann Johann Berard Lonnemann and Anna Christina Kuhl
>>>>
>>>> That's all,
>>>> Werner
>>>>
>>>>> Hi Werner,
>>>>
>>>>> I noticed your reference to the emigrants book of the former Landkreis
>>>>> Lingen.  Were there any STEINKAMP's or LONNEMAN's who emigrated from
>>> that
>>>>> area?
>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for your help!
>>>>
>>>>> Teresa
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Hannover-L mailing list
>>>> Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
>>>> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>
>>>
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>>
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>
>
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[HN] research names

Date: 2003/02/21 17:48:19
From: Susan Westhoff <subwest(a)attbi.com>

I'm searching:
      HENRY J. AHRENS, (b April 3, 1838) in Gross Algermissen Amt Hildesheim, emigrated 1857.
      JOHANN GENTEMANN (1804)
      GERTRUDE BOEGEL (1809)
      also:
      HENRY STAGE (b Aug 29, 1830), emigrated 1851.

Susan Westhoff


RE: [HN] research names

Date: 2003/02/21 18:14:03
From: Roger Downey <rdowney(a)excite.com>

































[HN] cole camp, mo. who was it?

Date: 2003/02/21 18:27:06
From: gutt morgan <guttmorgan(a)hotmail.com>


I rember reading some postings. Perhaps it was another list. I deleted so much. Looking for someone not directly related to Colebank of the east coast.and the midwest. i will get more specific when i get back later.
Summer,  patterson, ackers,many others



_________________________________________________________________




[HN] re: surnames: AHRENS, GENTEMANN, KIRSCH, BOEGEL also STAGE

Date: 2003/02/21 19:09:21
From: Susan Westhoff <subwest(a)attbi.com>

I'm researching:
   HENRY J, AHRENS  b. Apr. 3, 1838 in Gross Algermissen Amt Hildesheim, Hannover
   CHRISTOP AHRENS b. abt 1801
   MARIA ANNA KIRSCH b. abt 1796
   MARIA ANNA GENTEMANN b Apr 7, 1839
   JOHANN GENTEMANN b 1804    
   GERTRUDE BOEGEL b 1809
also:
   HENRY STAGE b Aug 29, 1830

Susan Westhoff
subwest(a)attbi.com


[HN] re: surnames: AHRENS, GENTEMANN, KIRSCH, BOEGEL also STAGE

Date: 2003/02/21 19:14:42
From: Roger Downey <rdowney(a)excite.com>


































Re: [HN] PLATT not in Grafenwöhr!

Date: 2003/02/21 20:15:52
From: Fred Rump <fredrump(a)earthlink.net>

On 21 Feb 2003 at 17:30, Vahlbruch wrote:

> Fred Rump schrieb:
>
> > While on the topic - while serving in the US army in Germany in the
> > late 50s and while on maneuvers down either at Grafenwöhr or
> > Wildflecken in Franconia, I went with two buddies to see if we
> > couldn't locate a farmer where we could buy some sausage or other
> > non- c-ration food. Gi's would know what I'm talking about.
> folks, hi Fred!
>
> Anything you wrote is quite correct, but SCHWEINFURT, GRAFENWOER don´t
> lay in the the region of germany where people speak PLATTDeutsch. As
> you said it is Franconia.

Did I say anything about platt?

>Than you mentioned your Dutch freinds and
> Holland - that´s much better. For all who don´t know where PLATTdeusch
> is spoken: Take a map of germany, look at the west you´ll see Holland,
> than to the north up to Danmark, to the east up to island of Rügen,
> that´s the region.

The PA Dutch language is old German mixed in with some old and new
English. As hochdeutsch is modern, niederdeutsch is not. It is much
older and more in tune with what the German emigrants to Pennsylvania
brought with them in the early 18th century. The Mennonites and the
old order Amish people have tried to preserve their culture and
religion for almost 300 years and have done a pretty good job of it.
They do not speak platt but rather a rhenish and more south-western
dialect which reflects their origins in Germany.

Fred

4788 Corian Court
Naples, FL 34114
239-775-7838; 239-269-4781 (cell)
FredRump(a)earthlink.net





Re: [HN] Charbonier or Schanbonier

Date: 2003/02/21 21:12:01
From: mstulken <mstulken(a)discover-net.net>

And I realized as I watched my message go off the computer screen--I left the
"h" out and spelled it Carbonier.  Sorry.  Yes, if she was born in Germany and
married a German man, it's unlikely she's French.  Any information on her and
her husband's death certificates?  I've struck out 100% with those in my own
family, but others have had success.

Good luck
Marilyn

Onegeneration(a)aol.com wrote:

> Marilyn,
>
> I have the spelling possibly 2 ways.  Marriage certificate says Charbonier,
> but family has suggested it could be Schanbonier, just started this line so
> am not sure.
>
> She was born 14 April 1841 Hanover, Appershausen, Germany, came to this
> country about 1857, she came alone and went to work for a women in NY.  She
> cried every night because she was so homesick.
>
> She married Henry Frederick Blume, they lived in Oak Park, IL for a time, and
> later moved to Berlin?Otoe Nebraska.
>
> Henry was also born in Germany, 22 April 1836, but do not have a clue as to
> where he was born.
>
> diane
>
> _______________________________________________
> Hannover-L mailing list
> Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l



Re: [HN] cole camp, mo. who was it?

Date: 2003/02/21 22:43:22
From: SHAR1313 <SHAR1313(a)aol.com>

I did a fair amount of research on Kroeger. We settled in Cole, MO which is 
now Jefferson City MO.  I have a fair amount of info thanks to the help from 
some wonderful gentlemen on this list.  Cole, MO was actually a railway depot 
in Cole County.  Let me know if I"m the one you are looking for. 
Sharon Kroeger Howes


Re: [HN] Charbonier or Schanbonier

Date: 2003/02/21 22:51:15
From: Hans Peter Albers <320097756779-0001(a)t-online.de>

Onegeneration(a)aol.com schrieb:

> She was born 14 April 1841 Hanover, Appershausen, Germany, came to this 
> country about 1857, she came alone and went to work for a women in NY.  She 
> cried every night because she was so homesick.

I could find no "Appershausen" in Hannover or surroundings. Everything starting 
with "App..." is anywhere in the south. I suggest you try to find your anchestor 

in 27239 A b b e n h a u s e n, which is part of Twistringen. There is a Ltherian 

and Catholic church. I give you both adddresses:

Lutherian: Evangelische Gemeinde, Mrs.Dorothea Haspelmath-Finalli, Pastorin, 
Bahnhofstr.44, 27329 Twistringen, Tel, 04243 / 3969

Catholic: Katholische Pfarrämter, Am Kirchhof 7, 27239 Twistringen, Tel. 04243 / 
1879

I forgot, that is in the former Kingdom of Hanover, about 50 km south of Bremen

Hope that will success                     Hans Peter Albers




[HN] Fw: Re: [OL]Plattdeutsch language

Date: 2003/02/21 23:04:48
From: Werner Honkomp <Werner.Honkomp(a)t-online.de>

--- HIER BEGINNT DIE WEITERGELEITETE NACHRICHT ------------------------------
    Von: HeikoAhlers(a)t-online.de (Heiko Ahlers)
  Datum: 21.02.2003, 19:36:00
Betreff: Re: [OL]Plattdeutsch language

Hello,
as Bob put it, Platt is a daughter of the Saxon dialects, surely also influenced - dependent on the region, by Frisian, Danish, Jutisch and other neighboring languages.
And, yes it is true that Platt was the 'lingua franca' of the Hanse League, all over northern Europe, from London to Russia, it was at least known by most sailors, tradesmen, etc. You can still find remnants of it today in, e.g., the English sailors' language.
Later, when the Hanse lost it's influence (espeicially the Dutch took over), Platt lost much of it's importance.

Bob stated that 'Platt' = 'Low' derived from the lowlands. There is another theory saying that Platt means 'simple' (as opposed to 'refined, from the city'. When I today speak of the 'platte land', I would not mean 'lowland' (low is just the normal status of the land, here, and not worth mentioning), but 'out in the country'.

Regards
Heiko from Oldenburg





"George Poch" <gapoch(a)hotmail.com> schrieb:
>
>
> I appreciated Bob Owens letter regarding the Plattdeutsch language. I read
> somewhere that this language was  the predominate language for the
> communication in the once existing Hanseatic League (1300's)  consisting of
> about 200 European cities along coastal areas in its northern part. Can
> someone give more information about the early roots of that language. George
> Poch
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*
> http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
>
>
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--- ENDE DER WEITERGELEITETEN NACHRICHT--------------------------------------


Re: [HN] Charbonier or Schanbonier

Date: 2003/02/22 01:20:37
From: Hans Peter Albers <320097756779-0001(a)t-online.de>

Some additional information: There are a lot of "Blome" but no "Blume" in 
Abbenhausen, I found 36 still living People with Surname "Charbonnier" all over 
the country, even some two or three in Town Hannover. Interested ? H. P. Albers



Re: [HN] Lengerich - Hannover

Date: 2003/02/22 02:03:44
From: george hicks <eddihix(a)email.msn.com>

Patricia, on what boat did your gggrandmother come to America?  My
gggrandparents, Bernard Willer & Gesina Maria Giesen, came to St. Louis in
1853-54 from Lengerich (lengen) and I have not found them listed on any
passenger lists.

George Hicks
Kansas City




----- Original Message -----
From: "Patricia Knight" <pknight1(a)fidnet.com>
To: <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 5:30 PM
Subject: Re: [HN] Lengerich - Hannover


> Hello Werner!
>
> My gggrandmother's name was Margaretha Schroeder b. July 10, 1835 and d.
May
> 26, 1910 in St. Louis , MO.
> Fredrich Dedeke was b. May 14, 1825 and d. April 9, 1900 in Waterloo, IL.
>
> Pat
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Werner Honkomp" <Werner.Honkomp(a)t-online.de>
> To: <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
> Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 12:47 PM
> Subject: Re: [HN] Lengerich - Hannover
>
>
> >
> > > My real question is this...my gggrandmother from Hanover...in her obit
,
> > > it
> > > stated that she was from Leadwich Dres, Hanover ...she died in
Waterloo,
> > > IL.
> > > This might be the area (Lengerich) that they wrote...I am just
grasping
> at
> > > straws since I have been told there is no such place.
> >
> > > Would this be the area of Hanover....crossing my fingers....that she
> could
> > > have been from Lengerich ?????
> >
> > What is the first and surname of your gggrandmother?
> >
> > I have some Drees in parish Lengerich.
> >
> > Werner
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Hannover-L mailing list
> > Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> > http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l
> >
>
>
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>



Re: [HN] Lonnemann Lengerich

Date: 2003/02/22 03:09:17
From: Barbara Stewart <raymondg(a)attbi.com>

Hello Susan,

       I tried all 3 places (Hannover, Osnabruck, and Wolfbuttel and I did
not find the name of Henry Stage either.  However, by doing a search on the
LDS website for only the last name of Stage, I found that there  are  many
ways to spell Stage.  So I did another search using only the  first 3
letters (STA), I came upon many persons with the name of Stagge in the
archives of Osnabruck.  In fact there are 4 persons with the name of
Heinrich in it.  It is possible that is the people or person you may be
looking for.  The people had to get permission to travel (like a passport)
and Osnabruck was one of the places to apply for that.  Now, the problem
is, if you click on the number at the right, it leads to a number with a
town listed with it.  Unfortunately, the Osnabruck site only gives the first
3 letters of the town (or none at all).  Then, if you click on the
Gliederung, that brings you to the list of towns. I would conclude that the
3 Heinrich Stagge names (#6239, 6340, 6241) would belong to Kirchspiel
Lengerich, whatever that  means, But there is the Frer in the line which
would indicate Freren.  There are  two Lengerichs.  One  is closer to Freren
and the other is farther north.  I really don't  know which is right.
 
        When I searched for my Gugelmeyers I found nothing in the index and
I remember that I did write to them to ask if there indeed was no one by
that name.  If you click on Vorwort, it has a long narrative in German which
a online translator tells you this:

In English: 

To the important socialhistorical phenomena 19. Century belongs the
emigration movement from German territories, predominantly directed toward
North America. The following listing seizes the emigrations between 1825 and
1870 from the Landdrosteibezirk at that time Osnabrueck, thus the today's
districts Osnabrueck, Ems country and county Bentheim as well as the city
Osnabrueck, so far it? usually by distribution of a consent - became on
record. How many persons emigrated beyond that without official permission,
is unknown. Estimations go by that their number corresponds approximately to
those of the legal emigrants. Under emigration here the?klassische does not
only become? Case of the departure abroad overseas understood, but each
separating from the hannoverschen and/or starting from 1866 Prussian subject
federation, even if another European or even German state were the goal.
Excluding documents of public records Osnabrueck were evaluated, in
individual such the middle (Landdrostei) and lower national management level
(offices, Vogteien) as well as city archives cared for by public records
(among other things Osnabrueck, Bram, Lingen, new house, Quakenbrueck). The
arrangement (classification) depends on the administrative organization of
the Landdrosteibezirks Osnabrueck in the second half 19. Century and cover
the individual offices, which are divided after Kirchspielen for their part
beside the four independent cities Lingen, Melle, Osnabrueck and
Quakenbrueck. Within the Kirchspiele the emigrants are alphabetically
listed. Those the documents regarding the individual emigrant inferred data
were arranged with the help of ten positions comprehensive patterns: (1)
name and residence. (2) date of birth or age and of the residence deviating
place of birth. (3) occupation. (4) name of parents. (5) Mitauswandernde
relative with indication of the distorting shank relationship such as Mrs.,
brother, daughter, son etc.. (6) denomination. (7) an emigration goal. (8)
emigration time; mentioned the exact date, if necessary also only the year,
is the passport distribution, consent distribution or the departure from the
residence. (9) fortune. (10) remarks; here an explanation in terms of
catchwords of the emigration reasons takes place, for example via data
concerning the family or economic situation. The Osnabruecker archivist
Herbert Budde took over the examination and evaluation of the documents; it
was final 1982. The data input took place in the context of several
work-providing measures. The principal purpose of the emigrants from the
Osnabruecker area the USA formed, with far distance most frequently as
destinations were called for Baltimore, Cincinnati, New York and pc. Louis.
Against it Milwaukee go the city remarkably rarely like also the Federal
State Wisconsin at all into action, which actually a special emphasis of the
German new settlement represented. Osnabruecker emigrated themselves also to
Argentina, Australia and Brazil, isolated intended one even, to Chile to
embark Cuba and Netherlands east India. Under the European countries clearly
the Netherlands dominate, whereby it open-remains whether for example
frequently mentioned Amsterdam already formed terminator point of the
emigration or only one stopover before the embarkation to overseas. The
Beschwernisse and dangers of the overseas emigration in 19. Century? at
first on sail later on steam ships? are sufficiently well-known. With hope
for?besseres getting along, always recurring in the documents? took on above
all member of the socially underprivileged layers this venture. With the
Osnabruecker emigrants most frequently job titles meet as?Magd?, or
more?Tageloehner?, which probably permits the conclusion that the majority
of the emigrants came of to the layer dependently in the agriculture of the
persons employed. The craftsmen and the workers were likewise strongly
represented. The Vollstaendigk

     Therefore, if your ancestor's name is not there, it  means they did not
obtain permission to emigrate, they got it somewhere else, or they got out
of Germany illegally. I do not see on the website how to order these
records. I think there is a fee of some sort.  Probably you should write an
email and ask them to help verify what is available. I found an email
address for the Osnabruck archives:

      poststelle(a)staatsarchiv-os.niedersachsen.de

   The website for all the archives in Niedersachsen is this:

       http://www.staatsarchive.niedersachsen.de/home/

    The people at the Osnabruck Archives did answer my email when  I wrote
them. They said that there  indeed were no emigrants with the Gugelmeyer
name. Maybe you will have better luck.

Barbara Stewart

 







on 2/21/03 9:33 AM, Susan Westhoff at subwest(a)attbi.com wrote:

> Barbara,
> I tried the Niedersachsen State Archives site that you suggested to
> Patricia, however, I had difficulty reading the German. I'm searching for an
> emigration listing for Henry Stage (b 1830) who emigrated in 1851 with his
> mother and sister.
> I think this site is a good suggestion, but can I assume if my ancestor
> is not on the list that he emigrated elsewhere?
> Susan
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Barbara Stewart" <raymondg(a)attbi.com>
> To: <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
> Sent: Friday, February 21, 2003 12:13 AM
> Subject: Re: [HN] Lonnemann Lengerich
> 
> 
> Hello again,
> Here's  more to think about.  There is a German website that has a
> search directory for emigrants from Hannover, Osnabruck, and Wolfbuttel.
> There are records of the necessary permission to emigrate.  I just did a
> search and there are 4 Dedecke listed, 3 of which are from Burgwedel which
> is right in the larger Hannover (city) area. One is named Jürgen Heinrich
> Friedrich Dedeke. There is also a Catharine Marie Dorothee Dedeke and
> another Jürgen Heinrich Dedeke from the Burgwedel as well. Could be parents
> and son? And the 4th is from Lüneburg (also called Jürgen Heinrich!)  This
> is the website :
> 
> http://app.staatsarchive.niedersachsen.de/findbuch/
> 
> There are 3  choices.  The Hannover one is usually shown so leave  it there
> and click on Abschicken.  On the next page, go to Index which is in the
> middle line.  Then fill in Dedeke in  the box and choose Nach Personen and
> click on Suche Starten.  It will bring up the 4 Dedeke people.  Then  if you
> click on the number at the end  of the line (like 1402), that will tell you
> the name of the town that they are coming from.  That is far as I know.  I
> think you can  order the emigration records with those numbers (with a fee).
> The LDS has some records from Burgwedel.  I was never successful searching
> for some of my ancestors so I never ordered records from Hannover. I don't
> really read German. Maybe, you can figure it out!
> Where did Frederich and Margaret marry?  Here or in Germany?
> Barbara
> 
> 
> 
> 
> on 2/20/03 4:32 PM, Patricia Knight at pknight1(a)fidnet.com wrote:
> 
>> Fredrich Dedeke states on obit and church records that he was from
> Hanover,
>> Germany.  I don't know much else about them before the Waterloo, IL area.
>> 
>> I will check the LDS again.
>> 
>> Thanks
>> 
>> Pat
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Barbara Stewart" <raymondg(a)attbi.com>
>> To: <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
>> Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 11:12 AM
>> Subject: Re: [HN] Lonnemann Lengerich
>> 
>> 
>>> Hello Patricia,
>>> Is there any chance that the  FRIEDERICH CHRISTIAN DEDEKE  born in
>>> 1829 in Frille, Westfalen, Prussia could be your ancestor?  It is on the
>> LDS
>>> website.  Do you have birth and marriage dates for your people?
>>> Barbara
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> on 2/20/03 9:24 AM, Patricia Knight at pknight1(a)fidnet.com wrote:
>>> 
>>>> This is a very interesting discussion...low and high German. My mother
>> often
>>>> spoke of her family's dislike for one side of the family and said that
>> they
>>>> spoke low German and the other side high German. I don't think she knew
>> what
>>>> was meant but, took it to mean ...demeaning in nature.
>>>> 
>>>> My real question is this...my gggrandmother from Hanover...in her obit ,
>> it
>>>> stated that she was from Leadwich Dres, Hanover ...she died in Waterloo,
>> IL.
>>>> This might be the area (Lengerich) that they wrote...I am just grasping
>> at
>>>> straws since I have been told there is no such place.
>>>> 
>>>> Would this be the area of Hanover....crossing my fingers....that she
>> could
>>>> have been from Lengerich ?????
>>>> 
>>>> The surnames involved were Griemel from Grossen Linden , Hessen, Germany
>> and
>>>> Dedeke , Schmidt , Spellmeyer\Spellmeier from Hanover.
>>>> 
>>>> The church that they belonged to all spoke German in the 1850\1900 time
>>>> frame in Waterloo, IL.  They didn't use English in their services until
>>>> about 1910. She was Margaret Schroeder and her husband was Fredrich
>> Dedeke
>>>> both born in Hanover.
>>>> 
>>>> Just hoping that I can locate the area of their birth.
>>>> 
>>>> Thanks
>>>> 
>>>> Pat
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Teresa McMillin" <teresamcmillin(a)attbi.com>
>>>> To: <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 10:04 PM
>>>> Subject: RE: [HN] Lonnemann Lengerich
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> Thanks for your help, Werner!
>>>>> 
>>>>> Teresa
>>>>> 
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: hannover-l-admin(a)genealogy.net
>>>>> [mailto:hannover-l-admin(a)genealogy.net]On Behalf Of Werner Honkomp
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 11:25 AM
>>>>> To: hannover-l(a)genealogy.net
>>>>> Subject: RE: [HN] Lonnemann Lengerich
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Hello Teresa,
>>>>> there is not a Steinkamp but some Stein and two Lonnemann:
>>>>> 
>>>>> - Lonnemann Johann Rudolph, born about 1810 in Gersten, parish
>>>> St.Benedictus
>>>>> Lengerich(Lingen county)
>>>>> no married Heuerlingssohn(son of a Heuermann), emigrated 1840
>>>>> 
>>>>> - Lonnemann Anna Maria, born 22.Sep.1844 in Bregenbeke, parish
>> Lengerich,
>>>>> emigrated 1866,
>>>>> parents: Heuermann Johann Berard Lonnemann and Anna Christina Kuhl
>>>>> 
>>>>> That's all,
>>>>> Werner
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Hi Werner,
>>>>> 
>>>>>> I noticed your reference to the emigrants book of the former Landkreis
>>>>>> Lingen.  Were there any STEINKAMP's or LONNEMAN's who emigrated from
>>>> that
>>>>>> area?
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Thanks for your help!
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Teresa
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Hannover-L mailing list
>>>>> Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
>>>>> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Hannover-L mailing list
>>>>> Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
>>>>> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Hannover-L mailing list
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>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
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> 
> 
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> 
> 
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Re: [HN] Lonnemann Lengerich

Date: 2003/02/22 03:47:33
From: Jim Eggert <EggertJ(a)crosswinds.net>

on 2/20/03, Barbara Stewart <raymondg(a)attbi.com> wrote:

> Frille is very near to the city of Petershagen. I do think that would
> have been in the kingdom of Hannover.  The city of Hannover is not that far
> away.  The LDS has church records for Frille in the 1800's.

Frille was on the boundary between Westfalen and Schaumburg-Lippe.  The
larger part, including the church, was in Schaumburg-Lippe.  The other part
was called Preussisch Frille, in the Prussian province of Westfalen
(Westphalia).  Frille was never in the Kingdom of Hannover.

For a good 1912 map of the area, see
http://www.genealogy.net/reg/NSAC/SLP/map.html

-- 
=Jim Eggert  EggertJ(a)crosswinds.net



Re: [HN] French port Marseilles

Date: 2003/02/22 03:56:25
From: Barbara Stewart <raymondg(a)attbi.com>

Hi, 
     Have  you ever used the Immigrant Passenger lists on
        http://istg.rootsweb.com/
  Usually Germans left from L'havre if they were leaving  from France. I
don't see that Marseilles is listed as a port. If you've never used that
site, you might do a search there.

Barbara Stewart



on 2/21/03 9:16 AM, Doug Plowman at dplowman(a)newnorth.net wrote:

> Good morning:
> One of my  Hannover ancestors from the Rehburg area used the port
> of Marseilles, France to depart from Europe to come to America. The time
> period was the late 1850's. Why would they go to the port of Marseilles
> instead of Bremen or Hamburg?  Does anyone have the statistics of German
> emmigrants leaving the port of Marseilles?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Doug
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Hannover-L mailing list
> Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l



[HN] Charbonier

Date: 2003/02/22 06:13:06
From: Onegeneration <Onegeneration(a)aol.com>

Marilyn, 

Yes, I have their dates of death, have been to the cemetery where they are 
buried, but the church didn't have much about them, just what I have.

Diane

Searching Blume, Fastenau, Charbonier, Raven


Re: [HN] re: surnames: AHRENS, GENTEMANN, KIRSCH, BOEGEL also STAGE

Date: 2003/02/22 07:05:42
From: Maureen <mcshelly2(a)msn.com>

I have a younger Henry Ahrens b. ca. 1875-1880 who married Agnes Alvine and
lived in New York and New Jersey.  They had one child, a daughter Evelyn,
who married Louis Casazza.

The Alvines were Swedish and their other daughter, Bessie, also married a
man of Hannover who was my grandfather.

I would be very interested to learn if my Henry, called "Harry," was the son
of your Henry J. Ahrens.

Maureen

----- Original Message -----
From: "Susan Westhoff" <subwest(a)attbi.com>
To: <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
Sent: Friday, February 21, 2003 12:11 PM
Subject: [HN] re: surnames: AHRENS, GENTEMANN, KIRSCH, BOEGEL also STAGE


I'm researching:
   HENRY J, AHRENS  b. Apr. 3, 1838 in Gross Algermissen Amt Hildesheim,
Hannover
   CHRISTOP AHRENS b. abt 1801
   MARIA ANNA KIRSCH b. abt 1796
   MARIA ANNA GENTEMANN b Apr 7, 1839
   JOHANN GENTEMANN b 1804
   GERTRUDE BOEGEL b 1809
also:
   HENRY STAGE b Aug 29, 1830

Susan Westhoff
subwest(a)attbi.com

_______________________________________________
Hannover-L mailing list
Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l


Re: [HN] cole camp, mo. who was it?

Date: 2003/02/22 07:09:58
From: Maureen <mcshelly2(a)msn.com>

It was Robert Owens   Mephisto(a)iland.net
Good luck!
Maureen

----- Original Message -----
From: "gutt morgan" <guttmorgan(a)hotmail.com>
To: <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
Sent: Friday, February 21, 2003 11:27 AM
Subject: [HN] cole camp, mo. who was it?


>
>
> I rember reading some postings. Perhaps it was another list. I deleted so
> much. Looking for someone  not directly related to Colebank of the east
> coast.and the midwest. i will get more specific when i get back later.
> Summer,  patterson, ackers,many others
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Hannover-L mailing list
> Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l
>


[HN] History of "Niederdeutsch" as a language

Date: 2003/02/22 14:13:43
From: Hans Peter Albers <320097756779-0001(a)t-online.de>

Feel a bit sorry, that the interesting reports, sometime narrative, sometimes 
scientifically, about the "Plattdeutsch" stopped a bit. That`s because the pure 
genealogical dates are only the frame, which become life, if this is filled with 
some history. In that direction there were a lot of good and appreciable contri- 
butions. I have another one for the history of the "Niederdeutsch", which i had 
to translate myself, cause there is no one up to yet. So forgive mistakes. I give 
it for safety in both languages:

"Das literarische Leben in Niedersachsen steht vom 13. bis ins 16.Jh.im Zeichen 
des Niederdeutschen, das in dieser Zeit zu einer hochentwickelten Schriftssprache 
wird und in der Geschichtsschreibung (Städtechroniken), Rechtsbüchern, Volkslied 
und Volksbuch (Eulenspiegel, Reinke de Vos) bedeutende Leistungen aufweist. Die 
niederdeutsche Sprache verliert in dieser Zeit an Raum im Gebiet südöstlich des 
Harzes, breitet sich aber weithin im Küstenbereich der Ostsee aus und erobert 
auch Ostfriesland, wo die friesische Sprache bis auf Reste verschwindet."

Translation HPA:
The literary life in Lower Saxony from 13.th to 16th century is in the Sign of 
the "Niederdeutsche", which becomes in this time a highdeveloped written language 
and shows important achievements in hisroriography (chronicles of towns), civil 
codes, folk-song and -writings( for example "Eulenspiegel, Reineke de Vos).The 
"niederdeutsche" speech looses in her spread in this time in the region 
south-east of the "Harz", but gains furthermore in the coast-regions of the 
"Ostsee" and conquers even "Ostfriesland", where the language of the "Friesen" 
vanishes up to some rest.

The source is: Geschichte des Landes Niedersachsen. Ein Überblick. von 
Schnath,Lübbing, Möhmann und Engel, Würzburg: Ploetz-Verlag 1962., Seite 29
So it is not the mewest one, it gives a good summary for the period before the 
Plattdeutsch became the common term for it.

Nice day to all                                 Hans Peter Albers






Re: [HN] History of "Niederdeutsch" as a language

Date: 2003/02/22 15:15:14
From: Vahlbruch <klaus-moni-vahlbruch(a)t-online.de>

Hans Peter Albers schrieb:

> Feel a bit sorry, that the interesting reports, sometime narrative, sometimes
> scientifically, about the "Plattdeutsch" stopped a bit. That`s because the pure
> genealogical dates are only the frame, which become life, if this is filled with
> some history. In that direction there were a lot of good and appreciable contri-
> butions. I have another one for the history of the "Niederdeutsch", which i had
> to translate myself, cause there is no one up to yet. So forgive mistakes. I give
> it for safety in both languages:

*******************************************************
Lieber Hans Peter Albers,
ganz herzlichen Dank für diese und für viele andere Beitäge, kenntnisreich und
engagiert bis ins kleinste Detail.

Dear Hans Peter Albers,
many thanks for all your comments with a lot of facts and engaged up to smales
detail.

Klaus (Vahlbruch)




Re: [HN] Lonnemann Lengerich

Date: 2003/02/22 15:21:28
From: George Soergel <soergelone(a)earthlink.net>

Hello Susan:  The name Stage is of intrust to me. The Stage family I am
close to came from Michigan to Wisconsin.  I can reached at my e-mail
address     soergelone(a)earthlink.net
Yours in Genealogical Research,  George E. Soergel  Milton Wisconsin


> [Original Message]
> From: Susan Westhoff <subwest(a)attbi.com>
> To: <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
> Date: 2/21/2003 12:32:00 PM
> Subject: Re: [HN] Lonnemann Lengerich
>
> Barbara,
>    I tried the Niedersachsen State Archives site that you suggested to
> Patricia, however, I had difficulty reading the German. I'm searching for
an
> emigration listing for Henry Stage (b 1830) who emigrated in 1851 with his
> mother and sister.
>    I think this site is a good suggestion, but can I assume if my ancestor
> is not on the list that he emigrated elsewhere?
> Susan
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Barbara Stewart" <raymondg(a)attbi.com>
> To: <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
> Sent: Friday, February 21, 2003 12:13 AM
> Subject: Re: [HN] Lonnemann Lengerich
>
>
> Hello again,
>       Here's  more to think about.  There is a German website that has a
> search directory for emigrants from Hannover, Osnabruck, and Wolfbuttel.
> There are records of the necessary permission to emigrate.  I just did a
> search and there are 4 Dedecke listed, 3 of which are from Burgwedel which
> is right in the larger Hannover (city) area. One is named Jürgen Heinrich
> Friedrich Dedeke. There is also a Catharine Marie Dorothee Dedeke and
> another Jürgen Heinrich Dedeke from the Burgwedel as well. Could be
parents
> and son? And the 4th is from Lüneburg (also called Jürgen Heinrich!)  This
> is the website :
>
>        http://app.staatsarchive.niedersachsen.de/findbuch/
>
> There are 3  choices.  The Hannover one is usually shown so leave  it
there
> and click on Abschicken.  On the next page, go to Index which is in the
> middle line.  Then fill in Dedeke in  the box and choose Nach Personen and
> click on Suche Starten.  It will bring up the 4 Dedeke people.  Then  if
you
> click on the number at the end  of the line (like 1402), that will tell
you
> the name of the town that they are coming from.  That is far as I know.  I
> think you can  order the emigration records with those numbers (with a
fee).
> The LDS has some records from Burgwedel.  I was never successful searching
> for some of my ancestors so I never ordered records from Hannover. I don't
> really read German. Maybe, you can figure it out!
>    Where did Frederich and Margaret marry?  Here or in Germany?
> Barbara
>
>
>
>
> on 2/20/03 4:32 PM, Patricia Knight at pknight1(a)fidnet.com wrote:
>
> > Fredrich Dedeke states on obit and church records that he was from
> Hanover,
> > Germany.  I don't know much else about them before the Waterloo, IL
area.
> >
> > I will check the LDS again.
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Pat
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Barbara Stewart" <raymondg(a)attbi.com>
> > To: <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
> > Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 11:12 AM
> > Subject: Re: [HN] Lonnemann Lengerich
> >
> >
> >> Hello Patricia,
> >> Is there any chance that the  FRIEDERICH CHRISTIAN DEDEKE  born in
> >> 1829 in Frille, Westfalen, Prussia could be your ancestor?  It is on
the
> > LDS
> >> website.  Do you have birth and marriage dates for your people?
> >> Barbara
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> on 2/20/03 9:24 AM, Patricia Knight at pknight1(a)fidnet.com wrote:
> >>
> >>> This is a very interesting discussion...low and high German. My mother
> > often
> >>> spoke of her family's dislike for one side of the family and said that
> > they
> >>> spoke low German and the other side high German. I don't think she
knew
> > what
> >>> was meant but, took it to mean ...demeaning in nature.
> >>>
> >>> My real question is this...my gggrandmother from Hanover...in her
obit ,
> > it
> >>> stated that she was from Leadwich Dres, Hanover ...she died in
Waterloo,
> > IL.
> >>> This might be the area (Lengerich) that they wrote...I am just
grasping
> > at
> >>> straws since I have been told there is no such place.
> >>>
> >>> Would this be the area of Hanover....crossing my fingers....that she
> > could
> >>> have been from Lengerich ?????
> >>>
> >>> The surnames involved were Griemel from Grossen Linden , Hessen,
Germany
> > and
> >>> Dedeke , Schmidt , Spellmeyer\Spellmeier from Hanover.
> >>>
> >>> The church that they belonged to all spoke German in the 1850\1900
time
> >>> frame in Waterloo, IL.  They didn't use English in their services
until
> >>> about 1910. She was Margaret Schroeder and her husband was Fredrich
> > Dedeke
> >>> both born in Hanover.
> >>>
> >>> Just hoping that I can locate the area of their birth.
> >>>
> >>> Thanks
> >>>
> >>> Pat
> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>> From: "Teresa McMillin" <teresamcmillin(a)attbi.com>
> >>> To: <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
> >>> Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 10:04 PM
> >>> Subject: RE: [HN] Lonnemann Lengerich
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> Thanks for your help, Werner!
> >>>>
> >>>> Teresa
> >>>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: hannover-l-admin(a)genealogy.net
> >>>> [mailto:hannover-l-admin(a)genealogy.net]On Behalf Of Werner Honkomp
> >>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 11:25 AM
> >>>> To: hannover-l(a)genealogy.net
> >>>> Subject: RE: [HN] Lonnemann Lengerich
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Hello Teresa,
> >>>> there is not a Steinkamp but some Stein and two Lonnemann:
> >>>>
> >>>> - Lonnemann Johann Rudolph, born about 1810 in Gersten, parish
> >>> St.Benedictus
> >>>> Lengerich(Lingen county)
> >>>> no married Heuerlingssohn(son of a Heuermann), emigrated 1840
> >>>>
> >>>> - Lonnemann Anna Maria, born 22.Sep.1844 in Bregenbeke, parish
> > Lengerich,
> >>>> emigrated 1866,
> >>>> parents: Heuermann Johann Berard Lonnemann and Anna Christina Kuhl
> >>>>
> >>>> That's all,
> >>>> Werner
> >>>>
> >>>>> Hi Werner,
> >>>>
> >>>>> I noticed your reference to the emigrants book of the former
Landkreis
> >>>>> Lingen.  Were there any STEINKAMP's or LONNEMAN's who emigrated from
> >>> that
> >>>>> area?
> >>>>
> >>>>> Thanks for your help!
> >>>>
> >>>>> Teresa
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> Hannover-L mailing list
> >>>> Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> >>>> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> Hannover-L mailing list
> >>>> Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> >>>> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Hannover-L mailing list
> >>> Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> >>> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Hannover-L mailing list
> >> Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> >> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l
> >>
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Hannover-L mailing list
> > Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> > http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Hannover-L mailing list
> Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Hannover-L mailing list
> Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l




Re: [HN] Stagge Stockum

Date: 2003/02/22 16:01:14
From: Werner Honkomp <Werner.Honkomp(a)t-online.de>

I have found this coincidental: 

Hamburgische Bark Maria Capitän Mühlenrod 1848 from Cuxhaven

Passagierliste für 103 Personen
No. Name  Geburtsort Alter Beruf Mann Frau Kind 

92. G. H. Stagge Stockum 26 Bauer 1. - - 

Please check:  http://www.routes.de/maria.htm

The problem is, we have a lot Stockum two of them in Osnabrück county, as parts of Ankum and Bissendorf.

Werner

> Hello Susan,

>        I tried all 3 places (Hannover, Osnabruck, and Wolfbuttel and I did
> not find the name of Henry Stage either.  However, by doing a search on
> the
> LDS website for only the last name of Stage, I found that there  are  many
> ways to spell Stage.  So I did another search using only the  first 3
> letters (STA), I came upon many persons with the name of Stagge in the
> archives of Osnabruck.  In fact there are 4 persons with the name of
> Heinrich in it.  It is possible that is the people or person you may be
> looking for.  The people had to get permission to travel (like a passport)
> and Osnabruck was one of the places to apply for that.  Now, the problem
> is, if you click on the number at the right, it leads to a number with a
> town listed with it.  Unfortunately, the Osnabruck site only gives the
> first
> 3 letters of the town (or none at all).  Then, if you click on the
> Gliederung, that brings you to the list of towns. I would conclude that
> the
> 3 Heinrich Stagge names (#6239, 6340, 6241) would belong to Kirchspiel
> Lengerich, whatever that  means, But there is the Frer in the line which
> would indicate Freren.  There are  two Lengerichs.  One  is closer to
> Freren
> and the other is farther north. 



[HN] Gentemann & Boegel

Date: 2003/02/22 18:25:57
From: Roger Downey <rdowney(a)excite.com>



































Re: [HN] re: surnames: AHRENS, GENTEMANN, KIRSCH, BOEGEL also STAGE

Date: 2003/02/22 19:47:54
From: Susan Westhoff <subwest(a)attbi.com>

Maureen,
   My Henry J. Ahrens was born in Apr 3, 1838, in Gross Algermissen,
Hildesheim, Germany. He emigrated to Missouri in 1857 through New Orleans,
LA. He married MariaAnna Gentemann in 1864 in St. Peters, MO. He died and is
buried in O'Fallon, MO. I dont know if he ever was in NY or NJ.
Susan

----- Original Message -----
From: "Maureen" <mcshelly2(a)msn.com>
To: <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 12:02 AM
Subject: Re: [HN] re: surnames: AHRENS, GENTEMANN, KIRSCH, BOEGEL also STAGE


> I have a younger Henry Ahrens b. ca. 1875-1880 who married Agnes Alvine
and
> lived in New York and New Jersey.  They had one child, a daughter Evelyn,
> who married Louis Casazza.
>
> The Alvines were Swedish and their other daughter, Bessie, also married a
> man of Hannover who was my grandfather.
>
> I would be very interested to learn if my Henry, called "Harry," was the
son
> of your Henry J. Ahrens.
>
> Maureen
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Susan Westhoff" <subwest(a)attbi.com>
> To: <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
> Sent: Friday, February 21, 2003 12:11 PM
> Subject: [HN] re: surnames: AHRENS, GENTEMANN, KIRSCH, BOEGEL also STAGE
>
>
> I'm researching:
>    HENRY J, AHRENS  b. Apr. 3, 1838 in Gross Algermissen Amt Hildesheim,
> Hannover
>    CHRISTOP AHRENS b. abt 1801
>    MARIA ANNA KIRSCH b. abt 1796
>    MARIA ANNA GENTEMANN b Apr 7, 1839
>    JOHANN GENTEMANN b 1804
>    GERTRUDE BOEGEL b 1809
> also:
>    HENRY STAGE b Aug 29, 1830
>
> Susan Westhoff
> subwest(a)attbi.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> Hannover-L mailing list
> Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l
>
> _______________________________________________
> Hannover-L mailing list
> Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l




Re: [HN] Lonnemann Lengerich

Date: 2003/02/22 20:48:49
From: Fred Rump <fredrump(a)earthlink.net>

On 21 Feb 2003 at 19:09, Barbara Stewart wrote:

> the name of Heinrich in it.  It is possible that is the people or
> person you may be looking for.  The people had to get permission to
> travel (like a passport) and Osnabruck was one of the places to apply
> for that.  Now, the problem is, if you click on the number at the
> right, it leads to a number with a town listed with it.
> Unfortunately, the Osnabruck site only gives the first 3 letters of
> the town (or none at all).


Please at least attempt to cut some of the previous mail out of your
responses. Remember, everything you send winds up in an archive and
takes up space. Future searches will also repeat the finds again and
again for the same information. Make it a little easier for the folks
who research after you.

As to the on-line Findbuch at the Lowersaxon Archive - one can order
the relevant found source documents in a variety of ways from the
archive. I prefer having it filmed. Cost then comes to only .15 Eur
per page plus a small setup charge.

The data itself in the Auswanderquellen for Osnabrück is
questionable. I found numerous people who lived their entire lives in
the area yet are found in this resource as if they had some
connection to emigration. I have a feeling the sources are more
general in nature and are not only connected to emigration permits
etc.

Fred

  4788 Corian Court
Naples, FL 34114
239-775-7838; 239-269-4781 (cell)
FredRump(a)earthlink.net





Re: [HN] Stagge Stockum/Osnabrück

Date: 2003/02/22 21:54:21
From: Fred Rump <fredrump(a)earthlink.net>

On 22 Feb 2003 at 14:40, Werner Honkomp wrote:

> I have found this coincidental:
>
> Hamburgische Bark Maria Capitän Mühlenrod 1848 from Cuxhaven
>
> Passagierliste für 103 Personen
> No. Name  Geburtsort Alter Beruf Mann Frau Kind
>
> 92. G. H. Stagge Stockum 26 Bauer 1. - -

The name most likely was Stagge und the Osnabrück archives have the
following source material on various Stagge folks:

26582 = Bestell-Nr.: Staatsarchiv Osnabrück,  Rep 350 Wit Nr. 318
Stagge, Anne Marie 26582
Stagge, Johann Heinrich 26582

27890 = Bestell-Nr.: Staatsarchiv Osnabrück,  Rep 450 Wit Nr. 86
Stagge, Hermann 27890
Stagge, männl. 27890
Stagge, weibl. 27890

27891 = Bestell-Nr.: Staatsarchiv Osnabrück,  Rep 335 Nr. 807
Stagge, Hermann Friedrich Wilhelm 27891
Stagge, männl. + weibl. 27891

27892 = Bestell-Nr.: Staatsarchiv Osnabrück,  Rep 350 Wit Nr. 2080
Stagge, Hermann Friedrich Wilhelm 27892
Stagge, Johann Friedrich 27892
Stagge, Marie Louise 27892

6239 = Bestell-Nr.: Staatsarchiv Osnabrück,  Rep 335 Nr. 804
Stagge, Johann Heinrich 6239

6240 = Bestell-Nr.: Staatsarchiv Osnabrück,  Rep 350 Frer Nr. 62
Stagge, Johann Heinrich 6240

6241 = Bestell-Nr.: Staatsarchiv Osnabrück,  Rep 350 Lin Nr. 562
Stagge, Johann Heinrich 6241

19931 = Bestell-Nr.: Staatsarchiv Osnabrück,  Rep 335 Nr. 792
Stagge, männl. 19931

21338 = Bestell-Nr.: Staatsarchiv Osnabrück,  Rep 360 OS Nr. 9
Stagge, weibl. 21338


Fred

PS the number following the name is strictly a location record where
the source data is given. 4788 Corian Court
Naples, FL 34114
239-775-7838; 239-269-4781 (cell)
FredRump(a)earthlink.net





Re: [HN] Stagge Stockum/Osnabrück

Date: 2003/02/22 22:38:07
From: BZanon <BZanon(a)aol.com>

Good day listmembers,
I'm curious.  I've been trying to find out some ancestral information about 
my cousin's grandfather, but to no avail.   How does one go about getting the 
info as in the message from Fred Rump below.  It appears to be passenger list 
info but not from Ellis Island.  I'd surely like some assistance with my 
brick wall -- EBERHART KUHLMAN & his wife SOPHIA DIANA HARDE -- their 
information as I know it below ~~

Descendants of Eberhart Henry Kuhlman
                    
    1   KUHLMAN, Eberhart Henry b: December 18, 1833 in Hanover, Hannover, 
Germany [Now Niedersachsen]     
d: June 25, 1919 Toledo, Lucas, County, Ohio
..      +HARDE, Sophia Diana    b: March 29, 1836 in Osnabruck Stadt, 
Hannover, Preussen @ 8:00 a.m.  
m: June 25, 1857 in Salem Lutheran Church, Toledo, Lucas County, Ohio   
d: September 9, 1895 Toledo, Lucas, County, Ohio

Thank you in advance,
Beverly Mack Zanon


In a message dated 2/22/2003 2:56:02 PM Central Standard Time, 
fredrump(a)earthlink.net writes:

> 
> >Hamburgische Bark Maria Capitän Mühlenrod 1848 from Cuxhaven
> >
> >Passagierliste für 103 Personen
> >No. Name  Geburtsort Alter Beruf Mann Frau Kind 
> >
> >92. G. H. Stagge Stockum 26 Bauer 1. - - 
> 
> The name most likely was Stagge und the Osnabrück archives have the 
> following source material on various Stagge folks:
> 
> 26582 = Bestell-Nr.: Staatsarchiv Osnabrück,  Rep 350 Wit Nr. 318
> Stagge, Anne Marie 26582
> Stagge, Johann Heinrich 26582 
> 
> 27890 = Bestell-Nr.: Staatsarchiv Osnabrück,  Rep 450 Wit Nr. 86
> Stagge, Hermann 27890 
> Stagge, männl. 27890 
> Stagge, weibl. 27890
> 
>

Re: [HN] Stagge Stockum/Osnabrück

Date: 2003/02/22 23:47:05
From: Barbara Stewart <raymondg(a)attbi.com>

Hello,
      You can  go to this website which allows you to search for persons who
got permission to emigrate  from 3  places: Hannover, Osnabruck, and
Wolfbuttel.  
        http://app.staatsarchive.niedersachsen.de/findbuch/

     On that page, if you want Hannover, it is already situated on the right
choice, so click on  Abschicken.  Then, on the next page go to Index.  Next,
fill in the box with the surname of the person and choose Nach personen.
Then click on suche.  I already did Kuhlmann  and  you will find a number by
that name.  Eberhard is not one of them, but there are many Heinrichs. Click
on the number at  the far right and it will give  you that same information
that Fred printed up.  That will tell you the town from  which they came.
You may have a problem with knowing which one is correct.  Supposedly, you
can order copies of the records for a fee, but I am not sure where that is
on  that site.  I wrote an  email to the Osnabruck address some time ago and
they did answer my letter.   The webpage for the archives (all 3) is this:

       http://www.staatsarchive.niedersachsen.de/home/

Then you can find each of the email address for each of the areas,
Osnabruck, Hannover, and Wolfbuttel. If you choose not to write, you might
at least get some idea where you might look locate the birthplace of your
ancestors. 
Good luck,
Barbara

         





Re: [HN] Lonnemann Lengerich

Date: 2003/02/23 03:44:34
From: Patricia Knight <pknight1(a)fidnet.com>

Barbara, Hans Peter Albers & Werner!

My thanks to you all for responding to my questions on Fredrich and Margaret
Schroeder Dedeke of Hanover, Germany.  I have been away for a few days and
just returned home...much to my surprise ...there was a good deal of info on
this subject.

I will read all the many e mails and get back to you.

Thanks again!

Pat
----- Original Message -----
From: "Barbara Stewart" <raymondg(a)attbi.com>
To: <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 6:27 PM
Subject: Re: [HN] Lonnemann Lengerich


> Hi Pat,
>     Frille is very near to the city of Petershagen. I do think that would
> have been in the kingdom of Hannover.  The city of Hannover is not that
far
> away.  The LDS has church records for Frille in the 1800's.  I must tell
you
> that even tombstones can be wrong on dates.  This was so for my
> great-grandmother born in Germany.  Or perhaps whoever read the original
> record could  have misread the date of birth.  I don't want to mislead
you,
> but I think I'd take a look at the film. Were your grandparents married
when
> they came to the U.S.?
> Good luck!
> Barbara
>
>
>
> on 2/20/03 4:32 PM, Patricia Knight at pknight1(a)fidnet.com wrote:
>
> > Fredrich Dedeke states on obit and church records that he was from
Hanover,
> > Germany.  I don't know much else about them before the Waterloo, IL
area.
> >
> > I will check the LDS again.
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Pat
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Barbara Stewart" <raymondg(a)attbi.com>
> > To: <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
> > Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 11:12 AM
> > Subject: Re: [HN] Lonnemann Lengerich
> >
> >
> >> Hello Patricia,
> >> Is there any chance that the  FRIEDERICH CHRISTIAN DEDEKE  born in
> >> 1829 in Frille, Westfalen, Prussia could be your ancestor?  It is on
the
> > LDS
> >> website.  Do you have birth and marriage dates for your people?
> >> Barbara
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> on 2/20/03 9:24 AM, Patricia Knight at pknight1(a)fidnet.com wrote:
> >>
> >>> This is a very interesting discussion...low and high German. My mother
> > often
> >>> spoke of her family's dislike for one side of the family and said that
> > they
> >>> spoke low German and the other side high German. I don't think she
knew
> > what
> >>> was meant but, took it to mean ...demeaning in nature.
> >>>
> >>> My real question is this...my gggrandmother from Hanover...in her obit
,
> > it
> >>> stated that she was from Leadwich Dres, Hanover ...she died in
Waterloo,
> > IL.
> >>> This might be the area (Lengerich) that they wrote...I am just
grasping
> > at
> >>> straws since I have been told there is no such place.
> >>>
> >>> Would this be the area of Hanover....crossing my fingers....that she
> > could
> >>> have been from Lengerich ?????
> >>>
> >>> The surnames involved were Griemel from Grossen Linden , Hessen,
Germany
> > and
> >>> Dedeke , Schmidt , Spellmeyer\Spellmeier from Hanover.
> >>>
> >>> The church that they belonged to all spoke German in the 1850\1900
time
> >>> frame in Waterloo, IL.  They didn't use English in their services
until
> >>> about 1910. She was Margaret Schroeder and her husband was Fredrich
> > Dedeke
> >>> both born in Hanover.
> >>>
> >>> Just hoping that I can locate the area of their birth.
> >>>
> >>> Thanks
> >>>
> >>> Pat
> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>> From: "Teresa McMillin" <teresamcmillin(a)attbi.com>
> >>> To: <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
> >>> Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 10:04 PM
> >>> Subject: RE: [HN] Lonnemann Lengerich
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> Thanks for your help, Werner!
> >>>>
> >>>> Teresa
> >>>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: hannover-l-admin(a)genealogy.net
> >>>> [mailto:hannover-l-admin(a)genealogy.net]On Behalf Of Werner Honkomp
> >>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 11:25 AM
> >>>> To: hannover-l(a)genealogy.net
> >>>> Subject: RE: [HN] Lonnemann Lengerich
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Hello Teresa,
> >>>> there is not a Steinkamp but some Stein and two Lonnemann:
> >>>>
> >>>> - Lonnemann Johann Rudolph, born about 1810 in Gersten, parish
> >>> St.Benedictus
> >>>> Lengerich(Lingen county)
> >>>> no married Heuerlingssohn(son of a Heuermann), emigrated 1840
> >>>>
> >>>> - Lonnemann Anna Maria, born 22.Sep.1844 in Bregenbeke, parish
> > Lengerich,
> >>>> emigrated 1866,
> >>>> parents: Heuermann Johann Berard Lonnemann and Anna Christina Kuhl
> >>>>
> >>>> That's all,
> >>>> Werner
> >>>>
> >>>>> Hi Werner,
> >>>>
> >>>>> I noticed your reference to the emigrants book of the former
Landkreis
> >>>>> Lingen.  Were there any STEINKAMP's or LONNEMAN's who emigrated from
> >>> that
> >>>>> area?
> >>>>
> >>>>> Thanks for your help!
> >>>>
> >>>>> Teresa
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> Hannover-L mailing list
> >>>> Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> >>>> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> Hannover-L mailing list
> >>>> Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> >>>> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Hannover-L mailing list
> >>> Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> >>> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Hannover-L mailing list
> >> Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> >> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l
> >>
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Hannover-L mailing list
> > Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> > http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Hannover-L mailing list
> Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l
>



Re: [HN] Lengerich - Hannover

Date: 2003/02/23 04:02:03
From: Patricia Knight <pknight1(a)fidnet.com>

Hello George!

The info that I have on the Dedeke and Schroeder Families ...I obtained from
church records in Waterloo, IL. The church was United Church of Christ and
also from obits that were in local newspapers.  The newspaper is where I
found the name Leadwich Dres, Hanover. I have death records, baptismal
records, etc.

I have found their son in law and researched him back to the town of Grossen
Linden and a German lady sent me so much info on him...all the way back to
1560 in church records along with pictures of the house that this line lived
in...when in Germany. What good luck is this...I was so pleased!!!

I pretty much have info from about 1850 to the present on the above family
but, nothing prior to 1850. I was lucky enough to find someone who had
pictures of these people.  I was so glad to get the pictures.

I have checked ship records and cannot find them on a ship...maybe, it
hasn't been transcribed yet.

I don't know when they came to the U.S. or how/when they arrived...am still
trying to find that info.

Good luck!

Pat
----- Original Message -----
From: "george hicks" <eddihix(a)email.msn.com>
To: <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
Sent: Friday, February 21, 2003 7:06 PM
Subject: Re: [HN] Lengerich - Hannover


> Patricia, on what boat did your gggrandmother come to America?  My
> gggrandparents, Bernard Willer & Gesina Maria Giesen, came to St. Louis in
> 1853-54 from Lengerich (lengen) and I have not found them listed on any
> passenger lists.
>
> George Hicks
> Kansas City
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Patricia Knight" <pknight1(a)fidnet.com>
> To: <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
> Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 5:30 PM
> Subject: Re: [HN] Lengerich - Hannover
>
>
> > Hello Werner!
> >
> > My gggrandmother's name was Margaretha Schroeder b. July 10, 1835 and d.
> May
> > 26, 1910 in St. Louis , MO.
> > Fredrich Dedeke was b. May 14, 1825 and d. April 9, 1900 in Waterloo,
IL.
> >
> > Pat
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Werner Honkomp" <Werner.Honkomp(a)t-online.de>
> > To: <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
> > Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 12:47 PM
> > Subject: Re: [HN] Lengerich - Hannover
> >
> >
> > >
> > > > My real question is this...my gggrandmother from Hanover...in her
obit
> ,
> > > > it
> > > > stated that she was from Leadwich Dres, Hanover ...she died in
> Waterloo,
> > > > IL.
> > > > This might be the area (Lengerich) that they wrote...I am just
> grasping
> > at
> > > > straws since I have been told there is no such place.
> > >
> > > > Would this be the area of Hanover....crossing my fingers....that she
> > could
> > > > have been from Lengerich ?????
> > >
> > > What is the first and surname of your gggrandmother?
> > >
> > > I have some Drees in parish Lengerich.
> > >
> > > Werner
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Hannover-L mailing list
> > > Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> > > http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Hannover-L mailing list
> > Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> > http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Hannover-L mailing list
> Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l
>



Re: [HN] re: surnames: AHRENS, GENTEMANN, KIRSCH, BOEGEL also STAGE

Date: 2003/02/23 04:11:56
From: marsmemories <marsmemories(a)juno.com>

There were some people by the name of GENTLEMAN living in Clayton County
or Allamakee County, Iowa in the early 1900's.  I remember seeing that in
my travels across the Internet.

Marlene
South Dakota
 
On Sat, 22 Feb 2003 12:49:56 -0600 "Susan Westhoff" <subwest(a)attbi.com>
writes:
> Maureen,
>    My Henry J. Ahrens was born in Apr 3, 1838, in Gross 
> Algermissen,
> Hildesheim, Germany. He emigrated to Missouri in 1857 through New 
> Orleans,
> LA. He married MariaAnna Gentemann in 1864 in St. Peters, MO. He 
> died and is
> buried in O'Fallon, MO. I dont know if he ever was in NY or NJ.
> Susan
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Maureen" <mcshelly2(a)msn.com>
> To: <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
> Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 12:02 AM
> Subject: Re: [HN] re: surnames: AHRENS, GENTEMANN, KIRSCH, BOEGEL 
> also STAGE
> 
> 
> > I have a younger Henry Ahrens b. ca. 1875-1880 who married Agnes 
> Alvine
> and
> > lived in New York and New Jersey.  They had one child, a daughter 
> Evelyn,
> > who married Louis Casazza.
> >
> > The Alvines were Swedish and their other daughter, Bessie, also 
> married a
> > man of Hannover who was my grandfather.
> >
> > I would be very interested to learn if my Henry, called "Harry," 
> was the
> son
> > of your Henry J. Ahrens.
> >
> > Maureen
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Susan Westhoff" <subwest(a)attbi.com>
> > To: <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
> > Sent: Friday, February 21, 2003 12:11 PM
> > Subject: [HN] re: surnames: AHRENS, GENTEMANN, KIRSCH, BOEGEL also 
> STAGE
> >
> >
> > I'm researching:
> >    HENRY J, AHRENS  b. Apr. 3, 1838 in Gross Algermissen Amt 
> Hildesheim,
> > Hannover
> >    CHRISTOP AHRENS b. abt 1801
> >    MARIA ANNA KIRSCH b. abt 1796
> >    MARIA ANNA GENTEMANN b Apr 7, 1839
> >    JOHANN GENTEMANN b 1804
> >    GERTRUDE BOEGEL b 1809
> > also:
> >    HENRY STAGE b Aug 29, 1830
> >
> > Susan Westhoff
> > subwest(a)attbi.com
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Hannover-L mailing list
> > Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> > http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Hannover-L mailing list
> > Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> > http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Hannover-L mailing list
> Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l
> 
> 


Re: [HN] Stagge Stockum/Osnabrück

Date: 2003/02/23 06:31:16
From: Fred Rump <fredrump(a)earthlink.net>

On 22 Feb 2003 at 15:47, Barbara Stewart wrote:

> Next, fill in the box with the surname of the person and choose Nach
> personen. Then click on suche.  I already did Kuhlmann  and  you will
> find a number by that name.  Eberhard is not one of them, but there
> are many Heinrichs. Click on the number at  the far right and it will
> give  you that same information that Fred printed up.  That will tell
> you the town from  which they came. You may have a problem with
> knowing which one is correct.  


Where do you find any towns in those records?

The information given when I click on the find number at the right is 
a file number for the original records in the archives. Nowhere do I 
see any towns listed. 

Fred

4788 Corian Court
Naples, FL 34114
239-775-7838; 239-269-4781 (cell) 
FredRump(a)earthlink.net





Re: [HN] Stagge Stockum/Osnabrück

Date: 2003/02/23 07:22:34
From: Barbara Stewart <raymondg(a)attbi.com>

Hello Fred,
     Somewhere in my many letters here, I have referred to the fact that
Osnabruck is not so clear as to finding the name of the town. On that
Osnabruck page, if you click on Gliederung, you will get the list of
Osnabruck towns. But try doing Dedeke e.g. on the Hannover page.  You will
get  4 returns and if you click on the number, there will be a town clearly
listed. Should that not refer to the place of origin? I have used other
names there with the same kind of results.  Osnabruck's website is less
clear as I explained in a previous letter to Susan Westhoff and the Stagge
name. In most cases (in Osnabruck) there are only the first 3 or 4 letters
of what would suggest a town (In the same spot where the town is listed in
the Hannover records.)
    A live conversation would be much easier than trying to explain this
whole thing!  I'm sorry if I am not making myself clear.  You must
understand that I do not write German and  only read it with some
familiarity because I've been doing a  lot of genealogy and have traveled to
Germany twice and researched records from two dioceses there.  I also use an
on-line translator from time to time that will give me somewhat of an idea.
Then I fiddle around until I have some understanding with how it all works.
     I had used the Osnabruck site for my own ancestors and when I could not
find anything, I wrote an email to the archives.  They graciously wrote back
and verified what I had concluded. I think they would do the same again,
especially from someone not familiar with the process.
     I'm just trying to be helpful here. Finding an immigrant's place of
birth is the a necessary hurdle before you can go on!
Barbara  





on 2/22/03 10:30 PM, Fred Rump at fredrump(a)earthlink.net wrote:

> On 22 Feb 2003 at 15:47, Barbara Stewart wrote:
> 
>> Next, fill in the box with the surname of the person and choose Nach
>> personen. Then click on suche.  I already did Kuhlmann  and  you will
>> find a number by that name.  Eberhard is not one of them, but there
>> are many Heinrichs. Click on the number at  the far right and it will
>> give  you that same information that Fred printed up.  That will tell
>> you the town from  which they came. You may have a problem with
>> knowing which one is correct.
> 
> 
> Where do you find any towns in those records?
> 
> The information given when I click on the find number at the right is
> a file number for the original records in the archives. Nowhere do I
> see any towns listed.
> 
> Fred
> 
> 4788 Corian Court
> Naples, FL 34114
> 239-775-7838; 239-269-4781 (cell)
> FredRump(a)earthlink.net
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Hannover-L mailing list
> Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l



Re: [HN] Lengerich - Hannover

Date: 2003/02/23 10:14:28
From: Hans Peter Albers <320097756779-0001(a)t-online.de>

Patricia Knight schrieb:

> The info that I have on the Dedeke and Schroeder Families ...I obtained from
> church records in Waterloo, IL. The church was United Church of Christ and
> also from obits that were in local newspapers.  The newspaper is where I
> found the name Leadwich Dres, Hanover. I have death records, baptismal
> records, etc.
Hello Patricia,

have you got a place of birth also written in the death record or baptismal 
record for those people of "Leadwich Dres" ? If yes can it be read in some 
slightly other way? When in which ?. Tried already a lot, because newspaper often 
turn around simply two letters, but there is even no "Ladewich, Ladewig", 
especially none with the suffix "Dres". If it is written in the above cited way, 
first "Leadwich" then "," and then "Hanover", it will be not a quarter of the 
town of Hannover. In that case normally one would say "Hannover-Leadwich", exept 
it became very late a part of the town. Up to now, the only idea I got and it is 
only a trace of an idea, is "Landwürden" nearby "Dedesdorf", nowadays belonging 
to 27612 Loxstedt, which is in the Cuxhaven area, very nearby the town of 
Cuxhaven, which is a harbour town. It´s only because of the possible word melody 
and you get an explanation for "Dres" which could be perhaps a shortening for 
"Dedesdorf". By the way, as their son in law is from Großen Linden, he is not 
anymore from the region of "Lower Saxony". But there may be also another explana- 
tion for  your "Leadwich". It can be wrong heard and written for "Landwehr", 
which is quite often, and was quite more often ago as a living place name. Then 
the really name of village or place must be in "Dres". Landwehr were formings in 
landscape for better defense of the country, sometimes as an earthwall, sometimes 
even a small valley, which could be flooded. Nearby settlements often got the 
name Landwehr, but ususally belonged to the towns or villages, which builded 
these defensements. But don`t take all that for more then vague possibilities. If 
in the given name of "Leadwich Dres" is not the birth place, but the place of 
last stay in Germany meant, it would give some sense with the "Landwürden"-place 
near Cuxhaven.

So sorry for not being able to give more definitely news. Definetely found is one 
Dedeke or Dederke in Hannover. There married 23.5.1802 Carl Heinrich Dederke, 
Feldwebel,Garde, *Bissendorf and Anna Catharina Westhof, * Herrenhausen. Not the 
one you looked for, perhaps needed dates in the generation before. 

So that`s all for the moment                              Hans Peter Albers




[HN] Twießelhop now found

Date: 2003/02/23 11:28:21
From: Hans Peter Albers <320097756779-0001(a)t-online.de>

dear gutt morgen,

found something about your Twießelhop in: "Der Speicher". Heimatbuch für den 
Landkreis Celle, hrsg. von Friedrich Helke und Heinrich Hohls,Hermannsburg: 
Missionsbuchhandlung (1.Auflage 1930) 1990, Seite 612

There are given the results of cenus from 1821 to 1925:

It is said Twießelhop belonged in former time to Amt Bergen and to Amtsvogtei 
Bergen and belongs then (1930)to the "Standesamtsbezirk Sülze", as also to the 
"Postanstalt Sülze". In 1821 there were in Sülze 48, respectively 49 buildings, 
378,respectively 381 Inhabitants, in 1848 52 buildings and 433 inhabitants, 
1900590 inhabitants, 1910 647 Inhabtants, 2 of them died in war, 1925 they 101 
buildings and 662 inhabitants. Twießelhop seems to have stopped existing after 
1821 and before 1848, because, there is only one mentioning in 1821:

    Twießelhop, part of Sülze i.H. 1821:   one building, three inhabitants. 

If you want to write to the parish, which should have the parish books nowadays, 
so they are still existing, it`s nowadays:

    Evangelische Kirchengemeinde, Friedensplatz 1 and 2, 29303 Bergen

I think in end we found it. So long                   Hans Peter Albers




[HN] Twießelhop now found II

Date: 2003/02/23 13:25:16
From: Hans Peter Albers <320097756779-0001(a)t-online.de>

Another Information about Twißelhop

The same source as before tells on page 166, that the Twißelhoop was in 1853 
taken out of the Amt Bergen and put to the Amt Winsen (must be that Winsen/ 
Aller, not Winsen/Luhe, what is more north) and it was from the same time thrown 
under justice of the Amtsgericht Celle (before Bergen). So if there were after 
taht any Inhabitants, they must be found in the documents for the Amt 
Winsen/Aller, if there was some trouble, the court of Celle was the proper one. 
As Winsen/Aller is in the same statistics quoted before, one should think after 
1853 Twißelhop should be shown there below Winsen/Aller, but it isn`t. So if 
there were no other statistic rules, which allowed to subsum smaller settlements 
under the account of the larger namesetting one, it remains the conclusion that 
Twißelhop was given up as a living place. That´s it.         Hans Peter Albers




Re: [HN] Kuhlmann Freren/Lingen

Date: 2003/02/23 15:11:12
From: Werner Honkomp <Werner.Honkomp(a)t-online.de>

The book about Emigrants from former Amt Lingen shows also some Kuhlmann and one Harde, but not your.
It is located in the former Kingdom of Hannover.

The catholic parishes are: Freren and Lingen.

Werner


> Good day listmembers,
> I'm curious.  I've been trying to find out some ancestral information
> about
> my cousin's grandfather, but to no avail.   How does one go about getting
> the
> info as in the message from Fred Rump below.  It appears to be passenger
> list
> info but not from Ellis Island.  I'd surely like some assistance with my
> brick wall -- EBERHART KUHLMAN & his wife SOPHIA DIANA HARDE -- their
> information as I know it below ~~

> Descendants of Eberhart Henry Kuhlman

>     1   KUHLMAN, Eberhart Henry b: December 18, 1833 in Hanover, Hannover,
> Germany [Now Niedersachsen]
> d: June 25, 1919 Toledo, Lucas, County, Ohio
> ..      +HARDE, Sophia Diana    b: March 29, 1836 in Osnabruck Stadt,
> Hannover, Preussen @ 8:00 a.m.
> m: June 25, 1857 in Salem Lutheran Church, Toledo, Lucas County, Ohio
> d: September 9, 1895 Toledo, Lucas, County, Ohio

> Thank you in advance,
> Beverly Mack Zanon





Re: [HN] Lengerich - Hannover

Date: 2003/02/23 15:11:12
From: Werner Honkomp <Werner.Honkomp(a)t-online.de>

Grossen Linden is a town in Hessen, far away from Hannover. There live also A Dreesen family.

The name could be Ludwig Dres or Drees.

Werner

> Hello George!

> The info that I have on the Dedeke and Schroeder Families ...I obtained
> from
> church records in Waterloo, IL. The church was United Church of Christ and
> also from obits that were in local newspapers.  The newspaper is where I
> found the name Leadwich Dres, Hanover. I have death records, baptismal
> records, etc.

> I have found their son in law and researched him back to the town of
> Grossen
> Linden and a German lady sent me so much info on him...all the way back to
> 1560 in church records along with pictures of the house that this line
> lived
> in...when in Germany. What good luck is this...I was so pleased!!!

> I pretty much have info from about 1850 to the present on the above family
> but, nothing prior to 1850. I was lucky enough to find someone who had
> pictures of these people.  I was so glad to get the pictures.

> I have checked ship records and cannot find them on a ship...maybe, it
> hasn't been transcribed yet.

> I don't know when they came to the U.S. or how/when they arrived...am
> still
> trying to find that info.

> Good luck!

> Pat



[HN] AHRENS, KIRSCH, BOEGEL

Date: 2003/02/23 15:20:09
From: Thomas Sprenger <thomas_sprenger(a)t-online.de>

Hello Susan,

I have Maria Gertrude Boegel * 19 November 1809

and I have Heinrich Ahrens * 3 April 1838 in Groß Algermissen


Andreas (Bogel) Boegel oo
1.oo Maria Jordan
Child: Johannes Heinrich Bogel * 1767 in ? + ? oo N.N. Child: Joseph Raphael
Boegel * 1793 in Emmerke, Hannover, Germany + in O´Fallon /  Missouri (USA)
oo 7 November 1826, in Ahrbergen, Germany, mit Magdelina Gehrs, * 1803
Ahrbergen, Germany, + 16 November 1876 in O´Fallon /  Missouri (USA)
2. oo Maria Schrader
Child: Johannes Heinrich (Bogel) Boegel * ? in Emmerke, Hannover, Germany +
1841 in Emmerke, Hannover, Germany
oo Anna Maria Bruns * 1764 in Bettmar, Germany, + 1816 in Emmerke, Hannover,
Germany
Child: Maria Gertrude Boegel * 19 November 1809

Franz Peter Ahrens, - aus Groß Algermissen - * ? + 1815 oo Maria Elisabeth
Beimes, - aus Groß Algermissen - + 1815
3 Child: Josef Ahrens
Johann Georg Christian Ahrens * 1794 in Groß Algermissen, Beruf: Zinngießer
in Sibbesse oo 31 Januar 1815 in Westfeld, Katharine Marie Dorothea
Eisenhuth * 1797 Lamgrighausen, Amt Kalenberg, + 5 Mai 1856 in Sibbesse
(seven children)
Christoph Ahrens, - aus Groß Algermissen - * ? Beruf: mercator cuprarius in
Großalgermissen.
oo Maria Anna Kirsch, - aus Groß Algermissen -
2 Child: Josef Ahrens * 19 November 1835
             Heinrich Ahrens * 3 April 1838 in Groß Algermissen

It´s fiene to help you.
If you want a gedcom file, please kontakt direkt and give me your adress.

Mit besten Grüßen
aus Dietzenbach


Thomas Sprenger


                e-Mail / Privat:               thomas_sprenger(a)t-online.de
                Homepage:
http://thomas_sprenger.bei.t-online.de/Stage/Preview/html/index.html

----- Original Message -----
From: "Susan Westhoff" <subwest(a)attbi.com>
To: <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
Sent: Friday, February 21, 2003 7:11 PM
Subject: [HN] re: surnames: AHRENS, GENTEMANN, KIRSCH, BOEGEL also STAGE


I'm researching:
   HENRY J, AHRENS  b. Apr. 3, 1838 in Gross Algermissen Amt Hildesheim,
Hannover
   CHRISTOP AHRENS b. abt 1801
   MARIA ANNA KIRSCH b. abt 1796
   MARIA ANNA GENTEMANN b Apr 7, 1839
   JOHANN GENTEMANN b 1804
   GERTRUDE BOEGEL b 1809
also:
   HENRY STAGE b Aug 29, 1830

Susan Westhoff
subwest(a)attbi.com

_______________________________________________
Hannover-L mailing list
Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l




[HN] Twißelhop III

Date: 2003/02/23 15:50:32
From: Hans Peter Albers <320097756779-0001(a)t-online.de>

Hallo again for the third news of Twißelhop to gutt morgan,

as there is today again or perhaps even still only one settled place, perhaps the 
there living: 

"Konrad Pfeiffer,(Ortsteil:) Sülze, (Street:) Twisselhop (without number of 
house), in 29303 Bergen (Ni)"                   with the telefon-nr. 05054 / 8636 

may ne something about the history of the place. It`s even for German habit a 
difficult address, but if you threw out everything in paranthesis, the way to 
address a letter remains. Take into considerations that a telefon-call in that 
affair will be a very surprising affair, written things give more time to 
remember.

I read again your first E-mail on this subject, so you got already the cd`s of 
the Bergen Church. From 1875 on people, if they were living at Twißelhop, had to 
inform the Standesamt in Winsen/Aller of marriages and other events. If there was 
a contract about selling the place after 1853 it must be searched under records 
of the Amtsgericht Celle, before that at the same sort of court in Bergen. In a 
normal case the boundaries of the "Kirchspiel" did not change, when those of the 
"Amtsbezirk", in short "Amt" became others. But it can be no damage, if you try 
to find your people also in the parishes of Winsen/Aller. We got two there:

Ev.Freikirchliche Gemeinde, Wolthäuser str. 27a , 29308 Winsen/Aller 05143 / 2317 
and
Ev.St.Johanniskirchengemeinde, Kirchstr. 12, 29308 Tel. 05143/ 6393

They are both Lutherian, but of some slight different believe, the last one is 
the older one. 

Little bit complicated situation, so give me an e-mail, if there is a question 
left: E-mail 320097756779-0001(a)t-online.de. 

Nice sunday to all                                       Hans Peter Albers



Re: [HN] Twielhop III

Date: 2003/02/23 16:36:20
From: gutt morgan <guttmorgan(a)hotmail.com>

You are so kind and extremely helpful.
I do not speak german. I do resort to the translator. I try to use both so the person may resort to English version to understand me. How did you find that address. Is Twisselhop listed in telphone buch. I wonder if Töpe would be near also. Some time soon, I shall try some of these villages. I did contact Mr. Fink at the Bergen church who did such a fantastic job. But i cannot seem to reach him on his email.

Maybe this method of writing someone, may help me get an idea of history.
I do believe i had better polish up my letter writing skills.


I do know that some surnames mixed with the Heins of Bergen are in Texas and some are in Bosw??? South Africa. One can often see the name of a german village there.

again thank you,
Jo Meyer








From: 320097756779-0001(a)t-online.de (Hans Peter Albers)
Reply-To: hannover-l(a)genealogy.net
To: hannover-l(a)genealogy.net
Subject: [HN] Twißelhop III
Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2003 15:50:27 +0100

Hallo again for the third news of Twißelhop to gutt morgan,

as there is today again or perhaps even still only one settled place, perhaps the
there living:

"Konrad Pfeiffer,(Ortsteil:) Sülze, (Street:) Twisselhop (without number of
house), in 29303 Bergen (Ni)" with the telefon-nr. 05054 / 8636

may ne something about the history of the place. It`s even for German habit a difficult address, but if you threw out everything in paranthesis, the way to address a letter remains. Take into considerations that a telefon-call in that
affair will be a very surprising affair, written things give more time to
remember.

I read again your first E-mail on this subject, so you got already the cd`s of the Bergen Church. From 1875 on people, if they were living at Twißelhop, had to inform the Standesamt in Winsen/Aller of marriages and other events. If there was a contract about selling the place after 1853 it must be searched under records of the Amtsgericht Celle, before that at the same sort of court in Bergen. In a normal case the boundaries of the "Kirchspiel" did not change, when those of the "Amtsbezirk", in short "Amt" became others. But it can be no damage, if you try
to find your people also in the parishes of Winsen/Aller. We got two there:


_________________________________________________________________
The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail



Re: [HN] Stagge Stockum/Osnabrück

Date: 2003/02/23 17:04:43
From: Fred Rump <fredrump(a)earthlink.net>

On 22 Feb 2003 at 23:22, Barbara Stewart wrote:

> Hello Fred,
> Somewhere in my many letters here, I have referred to the fact that
> Osnabruck is not so clear as to finding the name of the town.

OK, I do see a difference here now. These are different archives even
though they all fall under the general heading of Niedersachsen.
Somewhere along the line they were all put under the same
administrative heading but I assume that much they do is still
organized from older times when they were independent of each other.

>On that
> Osnabruck page, if you click on Gliederung, you will get the list of
> Osnabruck towns.

I'm still trying to figure out just where the numbers under
Gliederung fit into the schema.

>But try doing Dedeke e.g. on the Hannover page.  You
> will get  4 returns and if you click on the number, there will be a
> town clearly listed. Should that not refer to the place of origin? I
> have used other names there with the same kind of results.

Yes, the results under the hannover search definitely give a
location. My assumption is that hannover has much more archival
material for the entire former kingdom not in the other two sub-
archives. They also must have their archives organized by the towns
they came from. So your Dedeke, Catharine Marie Dorothee has a
location number of 1402 which brings us to Bestell-Nr.:
Hauptstaatsarchiv Hannover,  Hann. 74 Burgwedel Nr. 1475. Yet under
Gliederung we find the Amt Burgwedel listed as 30....  So what gives?
What do the numbers mean? I would assume that only the archivists can
explain the system. :-)

> Osnabruck's website is less clear as I explained in a previous letter
> to Susan Westhoff and the Stagge name. In most cases (in Osnabruck)
> there are only the first 3 or 4 letters of what would suggest a town
> (In the same spot where the town is listed in the Hannover records.)
> A live conversation would be much easier than trying to explain this
> whole thing!  I'm sorry if I am not making myself clear.

You're doing fine. In my searches under Osnabrück I find no relevence
to location. Only to various order or file numbers which presumably
identify the location of a file in a rack.

>  You must
> understand that I do not write German and  only read it with some
> familiarity because I've been doing a  lot of genealogy and have
> traveled to Germany twice and researched records from two dioceses
> there.  I also use an on-line translator from time to time that will
> give me somewhat of an idea. Then I fiddle around until I have some
> understanding with how it all works.

Fiddling around is what we all do. :-)It's when you explain your
fiddling that others can follow the path and learn something
themselves.

> I'm just trying to be helpful here. Finding an immigrant's place of
> birth is the a necessary hurdle before you can go on!

Just last Wednesday I spoke on German genealogy stuff at the Sarasota
Genealogy Society. There was the German interest group which normally
has about 30 people attending. I asked for a show of hands as to how
many had made the leap across to a place of birth for their
ancestors. The majority hadn't. I was quite surprised.

Most Americans hit a brick wall when they try to go beyond the
Hannover or Prussia place of origin. It's there somewhere, but where?
So we fiddle here and look there and hope to someday make a
connection. That's just the way it is.

Fred

4788 Corian Court
Naples, FL 34114
239-775-7838; 239-269-4781 (cell)
FredRump(a)earthlink.net





Re: [HN] Stagge Stockum/Osnabrück

Date: 2003/02/23 18:45:24
From: Barbara Stewart <raymondg(a)attbi.com>

Hi Fred,
      Thanks for your response to my ramblings.  Now I'd like you to help me
figure out the Osnabruck site.  I still feel that somehow one could connect
the town with those numbers on the right side with each person.
      First of all, go into the Gliederung where the towns are listed.
Click on one of the towns. Sometimes it gives nothing.  But try Lathen, e.g.
It lists the same kind of coded statements as it does in the Hannover site.
Those numbers  appear in a range of the same numbers. All the numbers start
there with 38 and 39. Therefore, by trial and error, one could determine a
town. But there must be an easier way.  Maybe, somewhere it would give the
town together with the numbers that apply to that town. I still am convinced
that those numbers correspond with the towns.
     I feel like a spy for the CIA trying to crack a code!  Bear with me.
Try this.  On the Osnabruck site do a search for Stagge.  See the numbers on
the right. Choose the number 6240, click and it gives you:
    Rep 350 Frer Nr 62
     Now go to  Gliederung and  get the list of towns. On the left, go down
to the one (starts with a 06) for Kirchspiel Lengerich. You will get the
list of records for Lengerich.  You will see the number 6240 and the
statement will be identical as the one above which matches one of the Stagge
people.  Granted, there are others that have the same coded statement, but
if they lead back to Lengerich,  that has to be significant!
     What does Kirchspiel mean?  Kirche is  church, I  know, but what does
the spiel make it mean.  The online translator says it means "church play".
Hardly!
     I really would like to "crack the code" on this!  I know you can order
records from the various archives.  But this would be easier if one  could
just find a birthplace with some assurance that it is the right choice.
Maybe Osnabruck leaves it a mystery so you have to order from them.  A
record from there would certainly give the birthdate of the person as well
as things like the date of immigration.
      What do you think?
Barbara
     



Re: [HN] Lengerich - Hannover

Date: 2003/02/23 19:49:40
From: george hicks <eddihix(a)email.msn.com>

Thanks Pat !   If you find the ship, let me know.  My Bernard Willer &
family might be on the same ship.

George Hicks


----- Original Message -----
From: "Patricia Knight" <pknight1(a)fidnet.com>
To: <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 8:43 PM
Subject: Re: [HN] Lengerich - Hannover


> Hello George!
>
> The info that I have on the Dedeke and Schroeder Families ...I obtained
from
> church records in Waterloo, IL. The church was United Church of Christ and
> also from obits that were in local newspapers.  The newspaper is where I
> found the name Leadwich Dres, Hanover. I have death records, baptismal
> records, etc.
>
> I have found their son in law and researched him back to the town of
Grossen
> Linden and a German lady sent me so much info on him...all the way back to
> 1560 in church records along with pictures of the house that this line
lived
> in...when in Germany. What good luck is this...I was so pleased!!!
>
> I pretty much have info from about 1850 to the present on the above family
> but, nothing prior to 1850. I was lucky enough to find someone who had
> pictures of these people.  I was so glad to get the pictures.
>
> I have checked ship records and cannot find them on a ship...maybe, it
> hasn't been transcribed yet.
>
> I don't know when they came to the U.S. or how/when they arrived...am
still
> trying to find that info.
>
> Good luck!
>
> Pat
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "george hicks" <eddihix(a)email.msn.com>
> To: <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
> Sent: Friday, February 21, 2003 7:06 PM
> Subject: Re: [HN] Lengerich - Hannover
>
>
> > Patricia, on what boat did your gggrandmother come to America?  My
> > gggrandparents, Bernard Willer & Gesina Maria Giesen, came to St. Louis
in
> > 1853-54 from Lengerich (lengen) and I have not found them listed on any
> > passenger lists.
> >
> > George Hicks
> > Kansas City
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Patricia Knight" <pknight1(a)fidnet.com>
> > To: <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
> > Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 5:30 PM
> > Subject: Re: [HN] Lengerich - Hannover
> >
> >
> > > Hello Werner!
> > >
> > > My gggrandmother's name was Margaretha Schroeder b. July 10, 1835 and
d.
> > May
> > > 26, 1910 in St. Louis , MO.
> > > Fredrich Dedeke was b. May 14, 1825 and d. April 9, 1900 in Waterloo,
> IL.
> > >
> > > Pat
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Werner Honkomp" <Werner.Honkomp(a)t-online.de>
> > > To: <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
> > > Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 12:47 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [HN] Lengerich - Hannover
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > > My real question is this...my gggrandmother from Hanover...in her
> obit
> > ,
> > > > > it
> > > > > stated that she was from Leadwich Dres, Hanover ...she died in
> > Waterloo,
> > > > > IL.
> > > > > This might be the area (Lengerich) that they wrote...I am just
> > grasping
> > > at
> > > > > straws since I have been told there is no such place.
> > > >
> > > > > Would this be the area of Hanover....crossing my fingers....that
she
> > > could
> > > > > have been from Lengerich ?????
> > > >
> > > > What is the first and surname of your gggrandmother?
> > > >
> > > > I have some Drees in parish Lengerich.
> > > >
> > > > Werner
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Hannover-L mailing list
> > > > Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> > > > http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Hannover-L mailing list
> > > Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> > > http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Hannover-L mailing list
> > Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> > http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Hannover-L mailing list
> Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l
>



Re: [HN] Stagge Stockum/Osnabrück

Date: 2003/02/23 20:10:38
From: Fred Rump <fredrump(a)earthlink.net>

On 23 Feb 2003 at 10:45, Barbara Stewart wrote:

> First of all, go into the Gliederung where the towns are listed.
> Click on one of the towns. Sometimes it gives nothing.  But try
> Lathen, e.g. It lists the same kind of coded statements as it does in
> the Hannover site. Those numbers  appear in a range of the same
> numbers. All the numbers start there with 38 and 39. Therefore, by
> trial and error, one could determine a town. But there must be an
> easier way.  Maybe, somewhere it would give the town together with the
> numbers that apply to that town. I still am convinced that those
> numbers correspond with the towns.

I see, I see said the blind man. I did not know one could click on
the Gliederungs numbers and get a detail of the repository under
those classifications.

>      I feel like a spy for the CIA trying to crack a code!  Bear with
>      me.
> Try this.  On the Osnabruck site do a search for Stagge.  See the
> numbers on the right. Choose the number 6240, click and it gives you:
>     Rep 350 Frer Nr 62
>      Now go to  Gliederung and  get the list of towns. On the left, go
>      down
> to the one (starts with a 06) for Kirchspiel Lengerich. You will get
> the list of records for Lengerich.

Trick question: how did you decide to look for Lengerich? Did you
think 06... leads to 6240?

I am still not able to find any key which leads me to understand what
the significance of REP ### Nr. ### under Bestellnummer means. I'm
dealing a lot with Kirchspiel Bissendorf in Amt Osnabrück. I just
printed out 6 pages of of sources listed under this place. The series
of LFD_NR goes from 21908-22113 but those numbers seem to have no
relevance except for their numeric sequence. If I had all those
series for each place I could then see from the access number given
for each person where they have documents which refer to them. Make
sense? The Gliederung doesn't seem to have any relevance to those
numbers.

>You will see the number 6240 and
> the statement will be identical as the one above which matches one of
> the Stagge people.  Granted, there are others that have the same coded
> statement, but if they lead back to Lengerich,  that has to be
> significant!

Yes it does. It means that there is a connection.

>      What does Kirchspiel mean?  Kirche is  church, I  know, but what
>      does
> the spiel make it mean.  The online translator says it means "church
> play". Hardly!

Kirchspiel is simply an older word for parish.

>      I really would like to "crack the code" on this!  I know you can
>      order
> records from the various archives.  But this would be easier if one
> could just find a birthplace with some assurance that it is the right
> choice. Maybe Osnabruck leaves it a mystery so you have to order from
> them.  A record from there would certainly give the birthdate of the
> person as well as things like the date of immigration.
>       What do you think?

I think we'll need a list of sequence numbers which start and end
with a place. If I have a few moments later today maybe I'll take a
look at that.

Fred


4788 Corian Court
Naples, FL 34114
239-775-7838; 239-269-4781 (cell)
FredRump(a)earthlink.net





Re: [HN] Stagge Stockum/Osnabrück

Date: 2003/02/23 20:33:42
From: Barbara Stewart <raymondg(a)attbi.com>

Fred,  
    Isn't it fun?  I think we  may get somewhere yet.  You asked why I
picked Lengerich and yes, it was because of the 06 in the left hand column.
I just looked at all the numbers and see that the first town on the list
starts  at 1 and the last town with a 5 digit number.  So, what we have to
do is guess the number in a range until we hit the right one.  I would think
that other numbers may somehow connect to a certain ship or destination or
date or some  such thing.  All these records are for passports, I believe.
Trouble for me is, I found nothing for my people in  the search of all of
them.  Oh,  well, it will be helpful in some cases  and not in others.
Common names would have  to call for records, since they don't  give
birthdates  or anything else.
     Yes, I, too,  have  to tend  to  other tasks today.  But I'm happy that
the picture is getting a wee  bit clearer. Thank you, Fred!
Barbara



[HN] Hannover/Osnabrück Site

Date: 2003/02/23 21:06:43
From: BZanon <BZanon(a)aol.com>

In a message dated 2/23/2003 11:46:43 AM Central Standard Time, 
raymondg(a)attbi.com writes:

> I still am convinced
> that those numbers correspond with the towns.
> 

I 2nd that notion.  Now that I have been able to get into that site, thanks 
to you, I also noted the #'g system and believe your assumption to be right.  

Thanks for all your incite into this website.  

Beverly


Re: [HN] Stagge Hannover

Date: 2003/02/23 21:28:28
From: Erbensucher <Erbensucher(a)aol.com>

Hello Teresa,

my gggrandmother is Emma Sophie Wilhelmine Steinkamp. She was born in 1842 in 
Westerstede. She had a brother Fritz Bernhard and a sister Friederike Marie 
Mathilde, born in Leer. Westerstede is in the district Ammerland in the west 
of Oldenburg and Leer is in East Frisia. Also there are a few Steinkamps in 
other parts of the former land of Oldenburg. May be your Steinkamps are 
related to my ancestors.

Best wishes from Hannover, Germany

Gunter


Re: [HN] Stagge Stockum/Osnabrück

Date: 2003/02/23 21:44:26
From: Paul Scheele <pfsco1(a)attbi.com>


> Fred,
>     Isn't it fun?  I think we  may get somewhere yet.  You asked why I
> picked Lengerich and yes, it was because of the 06 in the left hand
column.
> I just looked at all the numbers and see that the first town on the list
> starts  at 1 and the last town with a 5 digit number.  So, what we have to
> do is guess the number in a range until we hit the right one.  I would
think
> that other numbers may somehow connect to a certain ship or destination or
> date or some  such thing.  All these records are for passports, I believe.
> Trouble for me is, I found nothing for my people in  the search of all of
> them.  Oh,  well, it will be helpful in some cases  and not in others.
> Common names would have  to call for records, since they don't  give
> birthdates  or anything else.
>      Yes, I, too,  have  to tend  to  other tasks today.  But I'm happy
that
> the picture is getting a wee  bit clearer. Thank you, Fred!
> Barbara
>
>
I have been following the discourse between Barbara and Fred with interest
because I found two ggrandfathers listed in the records with Burgwedel
showing up when I click on the far right number. From my knowledge of those
people I am pretty sure that Burgwedel refers to the Kreis or Administrative
District of that time as they both came from the parish of Brelingen which
was in the Kreis Burgwedel.

My question is, how does one order these documents, or can you? I find in
another link a list of costs for various kinds of things but nothing about
how to go about accessing them. Also nothing about how many documents might
be in one of these repositories. Any clues?

Paul Scheele



[HN] Unsubscribing

Date: 2003/02/23 21:48:20
From: Bevstubor <Bevstubor(a)aol.com>

Would someone please tell me how to unsubscribe to this mail list?
Thank you,
Beverlee


Re: [HN] Unsubscribing

Date: 2003/02/23 22:06:13
From: Hans Peter Albers <320097756779-0001(a)t-online.de>

Bevstubor(a)aol.com schrieb:
> Would someone please tell me how to unsubscribe to this mail list?
> Thank you,
> Beverlee

I Think you have to go to the web-side below, where you can unlist. But why do 
want ?  Already everything found ?
> _______________________________________________
> Hannover-L mailing list
> Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l = <<<<this one



Re: [HN] Stagge Stockum/Osnabrück

Date: 2003/02/24 01:51:29
From: Barbara Stewart <raymondg(a)attbi.com>

Paul, 
     If you go to this page, it will give you an  email address of the
various archives;

       http://www.staatsarchive.niedersachsen.de/home/

  I have the one for Osnabruck handy here:
         poststelle(a)staatsarchiv-os.niedersachsen.de


     I would just write and  ask them what the procedure is.  When I wrote
them some time last year, they answered and  seemed helpful.  I just wanted
to verify that my family was NOT in their archives.  You'd think somewhere
it would be  more clear.  Maybe at the website above, there is an
explanation of fees.  I've never  spent  much time  looking at  that (it's
in German).
     If you do find out how to order and pay for the records, please let us
know on this list!
     Also, I wonder why Brelingen is not listed for your ancestors  since
there appears to be a church there.  There are  not LDS records for
Berlingen. The LDS lists it as Burgwedel(Kreis Burgdorf). But it is noted on
the map as an  area like Wedemark.  Mmmm....
We need a Hannover expert!  There are 2 towns on the map that I see for
Burgwedel (both Klein and Gross).
     Barbara
 
> I have been following the discourse between Barbara and Fred with interest
> because I found two ggrandfathers listed in the records with Burgwedel
> showing up when I click on the far right number. From my knowledge of those
> people I am pretty sure that Burgwedel refers to the Kreis or Administrative
> District of that time as they both came from the parish of Brelingen which
> was in the Kreis Burgwedel.
> 
> My question is, how does one order these documents, or can you? I find in
> another link a list of costs for various kinds of things but nothing about
> how to go about accessing them. Also nothing about how many documents might
> be in one of these repositories. Any clues?
> 
> Paul Scheele
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Hannover-L mailing list
> Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l



Re: [HN] Unsubscribing

Date: 2003/02/24 01:53:33
From: Barbara Stewart <raymondg(a)attbi.com>

Click on this and it will tell you how:
   http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo-e/Hannover-L



on 2/23/03 1:48 PM, Bevstubor(a)aol.com at Bevstubor(a)aol.com wrote:

> Would someone please tell me how to unsubscribe to this mail list?
> Thank you,
> Beverlee
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Hannover-L mailing list
> Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l



RE: [HN] Unsubscribing

Date: 2003/02/24 02:17:17
From: George Soergel <soergelone(a)earthlink.net>

E-Mail     Hannover-L-request(a)genealogy.net        then in the Subject line
put in   unsubscribe  and send it and you will be un subscribed
George


> [Original Message]
> From: <Bevstubor(a)aol.com>
> To: <hannover-L(a)genealogy.net>
> Date: 2/23/2003 4:49:00 PM
> Subject: [HN] Unsubscribing
>
> Would someone please tell me how to unsubscribe to this mail list?
> Thank you,
> Beverlee
>
> _______________________________________________
> Hannover-L mailing list
> Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l




Re: [HN] Stagge Stockum/Osnabrück

Date: 2003/02/24 02:33:18
From: Fred Rump <fredrump(a)earthlink.net>

On 23 Feb 2003 at 14:07, Paul Scheele wrote:

> My question is, how does one order these documents, or can you? I find
> in another link a list of costs for various kinds of things but
> nothing about how to go about accessing them. Also nothing about how
> many documents might be in one of these repositories. Any clues?
> 

That's the question I have an email waiting to be answered by the 
archive people. Will report back as soon as I know something more.

Fred


4788 Corian Court
Naples, FL 34114
239-775-7838; 239-269-4781 (cell) 
FredRump(a)earthlink.net





Re: [HN] Stagge Stockum/Osnabrück

Date: 2003/02/24 04:56:44
From: Fred Rump <fredrump(a)earthlink.net>

On 22 Feb 2003 at 15:54, Fred Rump wrote:

Following are the places where thes efolks are mentioned in the
archives:

Kirchspiel Hunteburg
> 26582 = Bestell-Nr.: Staatsarchiv Osnabrück,  Rep 350 Wit Nr. 318
> Stagge, Anne Marie 26582 Stagge, Johann Heinrich 26582


Kirchspiel Venne
> 27890 = Bestell-Nr.: Staatsarchiv Osnabrück,  Rep 450 Wit Nr. 86
> Stagge, Hermann 27890
> Stagge, männl. 27890
> Stagge, weibl. 27890
>
> 27891 = Bestell-Nr.: Staatsarchiv Osnabrück,  Rep 335 Nr. 807
> Stagge, Hermann Friedrich Wilhelm 27891
> Stagge, männl. + weibl. 27891
>
> 27892 = Bestell-Nr.: Staatsarchiv Osnabrück,  Rep 350 Wit Nr. 2080
> Stagge, Hermann Friedrich Wilhelm 27892 Stagge, Johann Friedrich 27892
> Stagge, Marie Louise 27892


don't know yet
> 6239 = Bestell-Nr.: Staatsarchiv Osnabrück,  Rep 335 Nr. 804
> Stagge, Johann Heinrich 6239
>
> 6240 = Bestell-Nr.: Staatsarchiv Osnabrück,  Rep 350 Frer Nr. 62
> Stagge, Johann Heinrich 6240
>
> 6241 = Bestell-Nr.: Staatsarchiv Osnabrück,  Rep 350 Lin Nr. 562
> Stagge, Johann Heinrich 6241
>
> 19931 = Bestell-Nr.: Staatsarchiv Osnabrück,  Rep 335 Nr. 792
> Stagge, männl. 19931


Kirchspiel Belm
> 21338 = Bestell-Nr.: Staatsarchiv Osnabrück,  Rep 360 OS Nr. 9
> Stagge, weibl. 21338

Fred

4788 Corian Court
Naples, FL 34114
239-775-7838; 239-269-4781 (cell)
FredRump(a)earthlink.net





Re: [HN] PLATTDEUTCHE

Date: 2003/02/24 16:17:11
From: Cactus Flower <barbie8674(a)hotmail.com>





Dear People?
A concensus yet? PlatteDuestch?  Low German?

I think..means from the Low countries...ie..land is below sea level.

Same as in the U.S.A... The low countries are S.C. (Charleston), G.A. (Savannah!)...think about it..!!

<~~ does think Platte..[platteau]

From: THEBOSCHBOSCHE(a)aol.com
Reply-To: hannover-l(a)genealogy.net
To: hannover-l(a)genealogy.net
Subject: [HN] PLATTDEUTCHE
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 13:09:35 EST

Hi to all,

I was reading Uwe ErichsSon's posting about the "www.routes.de" site, when I
noted the name Maning.  Since it is a name I have seldom seen, I went to a
web site in the town of Manning, Iowa, which was about 10 miles from where I
grew up.

On the site "http://pionet.net/~heritag/calendar.htm"; I found on the calendar
of events for Mannings Octoberfest the following:  "Low German Conference
October 3-4-5, 2003."

If I was still living in the area, I would no doubt attend, but since I now
live about 2000 miles away in CA, I won't be able to attend.

In this part of Iowa there are a number of towns and townships which bear the
names which have come from Germany, i.e. Sschleswig, Holstein, and Hanover.
The people living there often use the term "Flatlanders" when talking about
people from the farming areas. Does Platt mean Flat, or does the use simply
come from their similar sound?

Gale Bosche
Formerly Manilla, Iowa

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Re: [HN] PLATTDEUTCHE

Date: 2003/02/24 16:18:04
From: Cactus Flower <barbie8674(a)hotmail.com>





Dear People?
A concensus yet? PlatteDuestch?  Low German?

I think..means from the Low countries...ie..land is below sea level.

Same as in the U.S.A... The low countries are S.C. (Charleston), G.A. (Savannah!)...think about it..!!

<~~ does think Platte..[platteau], Simply means..Low Country..as in..BELOW Sea Level!!
Think about it!

From: THEBOSCHBOSCHE(a)aol.com
Reply-To: hannover-l(a)genealogy.net
To: hannover-l(a)genealogy.net
Subject: [HN] PLATTDEUTCHE
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 13:09:35 EST

Hi to all,

I was reading Uwe ErichsSon's posting about the "www.routes.de" site, when I
noted the name Maning.  Since it is a name I have seldom seen, I went to a
web site in the town of Manning, Iowa, which was about 10 miles from where I
grew up.

On the site "http://pionet.net/~heritag/calendar.htm"; I found on the calendar
of events for Mannings Octoberfest the following:  "Low German Conference
October 3-4-5, 2003."

If I was still living in the area, I would no doubt attend, but since I now
live about 2000 miles away in CA, I won't be able to attend.

In this part of Iowa there are a number of towns and townships which bear the
names which have come from Germany, i.e. Sschleswig, Holstein, and Hanover.
The people living there often use the term "Flatlanders" when talking about
people from the farming areas. Does Platt mean Flat, or does the use simply
come from their similar sound?

Gale Bosche
Formerly Manilla, Iowa

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Re: [HN] Lengerich - Hannover

Date: 2003/02/24 17:08:20
From: Cactus Flower <barbie8674(a)hotmail.com>

reply Lengerich - Hanover..name Drees/Dreas..

If later immigrant..perhaps could be the polish Drejas.. There were Dreas families in W.C. Illinois.

Perhaps  the province of Posen?

I am suggesting this, by no means is it fact. Any historians know Kongreish Hannover was ever called Provence Posen? If so...would be far to the east.








From: Werner.Honkomp(a)t-online.de (Werner Honkomp)
Reply-To: hannover-l(a)genealogy.net
To: hannover-l(a)genealogy.net
Subject: Re: [HN] Lengerich - Hannover
Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2003 15:04:03 +0100

Grossen Linden is a town in Hessen, far away from Hannover. There live also A Dreesen family.

The name could be Ludwig Dres or Drees.

Werner

> Hello George!

> The info that I have on the Dedeke and Schroeder Families ...I obtained
> from
> church records in Waterloo, IL. The church was United Church of Christ and
> also from obits that were in local newspapers.  The newspaper is where I
> found the name Leadwich Dres, Hanover. I have death records, baptismal
> records, etc.

> I have found their son in law and researched him back to the town of
> Grossen
> Linden and a German lady sent me so much info on him...all the way back to
> 1560 in church records along with pictures of the house that this line
> lived
> in...when in Germany. What good luck is this...I was so pleased!!!

> I pretty much have info from about 1850 to the present on the above family
> but, nothing prior to 1850. I was lucky enough to find someone who had
> pictures of these people.  I was so glad to get the pictures.

> I have checked ship records and cannot find them on a ship...maybe, it
> hasn't been transcribed yet.

> I don't know when they came to the U.S. or how/when they arrived...am
> still
> trying to find that info.

> Good luck!

> Pat


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Re: [HN] Lengerich - Hannover

Date: 2003/02/24 17:52:59
From: Cactus Flower <barbie8674(a)hotmail.com>

Dear Patricia,

I have seen the name Maria Schroeder..as a witness to a marriage in St. Louis, MO. The date of the marriage was 4 Sept. 1860.

MARRIAGE EVENT:

Shrine of St. Joseph Church, St. Louis Archdiocesan Parish Records, Film 1870935/Page 72/4 Sept. 1860. Family History Library, 35 N West Temple Street, Salt Lake City, Utah 84150 USA.

"[Eadene] Franciscus Grotepeller fil [Jococi] Schmalhorst et Ida Kuhlage una cunc Theresia Bismeier fil Christian Bismeier et Margaretha Rehmschnier coram me infra scripto et testibus Petro Kuhlage et Maria Schroeder. Jos Weber SJ."

I think the Grotepeller were from Wesewe? Westphalia?..I think a little to the west of Paderborn.

Barbie.




From: "Patricia Knight" <pknight1(a)fidnet.com>
Reply-To: hannover-l(a)genealogy.net
To: <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
Subject: Re: [HN] Lengerich - Hannover
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 17:30:52 -0600

Hello Werner!

My gggrandmother's name was Margaretha Schroeder b. July 10, 1835 and d. May
26, 1910 in St. Louis , MO.
Fredrich Dedeke was b. May 14, 1825 and d. April 9, 1900 in Waterloo, IL.

Pat
----- Original Message -----
From: "Werner Honkomp" <Werner.Honkomp(a)t-online.de>
To: <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 12:47 PM
Subject: Re: [HN] Lengerich - Hannover


>
> > My real question is this...my gggrandmother from Hanover...in her obit ,
> > it
> > stated that she was from Leadwich Dres, Hanover ...she died in Waterloo,
> > IL.
> > This might be the area (Lengerich) that they wrote...I am just grasping
at
> > straws since I have been told there is no such place.
>
> > Would this be the area of Hanover....crossing my fingers....that she
could
> > have been from Lengerich ?????
>
> What is the first and surname of your gggrandmother?
>
> I have some Drees in parish Lengerich.
>
> Werner
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Hannover-L mailing list
> Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l
>


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Re: [HN] Lengerich - Hannover Namen Schroder/ St. Louis

Date: 2003/02/24 18:14:24
From: Cactus Flower <barbie8674(a)hotmail.com>







From: "Cactus Flower" <barbie8674(a)hotmail.com>
Reply-To: hannover-l(a)genealogy.net
To: hannover-l(a)genealogy.net
Subject: Re: [HN] Lengerich - Hannover
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 10:52:58 -0600

Dear Patricia,

I have seen the name Maria Schroeder..as a witness to a marriage in St. Louis, MO. The date of the marriage was 4 Sept. 1860.

MARRIAGE EVENT:

Shrine of St. Joseph Church, St. Louis Archdiocesan Parish Records, Film 1870935/Page 72/4 Sept. 1860. Family History Library, 35 N West Temple Street, Salt Lake City, Utah 84150 USA.

"[Eadene] Franciscus Grotepeller fil [Jococi] Schmalhorst et Ida Kuhlage una cunc Theresia Bismeier fil Christian Bismeier et Margaretha Rehmschnier coram me infra scripto et testibus Petro Kuhlage et Maria Schroeder. Jos Weber SJ."

I think the Grotepeller were from Wesewe? Westphalia?..I think a little to the EAST of Paderborn.

Barbie.




From: "Patricia Knight" <pknight1(a)fidnet.com>
Reply-To: hannover-l(a)genealogy.net
To: <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
Subject: Re: [HN] Lengerich - Hannover
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 17:30:52 -0600

Hello Werner!

My gggrandmother's name was Margaretha Schroeder b. July 10, 1835 and d. May
26, 1910 in St. Louis , MO.
Fredrich Dedeke was b. May 14, 1825 and d. April 9, 1900 in Waterloo, IL.

Pat
----- Original Message -----
From: "Werner Honkomp" <Werner.Honkomp(a)t-online.de>
To: <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 12:47 PM
Subject: Re: [HN] Lengerich - Hannover


>
> > My real question is this...my gggrandmother from Hanover...in her obit ,
> > it
> > stated that she was from Leadwich Dres, Hanover ...she died in Waterloo,
> > IL.
> > This might be the area (Lengerich) that they wrote...I am just grasping
at
> > straws since I have been told there is no such place.
>
> > Would this be the area of Hanover....crossing my fingers....that she
could
> > have been from Lengerich ?????
>
> What is the first and surname of your gggrandmother?
>
> I have some Drees in parish Lengerich.
>
> Werner
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Hannover-L mailing list
> Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l
>


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Re: [HN] Lengerich - Hannover

Date: 2003/02/24 18:34:29
From: Patricia Knight <pknight1(a)fidnet.com>

Thank you, Barbie! Margaretha was Protestant and would have been married and
a Dedeke at that time.

Thanks again!

Pat
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cactus Flower" <barbie8674(a)hotmail.com>
To: <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
Sent: Monday, February 24, 2003 10:52 AM
Subject: Re: [HN] Lengerich - Hannover


> Dear Patricia,
>
> I have seen the name Maria Schroeder..as a witness to a marriage in St.
> Louis, MO.  The date of the marriage was 4 Sept. 1860.
>
> MARRIAGE EVENT:
>
> Shrine of St. Joseph Church, St. Louis Archdiocesan Parish Records, Film
> 1870935/Page 72/4 Sept. 1860. Family History Library, 35 N West Temple
> Street, Salt Lake City, Utah 84150  USA.
>
> "[Eadene] Franciscus Grotepeller fil [Jococi] Schmalhorst et Ida Kuhlage
una
> cunc Theresia Bismeier fil Christian Bismeier et Margaretha Rehmschnier
> coram me infra scripto et testibus Petro Kuhlage et Maria Schroeder. Jos
> Weber SJ."
>
> I think the Grotepeller were from Wesewe? Westphalia?..I think a little to
> the west of Paderborn.
>
> Barbie.
>
>
>
>
> >From: "Patricia Knight" <pknight1(a)fidnet.com>
> >Reply-To: hannover-l(a)genealogy.net
> >To: <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
> >Subject: Re: [HN] Lengerich - Hannover
> >Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 17:30:52 -0600
> >
> >Hello Werner!
> >
> >My gggrandmother's name was Margaretha Schroeder b. July 10, 1835 and d.
> >May
> >26, 1910 in St. Louis , MO.
> >Fredrich Dedeke was b. May 14, 1825 and d. April 9, 1900 in Waterloo, IL.
> >
> >Pat
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Werner Honkomp" <Werner.Honkomp(a)t-online.de>
> >To: <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
> >Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 12:47 PM
> >Subject: Re: [HN] Lengerich - Hannover
> >
> >
> > >
> > > > My real question is this...my gggrandmother from Hanover...in her
obit
> >,
> > > > it
> > > > stated that she was from Leadwich Dres, Hanover ...she died in
> >Waterloo,
> > > > IL.
> > > > This might be the area (Lengerich) that they wrote...I am just
> >grasping
> >at
> > > > straws since I have been told there is no such place.
> > >
> > > > Would this be the area of Hanover....crossing my fingers....that she
> >could
> > > > have been from Lengerich ?????
> > >
> > > What is the first and surname of your gggrandmother?
> > >
> > > I have some Drees in parish Lengerich.
> > >
> > > Werner
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Hannover-L mailing list
> > > Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> > > http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l
> > >
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Hannover-L mailing list
> >Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> >http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*.
> http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l
>



Re: [HN] PLATTDEUTSCHE...and they never spoke again

Date: 2003/02/24 18:43:55
From: Cactus Flower <barbie8674(a)hotmail.com>





Dear Karl,

I liked your explanation of Plattdeutsche..even though I always thought of Platt as a dialect..depending if one was a Northerner or a Southerner..however...used to have some old letters, written to my grandparents of Bergedorg/Hamburg..in German..I gave to a friend who speaks fluent German..and she couldn't read em! Her family was from Bonn,..mine was from Bergedorf.

Hers spoke high German, mine spoke/wrote low German. And yes..I was offended when she said that!..but the idea came to me..that it was the dialect..and the location..rather than class.

ut.. I'm sure class had something to do with it also..why else would they leave their home and come to America? They wanted something more.
My grandfather died in 1972.

My PlattDeutsh lower class German grandfather left my dad 4 houses and over $75,000.00 cash which in today's market..I don't know how much..but was a nice chunk of change. He always saved his money..rolled change, pennys even.

I think because he came to the U.S. in 1924 and lived through the depression, and I guess remembered the Bergedorf of the 1920's..after WWI when times were hard. He was lutheran..baptised at the old St. Peter and Paul Church in Bergedorf. He lived on Pole Street..(I think thats what Bergedorf Am. Pool 2 translates to), about 2 miles from St. Petri unde Pauli Kirche.

I have old photos from 1932 Bergedorf, Luneberg?, Cuxhaven..from a trip to home he made with my grandmother and uncle just a bit before the Nazi's took over, and one from 1947 at Cuxhaven..on the sea of a cousin I think? Her name was Annaliese Rindr? (I think the I has a dot over it.) A few older photos..I have no idea who the people are..but I think probobly family.

A neat picture in the country someplace in Germany..perhaps near Wittenberg..and the kids are wearing wreaths..like a leaf baldric type thing..maybe from the Olympics..or..perhaps a sign of peace. Like figs or something? I don't know..Would that be some kind of holiday maybe?

Many of the pictures I think are from tourist type visit..like Schloss Bernberg..some kind of a skylift? I can read on the back where developed.

Barbie









From: klaus-moni-vahlbruch(a)t-online.de (Vahlbruch)
Reply-To: hannover-l(a)genealogy.net
To: hannover-l(a)genealogy.net
Subject: Re: [HN] PLATTDEUTSCHE...and they never spoke again
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 20:47:49 +0100

Maureen schrieb:
>
> Was this variation confined to one part of Germany or one class of Germans?
> I ask because I have heard that one branch of my mother's family called
> another branch "Plattdeutsche" and they never spoke again. But I don't know > which side made the charge, nor who were the accused! One side was Bremen
> and Hannover Evangelical Lutheran ----- and the other side was from the
> Eifel in Rhineland-Pfalz and Roman Catholic.  Can anyone help solve the
> puzzle:  who were the arrogant name-callers?
> Maureen
>
> _______________________________________________
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Hi Maureen,
hi anybody else in the list.

I´ve read anything my colleges told you, but I think nobody answert
your Question:
"I ask because I have heard that one branch of my mother's family
called another branch "Plattdeutsche" and they never spoke again."

Your observation is quite right. Such things happen.

You should now a litle bit about me an where I come from so you´ll
understand better what I´ll tell you about the Plattdeutsche /
Hochdeutsche.

I was born on a big farm 200 Hektar, which is very large. This farm is
next to the danish border near the town of Flensburg. Look at the map.
It is the northest of north germany. A typecally
Plattdeutsch-region!!! They still speak PLATTDEUTSCH today on the
street.

On this farm there were about 20 - 30 workers. All theese workers
spoke PLATTDEUTSCH as their mother tongue. My father was the boss of
all. He not only was a farmer, he studied agriculture and ecconomies
in the university, the workers learnd their job by dooing the job.
They´ve never seen a highschol inside.

In our family everybody spoke HOCHDEUTSCH as you may heare in TV or
Radio.
In the family of all theese workers everybody spoke PLATTDEUTSCH.

To talk to each other on the  farmyard sometime the HOCHDEUTSCH
speaking had to translate into PLATTDEUTSCH otherwise nobody would
have understand you.

We where 5 childrin, I´m the yongest one, bort in 1945. There were 3
sisters and 2 broters. Two of my sisters could´t speak PLATTDEUTSCH
they allways talked HOCHDEUTSCH to anybody. So many times the workers
said: "Theese girls don´t speak like we do, they are snooty."

On the other hand, all people in the town normaly spoke HOCHDEUTSCH,
especialy the officials. So when a workerman came into town, to go for
the court the judge spoke HOCHDEUTSCH and the worker didn´t
understand. If the workerman had to speek he tried to chanche his
language from PLATTDEUTSCH into HOCHDEUTSCH. This was very very funny
to listen. The workerman was ashamed because anybody was smiling or
laughing.

So there was a big gap, difference, between those who spoke
plattdeutsch (the PLATTDEUSCHe) and those who spoke hochdeutsch (the
HOCHDEUTSCHe). It depends on income, on birth, an social rank, first
class or under class, Boss or workerman, etc. This gap you might find
even in a family.

So my family lived on the east side of the contry of Schleswig
Holstein witch is a rich farmland. Another part of my family lived on
the west side of this contry Schleswig Holstein, witch is rich too.
But right in the middle of this county the soil is bad, no wheat is
growing there, cattle dont have enough food. So the farmer in this
part of the country where poor.

My eldest sister merried a farmer from this poor part of Schleswig
Holstein. Anybody in this region spoke PLATTDEUTSCH. So my sister
learned to speak PLATTDEUTSCH too. Within fwe years she couldn´t speak
HOCHDEUTSCH anymore. Her sentences where full mistakes (as my english
whriting here!!!). So the HOCHDEUTSCH-speaking people said:
"Sie kann ja nicht mal richtig deutsch sprechen!"
which means: She isn´t able to speak german correctly anymore.
And the PLATTDEUTSCH-speaking people said:
"She can´t speak like we do, she doesn´t belong to us!"

This feelings of different way of live, depending of social classes or
something like this, came out in the way you are talking to the
people.
There is a famous songwriter "Hannes Wader" still singing his songs in
PLATTDEUTSCH. Some phrase of a song is:
"Min good he kann keen plattdütsch mehr un´ he versteid uns nich!"
which means:
My good, he is unable to speak our langueage (platt) so he doesn´t
understand us any longer.

So you said:
"But I don't know which side made the charge, nor who were the
accused!"
Your are very clear in your question.
The answer is:
Both sides made the charge and both sides were accused!

So the reason is, that PLATTDEUTSCH is a real language like danish or
english. Phonetic is quite near HOCHdeutsch, some parts come from
other languages and some of the expressions you´ll find better in
englisch rather than in german. But the syntax is different and there
are a lot of different vocabularies.

Oh my good - writing all this stuff in english is hard work. Please
forgive all the mistakes.
It is like:
Oh my good he studied english at highschool an now he isn´t able to
wright some smal sentenses.

----

So it might happen that one part of your family called the other "The
PLATTDEUTSCHE" which means: They belong to the under-class. The other
part called them "The HOCHDEUTSCHE" witch means they seems to be
arrogant.

Even religion may cause thuch feelings: In our region the Roman
Catholics are the minority, they call them "arogant". The maiority are
Lutherean, nobody cares, that´s OK.  It´s nothing else than a normal
prejudice, like it is in any other part of the world. Between
HOCHDEUTSCHe and PLATTDEUTSCHe there are no problems now, but when I
was a litle child, I knew exectly the differences. But I was able to
speak PLATT- like I could speak HOCHdeutsch.
I was a lucky child in a lucky family with a lot of freinds among the
workers on our farm.

I hope I´ve made it a little bit clear what the feelings are.

Klaus (Vahlbruch)


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Re: [HN] Stagge Stockum/Osnabrck

Date: 2003/02/24 19:06:53
From: Cactus Flower <barbie8674(a)hotmail.com>





Dear Paul,
If you email the statsarchive and request the record..(recall the number) and info listed..they will mail you the information with a bill. I think the cost of my ancestors aswander was $17.00 euro..about $11.00 dollars at that time. You then need to have your bank draw a check in euros for the amount. I think all together it cost about 25 dollars. Might be easier if you write a check on a credit card account..and let them calculate the amount..though I never tried that.

Maybe you could ask them to take a visa or mastercard number..for the amount, and then I think the banks automatically do it.

Would be nice to have advise on this subject.

Barbie

From: "Paul Scheele" <pfsco1(a)attbi.com>
Reply-To: hannover-l(a)genealogy.net
To: <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
Subject: Re: [HN] Stagge Stockum/Osnabrück
Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2003 14:07:18 -0700




> Fred,
>     Isn't it fun?  I think we  may get somewhere yet.  You asked why I
> picked Lengerich and yes, it was because of the 06 in the left hand
column.
> I just looked at all the numbers and see that the first town on the list
> starts at 1 and the last town with a 5 digit number. So, what we have to
> do is guess the number in a range until we hit the right one.  I would
think
> that other numbers may somehow connect to a certain ship or destination or > date or some such thing. All these records are for passports, I believe. > Trouble for me is, I found nothing for my people in the search of all of
> them.  Oh,  well, it will be helpful in some cases  and not in others.
> Common names would have  to call for records, since they don't  give
> birthdates  or anything else.
>      Yes, I, too,  have  to tend  to  other tasks today.  But I'm happy
that
> the picture is getting a wee  bit clearer. Thank you, Fred!
> Barbara
>
>
I have been following the discourse between Barbara and Fred with int