Monatsdigest

Re: Bielefeld

Date: 1998/11/01 09:35:28
From: Werner Honkomp <Werner.Honkomp(a)t-online.de>

JOHNFUES(a)aol.com schrieb:
> Greetings!
>
> Could anyone please tell me if the town of Bielefeld was in the Kingdom of
> Hannover in the 18th century?  Thanks.
>
> John Fuester
------------------------------------
Westphalia (including Bielefeld) was 1807 - 1813 the Kingdom of Westfalen under 
Jerome Bonaparte. Since 1815 to Preußen (Prussia). 1946 a part of 
Nordrhein-Westfalen.

Werner
-------------------------------------------------------------
Werner Honkomp         eMail: werner.honkomp(a)t-online.de
Ziegelhofstr. 35B    Homepage: http://home.t-online.de/home/werner.honkomp/
26121 Oldenburg      Genealogie: http://home.t-online.de/home/ww.honkomp/
GERMANY


Re: Emigrants from Ost HEIDMARK

Date: 1998/11/01 15:49:18
From: Linda Marks Pauling <11870(a)www1.utech.net>

Fred,
There is no Layman or Lehmann listed. There is however a listing for:
LU(umlaut)HMANN, Dorothee, age 31, born about 1817. Emigrated 1848.
Village Ostenholz.
LU(umlaut)HMANN, Johann Heinrich age 31, born about 1820. Emigrated
1851. Village Ostenholz.

Linda


Fred Layman wrote:
>, I am looking for my great, great, great grandfather Frederick
> Layman (LEHMANN.is the original spelling) He was born around 1830 and
> immigrated to the USA sometime around 1852= 1855.
>

Re: Lehmann Immigration 1852-1855

Date: 1998/11/01 19:08:41
From: SUSAN EDGELL <susanedgell(a)home.com>

Fred,

There are several Frederick Lehmanns listed on my FTM CD#354.  Where did
your Lehmann end up?  Do you know if he arrived in New York, PA, Texas?
I can look him up for you if you can narrow it down a little.
Susan

Re: Emigrants from Ost HEIDMARK

Date: 1998/11/01 20:14:43
From: Jim Amaral <jamaral(a)columbus.rr.com>

Fred, Have you checked in with the Lehmann Hardware folks in Kidron &
Mt.Hope OH? I know Kidron is doing a communal genealogy, and the Lehmann
people are world-famous for supplying the Amish & others with non-electric
appliances

JimA

Linda Marks Pauling wrote:

> Fred,
> There is no Layman or Lehmann listed. There is however a listing for:
> LU(umlaut)HMANN, Dorothee, age 31, born about 1817. Emigrated 1848.
> Village Ostenholz.
> LU(umlaut)HMANN, Johann Heinrich age 31, born about 1820. Emigrated
> 1851. Village Ostenholz.
>
> Linda
>
> Fred Layman wrote:
> >, I am looking for my great, great, great grandfather Frederick
> > Layman (LEHMANN.is the original spelling) He was born around 1830 and
> > immigrated to the USA sometime around 1852= 1855.
> >


Re: Bielefeld

Date: 1998/11/02 02:31:52
From: JOHNFUES <JOHNFUES(a)aol.com>

Greetings and thanks a lot for the information on Bielefeld.  I have been
trying to locate the ancestry of a George Friedrich Schaaf, who was pastor in
Backemoor from 1749 to 1778.  In the Backemoor OSB it indicated he was from
Bielefeld.

It also indicated he was born in Quakenbrüch and married Elisabeth Beata
Lönings in Borgholzhausen.  Could you tell me if those towns are also in
Westfalen?  Thanks.

Also, any information on the ancestry of Pastor Schaaf or Elisabeth Lönings
would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks again,

John Fuester


Re: NEUHAUS

Date: 1998/11/02 03:06:50
From: mnorton <mnorton(a)visnetinc.com>

My Catharina Neuhaus was in the Altenbruch area before 1818.  She married
Wolderich Kroencke and daughter Freuda was born in Altenbruck.  Some of the
Neuhaus failies are in the Cuxhaven records.  Good luck.
Madge Norton    mnorton(a)visnetinc.com

----------
> From: JANSGEN(a)aol.com
> To: hannover-l(a)genealogy.net
> Subject: NEUHAUS
> Date: Friday, October 30, 1998 7:33 AM
> 
> Looking for anyone that is researching NEUHAUS. My great grandmother Lena
> Neuhaus was born 8 March 1949 in Hannover. She came to Cincinnati, Ohio
in
> 1872. I am looking for the town where she was born and the names of her
> parents.
> TIA
> Janet
> JansGen(a)aol.com

Re: NEUHAUS

Date: 1998/11/02 18:58:47
From: JANSGEN <JANSGEN(a)aol.com>

Thanks for the Neuhaus information. Can you tell me where Altenbruck is? Did
you find church records for that area?
Janet

Meyers and Miller from Kirchdorf

Date: 1998/11/03 15:13:07
From: Elissa Zurbuchen <eez1(a)psu.edu>

Hi:
        I just joined the list and I am looking for possible leads on how
to track down my ancestors.  I haven't had much luck, considering the
common surname of Meyer and Miller - but I'm hoping that I've come across
some information that will make it a little easier.  My ancestors settled
in the La Crosse county area (specifically Barre Mills) of Wisconsin, with
other people from the same village of origin called "Kirchdorf", which is
supposed to be west-northwest of Hanover and somewhat south of Bremen.  The
church they attended there was "Ev. Luth. Kirchengemeinde Kirchdorf".
        Is this a place that actually exists/existed?  Does the LDS have
information on small villages and their churches - or just larger towns?
        If anyone is interested, I am trying to find my gggrandfather
Heinrich Christoph Meyer (1841-1922) who was born in "Germany" to Ludwick
Meyer and Gudred Breggeman.  I believe that a lot of Meyers came over
together, but I can't determine how they were related - or if they were
related at all.  Heinrich married a Marie Miller/Müller who was born in
Milwaukee.  I believe that her parents may be from the same region as well
(though I am not at all certain).  Their names were:  Johann/John
Miller/Müller (1816-1886) and Julianne Schnieder/Snyder (?-1879) who
immigrated in about 1847....  I believe they were related to other Millers
(as that seems to be the version of the surname they went with) in Barre
Mills - but I have no way of confirming this.
        Thank you so much in advance for your help!  -Elissa Zurbuchen
eez1(a)psu.edu
http://www.personal.psu.edu/users/e/e/eez1





Re: Meyers and Miller from Kirchdorf

Date: 1998/11/03 16:56:30
From: W. Fred Rump <fred(a)k2nesoft.com>

On 3 Nov 98, at 9:14, Elissa Zurbuchen wrote about Meyers and Miller from Kirchdorf:

Date sent:      	Tue, 3 Nov 1998 09:14:04 -0500
To:             	hannover-l(a)genealogy.net
From:           	eez1(a)psu.edu (Elissa Zurbuchen)
Subject:        	Meyers and Miller from Kirchdorf
Send reply to:  	hannover-l(a)genealogy.net

> Hi:
>         I just joined the list and I am looking for possible leads on how
> to track down my ancestors.  I haven't had much luck, considering the
> common surname of Meyer and Miller - but I'm hoping that I've come across
> some information that will make it a little easier.  My ancestors settled
> in the La Crosse county area (specifically Barre Mills) of Wisconsin, with
> other people from the same village of origin called "Kirchdorf", which is
> supposed to be west-northwest of Hanover and somewhat south of Bremen. 
> The church they attended there was "Ev. Luth. Kirchengemeinde Kirchdorf".
>         Is this a place that actually exists/existed?  Does the LDS have
> information on small villages and their churches - or just larger towns?

I count 24 different Kirchdorf places in Germany. That seems to 
match you Meyer name in being all over. :-) The word simply 
means village by the church and obviously lots of them grew up 
over time to hold on to that description.

My suggestion to you would be to get yourself a good map - a 
travel atlas maybe - and plot out just where all the kirchdorfs are in 
the Lower saxony area. Once you know all the possibilities you 
can then narrow your search a little more specifically by looking for 
the LDS records for that place. Yes, they would have records. They 
do for most places. . 


Fred



26 Warren St. Beverly, NJ 08010 or
4788 Corian Court at 4555 Southern Breeze Drive, Naples, FL 34114 or
6281 Hwy 20, Foster, OR 97345
fred(a)compu.com, fred(a)k2nesoft.com, FredRump(a)home.com
http://www.k2nesoft.com/~fred 

Re: NEUHAUS

Date: 1998/11/03 21:11:26
From: Robert F. Niehaus <rniehaus(a)mindspring.com>

At 12:55 PM 11/2/98 EST, you wrote:
>Thanks for the Neuhaus information. Can you tell me where Altenbruck is? Did
>you find church records for that area?
>Janet
Janet,  I haven't seen Altenbruck, and email locator site geo(a)genealogy.net
had no matches for it. Good luck. I know your search for NEUHAUS info has
been long.   Bob

Re: NEUHAUS

Date: 1998/11/03 21:17:43
From: Robert F. Niehaus <rniehaus(a)mindspring.com>

At 12:55 PM 11/2/98 EST, you wrote:
>Thanks for the Neuhaus information. Can you tell me where Altenbruck is? Did
>you find church records for that area?
>Janet
>
Janet, I just finished searching four rolls of microfilm from LDS of
Catholic Church records for Neunkirchen, Amt Damme, Oldenburg, from 1650 to
1890.  The local towns included are:

Neunkirchen
Bieste
Gupprehausen, or something close to this
Horsten
Nellinghoff

No listings for NEUHAUS in these records.          Bob

Re: Bielefeld

Date: 1998/11/03 21:43:09
From: Werner Honkomp <Werner.Honkomp(a)t-online.de>

JOHNFUES(a)aol.com schrieb:
> Greetings and thanks a lot for the information on Bielefeld.  I have been
> trying to locate the ancestry of a George Friedrich Schaaf, who was pastor in
> Backemoor from 1749 to 1778.  In the Backemoor OSB it indicated he was from
> Bielefeld.
---------------------------->
Backemoor is located in Ostfriesland.
>
> It also indicated he was born in Quakenbrüch
------------------>
Quakenbrück is a small town in Landkreis (county) Osnabrück, it is a part of 
Niedersachsen (Lower Saxony), 50 km northerly from Osnabrück.

 and married Elisabeth Beata
> Lönings in Borgholzhausen.  Could you tell me if those towns are also in
> Westfalen?  Thanks.
-------------------->
Borgholzhausen is a small town in Westphalia between Osnabrück (20 km) and 
Bielefeld (20 km) near boarder to Lower Saxony.
>
Altenbruch is a village to Cuxhaven.

The name Löning is most existing in the area of Ostfriesland/Lingen,
here some addresses in Backemoor/Rauderfehn:

Löning, Hermann Landw. (04952) 1372
  Karkpadd 2
  26817 Rhauderfehn

Löning, Janna (04952) 8557
  3. Südwieke 162
  26817 Rhauderfehn

Löning, Jens (04952) 81571
  Batzenweg 9
  26817 Rhauderfehn

Löning, Jörg u. Silke (04967) 1454
  Forststr. 81
  26817 Rhauderfehn

Löning, Johannes (04955) 5172
  Backemoorer Str. 126
  26817 Rhauderfehn



Werner
------------------------------------------------------------
Werner Honkomp         eMail: werner.honkomp(a)t-online.de
Ziegelhofstr. 35B    Homepage: http://home.t-online.de/home/werner.honkomp/
26121 Oldenburg      Genealogie: http://home.t-online.de/home/ww.honkomp/
GERMANY


Re: NEUHAUS

Date: 1998/11/03 23:03:40
From: JANSGEN <JANSGEN(a)aol.com>

Bob,
Thanks for checking Neuhaus in those films. Are you researching Neuhaus or
Niehaus? From what everyone tells me, Neuhaus is a very common name in
Germany. They said that I should research more in the U.S. and get a definte
town in Hannover.
I have searched this family since 1990 in Cincinnati, Ohio and everything that
I have tried turns up nothing. All I have is parents unknown and birthplace
Hannover. It's like searching for a needle in a haystack.
I hope you have been more successful.
Janet

Neuhaus

Date: 1998/11/04 03:27:50
From: Stopan <Stopan(a)aol.com>

Hi Janet,

F.Y.I. There was a Wilhemina Neuhaus m. to a Reinhard who's death was reported
in Cincinnati's "Volksblatt" 1846-1918, on 21 Oct 1910 - the only female
'sans' Neuhaus listed.
She was 71 yrs -- 6m - 12 d old. - born 1839.

There were also Carl, Edward, Fransizka, Friedrich, Katherine, Louis, Paul,
Theodor and another Wilhemena Neuhaus listed. 

Advise if you want b. & d. info on any of these.

Gary Stoltman
Mercerville, NJ

Re: Neuhaus

Date: 1998/11/04 04:05:08
From: JANSGEN <JANSGEN(a)aol.com>

Gary,
Yes, I have found all these Neuhaus listings but can not connect to them.
My great grandmother was Lena Neuhaus who died July 1, 1917. Her obit was not
listed in any of the German newspapers. I found a very short obit in the
Cincinnati Enquirer. It also stated " New York papers please copy". Still
haven't found any connection to New York.
Thanks for your help.
Janet

Re: NEUHAUS

Date: 1998/11/04 16:01:16
From: Robert F. Niehaus <rniehaus(a)mindspring.com>

At 05:02 PM 11/3/98 EST, you wrote:
>Bob,
>Thanks for checking Neuhaus in those films. Are you researching Neuhaus or
>Niehaus? From what everyone tells me, Neuhaus is a very common name in
>Germany. They said that I should research more in the U.S. and get a definte
>town in Hannover.
>I have searched this family since 1990 in Cincinnati, Ohio and everything
that
>I have tried turns up nothing. All I have is parents unknown and birthplace
>Hannover. It's like searching for a needle in a haystack.
>I hope you have been more successful.
>Janet
>
Janet,   We had this discussion last year, I believe.
         My family is NIEHAUS.  I have also looked in the records for
            Neuhaus, for you, but no names as yet.     Bob

Re: NEUHAUS

Date: 1998/11/04 19:57:22
From: Werner Honkomp <Werner.Honkomp(a)t-online.de>

JANSGEN(a)aol.com schrieb:
> Bob,
> Thanks for checking Neuhaus in those films. Are you researching Neuhaus or
> Niehaus? From what everyone tells me, Neuhaus is a very common name in
> Germany. They said that I should research more in the U.S. and get a definte
> town in Hannover.
> I have searched this family since 1990 in Cincinnati, Ohio and everything that
> I have tried turns up nothing. All I have is parents unknown and birthplace
> Hannover. It's like searching for a needle in a haystack.
> I hope you have been more successful.
> Janet
-------------------------------->
Have you searched the passenger-lists of Glazier/Filby ?
Maybe there you can find where she come from.

Werner
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Werner Honkomp         eMail: werner.honkomp(a)t-online.de
Ziegelhofstr. 35B    Homepage: http://home.t-online.de/home/werner.honkomp/
26121 Oldenburg      Genealogie: http://home.t-online.de/home/ww.honkomp/
GERMANY


KLAGES Johnann Valentine; DEU>USA; 1748

Date: 1998/11/04 22:03:28
From: Joseph V. Clawges <jclawges(a)bellsouth.net>

KLAGES Johann Valentin; DEU>USA; 1748

Arrived Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA 9/1748 aboard ship Edinburgh
which sailed from Rotterdam
via Portsmouth.

He was unmarried, occupation painter, estimated birth time 1720-30.
Place of birth Hangover, Lower
Saxony.

Am attempting to pick up his trail in Germany, looking for any records
of him and/or ancestors.  Do you have any suggestions on where to start?

Thank you.

Joseph Valentine Clawges, III
jclawges(a)bellsouth.net

Layman (LEHMANN)

Date: 1998/11/05 06:41:15
From: Fred Layman <sgo(a)adweb.net>

HELP! I just found out that my G,G,G, Grandfather FREDERICK LEHMANN ( I am fairly sure this is the correct original spelling of our last name) may have come from Baden, Germany. I was also told that he arrived in the USA via Liverpool, England. As for the year, all I have been able to find out is that it would have been around the middle 1850's.
 
Any suggestions as to the best way to follow this up would be very appreciated.
 
Thanks
 
Fred Layman

Re: Layman (LEHMANN)

Date: 1998/11/05 14:10:18
From: Arnold Lang <arnielang(a)worldnet.att.net>

> Fred Layman wrote:
> 
> HELP! I just found out that my G,G,G, Grandfather FREDERICK LEHMANN ( I
> am fairly sure this is the correct original spelling of our last name)
> may have come from Baden, Germany. I was also told that he arrived in the
> USA via Liverpool, England. As for the year, all I have been able to find
> out is that it would have been around the middle 1850's.
> 
> Any suggestions as to the best way to follow this up would be very
> appreciated.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Fred Layman

I would suggest that you search the Hamburg emigration passenger lists for
that period.  Many emigrants from Hamburg sailed first to Hull and then
took the train to Liverpool.  They then boarded another ship which took
them to the U.S.  The lists containing these passengers are called the
Hamburg "Indirect" Passenger Lists.

These lists generally include the ancestral home of the emigrants.  They
are indexed and are available at the LDS Family History Centers.  Search
under film number 1049068 in their catalog for the Indirect Index.  Let me
know if you need further information.
-- 
Arnold Lang
arnielang(a)worldnet.att.net
Visit the Research Guide to Immigration and Ships Passenger Lists at:
http://home.att.net/~arnielang

Re: Layman (LEHMANN)

Date: 1998/11/05 15:04:31
From: Bob Wall <bgw3133(a)usac.net>

Fred;

Have you looked at any of the Mormon records for LEHMANN to see if you
can connect.  My son's-in-law LEHMANN grandmother was born in what was
East Germany.  If your line is of that area perhaps you can find what
you need in their/others records turned in to the Mormon church.
However, it seems your family came earlier. This grandmother is still
living so was b. about 1908.
LEHMANN is also a Jewish name. I had a doctor with the name.

Good luck,
Jean W.

Good luck,
Jean W

> Fred Layman wrote:
> 
> HELP! I just found out that my G,G,G, Grandfather FREDERICK LEHMANN (
> I am fairly sure this is the correct original spelling of our last
> name) may have come from Baden, Germany. I was also told that he
> arrived in the USA via Liverpool, England. As for the year, all I have
> been able to find out is that it would have been around the middle
> 1850's.
> 
> Any suggestions as to the best way to follow this up would be very
> appreciated.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Fred Layman

Re: Layman (LEHMANN)

Date: 1998/11/06 00:11:11
From: Werner Honkomp <Werner.Honkomp(a)t-online.de>

Fred Layman schrieb:
> HELP! I just found out that my G,G,G, Grandfather FREDERICK LEHMANN ( I am
>  fairly sure this is the correct original spelling of our last name) may have
>  come from Baden, Germany. I was also told that he arrived in the USA via
>  Liverpool, England. As for the year, all I have been able to find out is
>  that it would have been around the middle 1850's.
------------------------>
We have two BADEN in Germany:

- a small village Baden, a part of Achim county Verden/Lower Saxony
  (emigrated most via Bremen/Bremerhaven)
- the town Baden-Baden, south of Germany
  (emigrated most via Le Havre or Rotterdam)

Werner
----------------------------------------------------------
Werner Honkomp         eMail: werner.honkomp(a)t-online.de
Ziegelhofstr. 35B    Homepage: http://home.t-online.de/home/werner.honkomp/
26121 Oldenburg      Genealogie: http://home.t-online.de/home/ww.honkomp/
GERMANY


Hanover emmigrants

Date: 1998/11/06 08:29:03
From: beattie <beattie(a)quantum.net.au>

Hi all,

I've been lurking for a short time and am interested in the discussion
regarding immigration from Hanover to Lancashire.  

I have a family with the surname KLINGENBERG who had a child born circa 1859
in Germany or Hanover and then a child born 4 February 1860 in Manchester
Lancashire. 

I'm in Australia and can get to an LDS library so I would like to order a
film as someone has already mentioned that the records are available that
way.  Does anyone know if any indexing has been done for the years 1859 to
1860 or what else I could look at to help me.  

Judy 
Genealogists don't die they just lose their census.


Re: Hanover emmigrants

Date: 1998/11/06 14:44:12
From: steve wehling <al78412(a)caller.infi.net>

> 
> I'm in Australia and can get to an LDS library so I would like to order a
> film as someone has already mentioned that the records are available that
> way.  Does anyone know if any indexing has been done for the years 1859 to
> 1860 or what else I could look at to help me.
> 
> Judy
>Hi Judy
Our group found the village our people came from from Obits in the towns
that they died in our case the obits were printed in the German
publications of Cincinnati and their home town of Rieste, Hannover was
listed, we then went to the LDS for Catholic Church records of the
village. 
                            Good Luck
                            Steve Wehling

Re: Hanover emmigrants

Date: 1998/11/06 16:54:41
From: Rowena White <herbrow(a)pld.com>

steve wehling wrote:
They found the village our people came from from Obits in the towns
> that they died in our case the obits were printed in the German
> publications of Cincinnati and their home town of Rieste, Hannover was
> listed, we then went to the LDS for Catholic Church records of the
> village.

Steve, how do I find and translate these German publications from
Cincinnati?  I had g g grandfather George Henry Nodurft and wife
Elizabeth Miller.  Their families lived in Cincinattie from ca
1816-1830.  Have been unable to locate any material from Cincinatti.

Rowena
>                             Good Luck
>                             Steve Wehling

Re: Hanover emmigrants

Date: 1998/11/06 21:10:46
From: Robert M Scharf <rmscharf(a)ocsnet.net>

Judy, The best way to start at a Family History Center is to go there and
talk with a staff member about what you are trying to do.  You can search by
surname or location and find records of births, christenings, marriages and
deaths on microfilms taken of the originals.  It may take a while to get the
films, but once you have them, you can go item by item, year by year, til
you find what you're looking for.  




At 07:20 AM 11/6/98 -0800, you wrote:
>> 
>> I'm in Australia and can get to an LDS library so I would like to order a
>> film as someone has already mentioned that the records are available that
>> way.  Does anyone know if any indexing has been done for the years 1859 to
>> 1860 or what else I could look at to help me.

>


Westerdon, England

Date: 1998/11/06 22:05:00
From: Stopan <Stopan(a)aol.com>

Hello all,

My g-grand slipped out of Hannover in 1854 thru Le Havre. The ship was out of
Charleston, S.C. and I assumed it was transporting cotton to Le Havre. After
picking up passengers in Le Havre, it stopped in Westerdon, England before
sailing to NYC. 

Any ideas on why the stop in Westerdon? I assume it could have been for
machinery or equipment of some kind as the manifest doesn't show English
names. Was this a fairly normal stop for ships to make in that era? 

Thanks,

Gary Stoltman
Mercerville, NJ

STOLTMAN(N), RITTER, SHOFSTALL, SPECHT (St. Louis)

Re: Hanover emmigrants

Date: 1998/11/06 22:22:28
From: Jillwall <Jillwall(a)aol.com>

Cincinnati record problem.
I too have spent 3 years trying to find records in Cincinnati-- to no avail.
My gr grandfather, Frederick Wilhelm Voss, b. 1830 (unk. village in Hannover)
settled in Cincinnati about 1851. He married Ferdinandine Menn, who had
emigrated from Burgsteinfurt, Westfalia with her parents in 1846 there and 13
Feb. 1857 had their first child, Anna Sophia Voss (my grandmother there). He
filed for citizenship in Feb, 1858.
Months later they moved to Ky. and I have contact with descendants and
obtained several records there. He obtained citizenship there 1864. They were
protestant.
I've been unable to get either marriage, or birth records and the citizenship
application didn't contain a home village. Ky. didn't keep death records when
he died in 1886, and microfilms of  his local paper don't go back that far
--I'm stymied in getting German records without  his home village. Voss is a
very common name throughout Germany.
Any suggestions gratefully accepted. Mary Wallace.
 

Re: Layman (LEHMANN)

Date: 1998/11/07 01:53:43
From: Kilowat357 <Kilowat357(a)aol.com>

A good book for this sort of thing is "They Came in Ships" by John Coletta,
often available at your public library.  A good problem-solving book, better
than most.

Kayle
San Diego CA

Layman (LEHMANN)

Date: 1998/11/07 03:32:14
From: Fred Layman <sgo(a)adweb.net>

Thanks to everyone that gave suggestions in my search of Frederick H. Layman (Lehmann). Any ideas and /or suggestions is very much appreciate. I feel the information I was given by a member of family that he heard he come from Baden, Germany may have been incorrect. The information that I have been able to gather so far such as from his military records from the Civil War show  he immigrated from Hannover, Germany. I am fairly sure that he did immigrate to the USA via England in the middle 1850's. It is also believed that his father's name was also Frederick and that he was an officer in the Imperial Prussian Army.
 
Thanks again
Fred Layman

Re: Hanover emmigrants

Date: 1998/11/07 06:20:11
From: SHAR1313 <SHAR1313(a)aol.com>

Since I'm new at this, I've been reading and observing everyone's
correspondence for some time now. 

Someone referenced German  publications of Cincinnati - can anyone explain
what these were?  I have a copy of an obituary printed in German for my great-
great grandfather Gerard Herman Kroeger (born November 20, 1815/Province
Hannover). 

I've been curious about this "German newspaper" as it contains an extensive
article/obit that gave me valuable information regarding my geneology, but
left many questions unanswered.  Since my clan appears to have settled in
Cincinnati after coming from Germany in 1846, I'm assuming this obit is from
there. There is no date or publication name on the article, though it does
reference that he was the uncle of the editor of the newspaper.  

Are these old newspapers available anywhere that I could research further?
Any helpful hints from anyone would be greatly appreciated.

~Sharon Kroeger Howes
Shar1313(a)aol.com

Re: Hanover emmigrants

Date: 1998/11/07 13:19:38
From: dlheller <dlheller(a)fuse.net>

SHAR1313(a)aol.com wrote:
> 
> Since I'm new at this, I've been reading and observing everyone's
> correspondence for some time now.
> 
> Someone referenced German  publications of Cincinnati - can anyone explain
> what these were?  I have a copy of an obituary printed in German for my great-
> great grandfather Gerard Herman Kroeger (born November 20, 1815/Province
> Hannover).
> 
> I've been curious about this "German newspaper" as it contains an extensive
> article/obit that gave me valuable information regarding my geneology, but
> left many questions unanswered.  Since my clan appears to have settled in
> Cincinnati after coming from Germany in 1846, I'm assuming this obit is from
> there. There is no date or publication name on the article, though it does
> reference that he was the uncle of the editor of the newspaper.
> 
> Are these old newspapers available anywhere that I could research further?
> Any helpful hints from anyone would be greatly appreciated.
> 
> ~Sharon Kroeger Howes
> Shar1313(a)aol.com
Those German newspapers, Volksblatt and Volksfreund(SP?) are at the main
Cincinnati Public Library, books by Jeff Herbert has indexed them and
others for birth, death, marriage etc. He lists page that the person is
mentioned on. Not sure if copies can be had thru the LDS.
DaveSHAR1313(a)aol.com wrote:
> 
> Since I'm new at this, I've been reading and observing everyone's
> correspondence for some time now.
> 
> Someone referenced German  publications of Cincinnati - can anyone explain
> what these were?  I have a copy of an obituary printed in German for my great-
> great grandfather Gerard Herman Kroeger (born November 20, 1815/Province
> Hannover).
> 
> I've been curious about this "German newspaper" as it contains an extensive
> article/obit that gave me valuable information regarding my geneology, but
> left many questions unanswered.  Since my clan appears to have settled in
> Cincinnati after coming from Germany in 1846, I'm assuming this obit is from
> there. There is no date or publication name on the article, though it does
> reference that he was the uncle of the editor of the newspaper.
> 
> Are these old newspapers available anywhere that I could research further?
> Any helpful hints from anyone would be greatly appreciated.
> 
> ~Sharon Kroeger Howes
> Shar1313(a)aol.com

Re: Westerdon, England

Date: 1998/11/07 15:36:02
From: Robert M Scharf <rmscharf(a)ocsnet.net>

Gary,  Was that ship by chance the Shawmut Cachelot?  My wifes ggrandfather
left Havre in 1854 after leaving Lorch, Wurttemburg.  I have not, as yet,
found the port that he entered the US.  He went to Cincinnati and became the
chief cooper at Proctor and Gamble.

At 04:03 PM 11/6/98 EST, you wrote:
>Hello all,
>
>My g-grand slipped out of Hannover in 1854 thru Le Havre. The ship was out of
>Charleston, S.C. and I assumed it was transporting cotton to Le Havre. After
>picking up passengers in Le Havre, it stopped in Westerdon, England before
>sailing to NYC. 
>
>Any ideas on why the stop in Westerdon? I assume it could have been for
>machinery or equipment of some kind as the manifest doesn't show English
>names. Was this a fairly normal stop for ships to make in that era? 
>
>Thanks,
>
>Gary Stoltman
>Mercerville, NJ
>
>STOLTMAN(N), RITTER, SHOFSTALL, SPECHT (St. Louis)
>


Re: Hanover emmigrants

Date: 1998/11/07 15:50:42
From: Robert M Scharf <rmscharf(a)ocsnet.net>

Sharon,  Much of my wifes family history is bound up in Cincinnati also.
The main library downtown has a very large genealogy section and many of the
old newspapers on microfilm.  We have run across the Kroeger name in our
research and thought, at one time, that it was part of her line.  But it
appears not, at this time.  Please contact me at rmscharf(a)ocsnet.net  .  We
are going to Cincinnati and perhaps could look up a reference for you.


At 12:18 AM 11/7/98 EST, you wrote:
>Since I'm new at this, I've been reading and observing everyone's
>correspondence for some time now. 
>
>Someone referenced German  publications of Cincinnati - can anyone explain
>what these were?  I have a copy of an obituary printed in German for my great-
>great grandfather Gerard Herman Kroeger (born November 20, 1815/Province
>Hannover). 
>
>I've been curious about this "German newspaper" as it contains an extensive
>article/obit that gave me valuable information regarding my geneology, but
>left many questions unanswered.  Since my clan appears to have settled in
>Cincinnati after coming from Germany in 1846, I'm assuming this obit is from
>there. There is no date or publication name on the article, though it does
>reference that he was the uncle of the editor of the newspaper.  
>
>Are these old newspapers available anywhere that I could research further?
>Any helpful hints from anyone would be greatly appreciated.
>
>~Sharon Kroeger Howes
>Shar1313(a)aol.com
>


Re: Hanover emmigrants

Date: 1998/11/07 15:58:38
From: Robert F. Niehaus <rniehaus(a)mindspring.com>

At 12:18 AM 11/7/98 EST, SHAR1313(a)aol.com wrote:
>Since I'm new at this, I've been reading and observing everyone's
>correspondence for some time now. 
>
>Someone referenced German  publications of Cincinnati - can anyone explain
>what these were?  I have a copy of an obituary printed in German for my
great-
>great grandfather Gerard Herman Kroeger (born November 20, 1815/Province
>Hannover). 
>
>I've been curious about this "German newspaper" as it contains an extensive
>article/obit that gave me valuable information regarding my geneology, but
>left many questions unanswered.  Since my clan appears to have settled in
>Cincinnati after coming from Germany in 1846, I'm assuming this obit is from
>there. There is no date or publication name on the article, though it does
>reference that he was the uncle of the editor of the newspaper.  
>
>Are these old newspapers available anywhere that I could research further?
>Any helpful hints from anyone would be greatly appreciated.
>
>~Sharon Kroeger Howes
>Shar1313(a)aol.com
> Sharon,
The Cincinnati and Hamilton Public Library main branch has in its
Periodicals and Newspapers Dept. microfilm rolls of now defunct German land
English language newspapers.  The most valuable fro me in searching for
home towns of my German ancestors who died in Cinti. is the Cinti.
Volksfreund.  

The Library will copy and mail you a copy of any death notice listed for
all of $0.50, I understand.  We live in Virginia, but were born in in
Cinti.  we are in the City about every 6 to 12 months, and our families
there see me more often at the Library.  

Jeff Herbert has researched and published through the Cinti. Genealogical
Society a fine index of deaths in Cinti. for German people in Cinti. from
1850 to 1908 listed in the Volksfreund.  This is in the History and
Genealogy Dept. of the Library or can be purchased from the Society. There
is also an Index of Marriages by Mr. Herbert there. Contact me directly if
you need more help on this.

Someone wrote in recently complaining about the Gothic script and German
language in the Notices.  I have bought a Websters German dictionary,
puzzled through the gothic script, found codes for gothic, asked help from
German speaking friends in finding the towns and ancestor names.  This
puzzle solving is the essence and fun in genealogical research.  The info
is there if we are willing to dig for it!

One last blast: Cincinnati is spelled CINCINNATI, not the many other ways
that show up in email!       

Good hunting to you all,   Bob Niehaus
                             

Re: Hanover emmigrants

Date: 1998/11/07 16:12:12
From: Jim Amaral <jamaral(a)columbus.rr.com>

In Columbus, there is a book that lists all the German language newspapers in
Ohio. They have the book and many of the original papers at the Ohio Historical
Society (has a web page, can do death surches for some years about 1908-36
maybe?) The Cinci library has one of the largest gene. collections for local
area. Allen County (Ft. Wayne, IN) publishes PERSI, the PERiodical Source Index,
of all the gene. periodicals in the country. Obits are sometime reprinted.
Another hint: Ernie Thode wrote a book on German Genealogy Terms, handy because
most modern German translator programs don't know the lingo.
JimA

SHAR1313(a)aol.com wrote:

> Since I'm new at this, I've been reading and observing everyone's
> correspondence for some time now.
>
> Someone referenced German  publications of Cincinnati - can anyone explain
> what these were?  I have a copy of an obituary printed in German for my great-
> great grandfather Gerard Herman Kroeger (born November 20, 1815/Province
> Hannover).
>
> I've been curious about this "German newspaper" as it contains an extensive
> article/obit that gave me valuable information regarding my geneology, but
> left many questions unanswered.  Since my clan appears to have settled in
> Cincinnati after coming from Germany in 1846, I'm assuming this obit is from
> there. There is no date or publication name on the article, though it does
> reference that he was the uncle of the editor of the newspaper.
>
> Are these old newspapers available anywhere that I could research further?
> Any helpful hints from anyone would be greatly appreciated.
>
> ~Sharon Kroeger Howes
> Shar1313(a)aol.com


Re: Westerdon, England

Date: 1998/11/07 22:24:05
From: Stopan <Stopan(a)aol.com>

<<Gary,  Was that ship by chance the Shawmut Cachelot?  My wifes ggrandfather
left Havre in 1854 after leaving Lorch, Wurttemburg.  I have not, as yet,
found the port that he entered the US.  He went to Cincinnati and became the
chief cooper at Proctor and Gamble.>>

Dear Robert,

Sorry I didn't include the ship name. It was the 'Camillus.' 

Gary Stoltman
Mercerville, NJ

STOLTMAN(N), RITTER, SHOFSTALL, SPECHT (St. Louis)

Re: Westerdon, England

Date: 1998/11/07 22:48:00
From: Robert M Scharf <rmscharf(a)ocsnet.net>

Gary, Thanks for the quick reply.  It doesn't hurt to ask!  Bob S.


At 04:23 PM 11/7/98 EST, you wrote:
><<Gary,  Was that ship by chance the Shawmut Cachelot?  My wifes ggrandfather
>left Havre in 1854 after leaving Lorch, Wurttemburg.  I have not, as yet,
>found the port that he entered the US.  He went to Cincinnati and became the
>chief cooper at Proctor and Gamble.>>
>
>Dear Robert,
>
>Sorry I didn't include the ship name. It was the 'Camillus.' 
>
>Gary Stoltman
>Mercerville, NJ
>
>STOLTMAN(N), RITTER, SHOFSTALL, SPECHT (St. Louis)
>


Bremen

Date: 1998/11/08 07:21:44
From: Chuck McBroom <chuck(a)pcis.net>

Hello!

My ancestors (surname - Thielbar) go back to the Bremen area of Germany, and
I'm trying to learn about the area.

Could somebody please tell me about the Bremen area and any other towns
(including the names) in the vicinity?

Thanks,

Chuck
chuck(a)pcis.net)


Re: Bremen

Date: 1998/11/08 13:00:44
From: Herbert Juling <juling(a)lesum.de>

At 23:59 07.11.98 -0600, chuck(a)pcis.net wrote:
>Hello!
>
>My ancestors (surname - Thielbar) go back to the Bremen area of Germany, and
>I'm trying to learn about the area.
>
>Could somebody please tell me about the Bremen area and any other towns
>(including the names) in the vicinity?

Hi Chuck,

Here are some links to interesting webpages of Bremen (unfortunatly mostly
written in German):

http://www.genealogy.com/gene/vereine/maus
Die Maus - Gesellschaft für Familienforschung e.V. Bremen (Society of
genealogy Bremen) 

http://www.bremen.de/info/skp/StArchiv/StArchiv.htm
Staatsarchiv Bremen  (Archive of the state Bremen)

http://www.bremen.de
Der offizielle Internet Server des Landes und der Stadt Bremen (The
official server  of Bremen) 

http://www.uni-bremen.de
Universität Bremen (University Bremen) 

http://www.hs-bremen.de/
Fachhochschule für Technik (Advanced technical college)

http://www.bremen.de/info/uebersee/
Überseemuseum (Naturkunde-Museum) (museum of natural science)

http://www.bremen.de/info/focke/home.html
Focke Museum (Bremer Landeskunde) (museum of Bremen history)

http://members.aol.com/highsky767/index.html
Worl Genweb Project: Bremen  

http://www.europa-bremen.de/bremen/bremen.htm
Mehr über Bremen - Europa-Server (more about Bremen from european point of
view)

http://burgdamm.de - Burgdamm
ein Bremer Stadtteil (part of town Bremen)

http://www.lesum.de
Lesum - ein Bremer Stadtteil (part of town Bremen)

http://www.is-bremen.de/IS-Bremen/IS.html
Internationale Stadt Bremen (inofficial Bremen server) 

http://www.bremen-multimedial.de/
Bremen Multimedial e.V.

Hope this is enough for the moment...

Herbert  

     _____________________________________________
    /  ~    Herbert Juling  (Bremen, Germany)     \
   / /   \   juling(a)lesum.de                       \
  / [-O O-]   http://lesum.de/juling                \
  \ \#\_/#/  phone: +49 421 635632                  /
   \ \###/  FAX: +49 421 635633                    /
    \_____________________________________________/

HANNOVER

Date: 1998/11/08 14:17:38
From: Joseph V. Clawges <jclawges(a)bellsouth.net>

Hello...
	Is there anyone on here who actually lives in the Hannover area and
could possibly answer a local question?
	Joe Clalwges

Re: Bremen

Date: 1998/11/08 15:51:37
From: Robert M Scharf <rmscharf(a)ocsnet.net>

Chuck,  This is a HUGE request!  Have you tried the libraries and
encyclopedias yet?  Also, a German atlas would show you the many towns in
the area.  The one I use is the EURO ATLAS of Germany, scale of 1:300,000.
It is from the American Map Corporation of Maspeth, NY and should be
available in the larger bookstores.   


At 11:59 PM 11/7/98 -0600, you wrote:
>Hello!
>
>My ancestors (surname - Thielbar) go back to the Bremen area of Germany, and
>I'm trying to learn about the area.
>
>Could somebody please tell me about the Bremen area and any other towns
>(including the names) in the vicinity?
>
>Thanks,
>
>Chuck
>chuck(a)pcis.net)
>
>


Re: HANNOVER

Date: 1998/11/08 18:19:14
From: Charles F. Dirst <cfdirst(a)mtco.com>

Joe Clalwges
Re: your question about the Hannover area:
I have a friend who lives in Seelze, a few km from Hannover. He may be able
to answer your question. He is not on this list, but his email address is
<Josef.Gietzen(a)t-online.de>. His friends call him Sepp.
Chuck Dirst

Re: Hanover emmigrants

Date: 1998/11/08 18:31:22
From: BettyKirk <BettyKirk(a)aol.com>

Bob:  Your information on German records in Cincinnati was interesting. I
agree that the puzzle solving aspect of genealogical research is a lot of the
fun. By the way, I notice you wrote the abbreviation Cinti. a couple of times.
I found this in some old family records. Is it a common local abbreviation?

What would be the best way to contact the Cincinnati and Hamilton Public
Library about finding obituaries? Do you have an e-mail or snail mail address?

Also, you state the the index of deaths by Jeff Herbert is available through
the Cincinnati Gen Society. Do you know the price (approx) of the index? Do
you have an address for the Society? 

Thanks.

Betty


Re: Bremen

Date: 1998/11/08 18:40:36
From: Werner Honkomp <Werner.Honkomp(a)t-online.de>

Chuck McBroom schrieb:
> Hello!
>
> My ancestors (surname - Thielbar) go back to the Bremen area of Germany, and
> I'm trying to learn about the area.
>
> Could somebody please tell me about the Bremen area and any other towns
> (including the names) in the vicinity?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Chuck
> chuck(a)pcis.net)
---------------------------------->
Hi Chuck,
an other city near of Bremen is Oldenburg, there I do live.
Check out:
http://www.oldenburg.de/      City-Info
http://www.uni-oldenburg.de/  University, 
        click also NAUSA for emigration research
http://www.nwz-online.de/     news-paper


Werner
---------------------------------------------------------
Werner Honkomp         eMail: werner.honkomp(a)t-online.de
Ziegelhofstr. 35B    Homepage: http://home.t-online.de/home/werner.honkomp/
26121 Oldenburg      Genealogie: http://home.t-online.de/home/ww.honkomp/
GERMANY


Re: HANNOVER

Date: 1998/11/08 18:46:16
From: Werner Honkomp <Werner.Honkomp(a)t-online.de>

Joseph V. Clawges schrieb:
> Hello...
> 	Is there anyone on here who actually lives in the Hannover area and
> could possibly answer a local question?
> 	Joe Clalwges
--------------------------------------
Hello Joseph,
sometimes I visit Hannover City, maybe I can help you !?

Werner
--------------------------------------------------------
Werner Honkomp         eMail: werner.honkomp(a)t-online.de
Ziegelhofstr. 35B    Homepage: http://home.t-online.de/home/werner.honkomp/
26121 Oldenburg      Genealogie: http://home.t-online.de/home/ww.honkomp/
GERMANY


Puvogel, Duncan, Kemna and Bischoff

Date: 1998/11/08 19:20:23
From: Maryanne Andruzzi <lujack3(a)worldnet.att.net>

I am new to this list and I hope someone might give me a clue what I
should do next.  The information I have is:
My grandfather John Henry Puvogel was born in the US in 1892.  His
birth certificate lists that his parents, John Puvogel and Bertha
Kemna (not sure of spelling) were born in Hanover, Germany.
I have g grandfather John's death certificate.  It indicates that  he
was born November 29, 1859.  His father's name was John and his
mother's name was Marie Duncan, both born in Germany.
I have Bertha's death certificate.  It indicates that she was born
October 28, 1866.   Her father's name was John "Kanma" which could be
an incorrect spelling, and her mother was Marie Bischoff, both born in
Germany.
Both John and Bertha are buried in New York.
I have not as yet found John and Bertha on any census but I am still
checking to see if any further information is provided as to their
origins.
I did some searching on ships passenger lists but didn't find anything
yet.  I have been looking for the name Puvogel because I am not sure
of the spelling of Bertha's maiden name.  I do not know if they came
to the US together, already married, or if they married here in the
US.  I do know they had three other children by the time my
grandfather was born in 1892.
Where would a likely port of departure be for persons leaving Hanover
around 1890?
Can anyone shed any light on the correct spelling of Bertha's maiden
name?
Would anyone be researching any of these names?
Any suggestions would be helpful?
Thank you.
Maryanne, New York




Re: Hanover emmigrants

Date: 1998/11/08 22:38:12
From: Robert F. Niehaus <rniehaus(a)mindspring.com>

Betty,

Cinti. is a frequently used abbreviation for Cincinnati in mail service.  
another, informal and breezy one is <Cincy> in local writing.

The Hamilton County Chapter of the Ohio Genealogical Society has a mail
address: P.O. Box 15851, Cincinnati OH 45218-0851.  There is a home page
internet address:  http://members.aol.com/ogshc  There is voice mail at
513-956-7078.  

The Chapter publishes Quarterly news and inquiry letters <The Gazette> and
<the Tracer> and membership is $12 per year.  they have been offering
Herbert's  Index book at about $20.  Jeff has completed another book <Index
of Death Notices from the Cincinnati Volksblatt 1846-1918>.  This is now
available, also, I believe, for another local German Language newspaper for
those years, with microfilm copies at the Public Library.  These  index
books are also available from Heritage Books at www.heritagebooks.com

The Public Library of Ciinmcinnati and Hamilton County, 800 Vine St. Cinti.
45202-1071, phone <History and Genealogy Dept.>, 513-369-6905, with main
number 513-369-3200.
The Library web site is <http://plch.lib.oh.us> Via telnet, if you have
this program, at plch.lib.oh.us  The obituaries are in the Periodicals Dept
<Newspapers and Magazines>

Another good local genealogical source, quite active, is the email  group:
<OHHAMILT-L-request(a)rootsweb.com> and include only one word message
<subscribe> You may find a group member who will look up info for you in
Cincy.

good luck,           Bob Niehaus    

Re: Emigrants from Ost HEIDMARK

Date: 1998/11/08 22:50:17
From: Marvin Woltje <marv(a)mindsync.com>

Hi Linda,

I am curious if there would be any WOLTJES on your list.  I would be 
very surprised if so but then always looking.  (;-)  Thanks in 
advance.  




GROBY, Heinrich, 1802-1867, Prussia - Missouri, USA

Date: 1998/11/09 01:08:36
From: Jackie E. Erikson <jerikson(a)gte.net>

I am new to these groups.  I am looking for leads on one of my ancestors,
Heinrich GROBY.  His Americanized named, GROBY, has been seen in other
versions, GROB and GROBE.  I do not know what the German spelling of his
name was.  The following information is known:

Heinrich GROBY, born about 1802 in Germany.  His wife, Wilhelmina, was born
about 1807.  US Federal Census Records for the years 1850-1900 show their
places of birth as Germany, Prussia, or Hanover.  They came to America in
about May 1838.  By 1850 they were in St. Louis, Missouri.  Census records
show the family consisted of:

Heinrich GROBY, born about 1802, Germany, Prussia, or Hannover
Wilhelmina GROBY, born about 1807, Germany, Prussia, or Hannover
Frederica GROBY, born about 1829, Germany, Prussia, or Hannover
Frederick GROBY, born about 1834, Germany, Prussia, or Hannover
Charles Henry GROBY, born May 1838, Germany, Missouri, or "AT SEA"
John William GROBY, born about 1841, Missouri

Frederica is shown in the 1860 Federal Census as being born in location
deciphered as: "Sabjdetfurth Hor. G."  I have assumed that this is probably
somewhere in "Hannover, Germany".  I can scan the census document and
provide anyone with a view at the original entry if it would help.

If there is someone out there who can help with this family, I would
appreciate any help I can get.

Thanks

Jackie E. Erikson
Baytown, TX  USA 77520
E-Mail: jerikson(a)gte.net



MICHAELSEN/SON

Date: 1998/11/09 05:04:26
From: Judy and Tom Martin <martin(a)warwick.net>

Looking for Christian (b. 1/24/1829) and Maria (b.1834 )
MICHAELSON/SEN.  He was born in Germany and she in Denmark. They
immigrated in 1881 with son Peter (b. Sept.1862 in Denmark). Evidence
points to their immigration from Denmark to America. They settled in
Platte County, Nebraska.  I could not make a match from the
Danish Immigration Archives.

Judy Martin

BEHRENS/KUENNEMANN

Date: 1998/11/09 17:45:09
From: Judy and Tom Martin <martin(a)warwick.net>

Hello Friends:

        I am researching John C. BEHRENS(dob 10/1/1837, dod 12/10/1898)
who married Mary (Marie) C. KUENNEMANN (dob June 1, 1851, dod
4/21/1895)  in
Shell Creek Township, Platte County, Nebraska  May 11, 1875. She was
born in Oldenburg. Her parents were John H. KUENNEMANN and Catharine
EILERS.
        John's place of birth is listed as Insul Ruehjen (Ruegen?). Can
anyone
tell me where Insul Ruegen is? John's parents were John BEHRENS and
Johanna S. SANDHAGEN.

        Others have done wonderful research dating back to the 1700's on
my
Becher-Mohlmann ancestors from Hollen, Ostfriesland who settled first in
Illinois and finally in Platte County. I hope to do the same with my
other lines.

Judy Martin

Re: Re: Hanover emmigrants

Date: 1998/11/09 17:54:31
From: BettyKirk <BettyKirk(a)aol.com>

Bob:

Thanks so much for all the information. It gives me a lot to work on!  Betty

Bremen - part of Hannover?

Date: 1998/11/09 20:17:22
From: IRGRAFFMAN <IRGRAFFMAN(a)delphi.com>

Hello, just discovered an ancestor possibly being from Bremen.  Looking
at a map it was not clear if Bremen was part of Hannover.  

If it was then the person for whom I am searching is Arnold BLOMER
who resided in Philadelphia from aprox 1840 till his death in 1860.

Thank you!

Re: Puvogel, Duncan, Kemna and Bischoff

Date: 1998/11/09 21:05:42
From: Werner Honkomp <Werner.Honkomp(a)t-online.de>

Maryanne Andruzzi schrieb:
> I am new to this list and I hope someone might give me a clue what I
> should do next.  The information I have is:
> My grandfather John Henry Puvogel was born in the US in 1892.  His
> birth certificate lists that his parents, John Puvogel and Bertha
> Kemna (not sure of spelling) were born in Hanover, Germany.
> I have g grandfather John's death certificate.  It indicates that  he
> was born November 29, 1859.  His father's name was John and his
> mother's name was Marie Duncan, both born in Germany.
> I have Bertha's death certificate.  It indicates that she was born
> October 28, 1866.   Her father's name was John "Kanma" which could be
> an incorrect spelling, and her mother was Marie Bischoff, both born in
> Germany.
> Both John and Bertha are buried in New York.
> I have not as yet found John and Bertha on any census but I am still
> checking to see if any further information is provided as to their
> origins.
> I did some searching on ships passenger lists but didn't find anything
> yet.  I have been looking for the name Puvogel because I am not sure
> of the spelling of Bertha's maiden name.  I do not know if they came
> to the US together, already married, or if they married here in the
> US.  I do know they had three other children by the time my
> grandfather was born in 1892.
> Where would a likely port of departure be for persons leaving Hanover
> around 1890?
> Can anyone shed any light on the correct spelling of Bertha's maiden
> name?
> Would anyone be researching any of these names?
> Any suggestions would be helpful?
> Thank you.
> Maryanne, New York
---------------------------------->
Hello Maryanne,

I checked the German phone directory:
- 119 Puvogel, most near Bremen: Oyten, Achim, Ottersberg, Schwanewede
- 409 Kemna (not any Kanma), I can not see any concentration on a place
-  81 Duncan, not any concentration
- 9832 Bischoff, not any concentration

Werner
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Werner Honkomp         eMail: werner.honkomp(a)t-online.de
Ziegelhofstr. 35B    Homepage: http://home.t-online.de/home/werner.honkomp/
26121 Oldenburg      Genealogie: http://home.t-online.de/home/ww.honkomp/
GERMANY


Re: GROBY, Heinrich, 1802-1867, Prussia - Missouri, USA

Date: 1998/11/09 23:10:40
From: Werner Honkomp <Werner.Honkomp(a)t-online.de>

Jackie E. Erikson schrieb:
> I am new to these groups.  I am looking for leads on one of my ancestors,
> Heinrich GROBY.  His Americanized named, GROBY, has been seen in other
> versions, GROB and GROBE.  I do not know what the German spelling of his
> name was.  The following information is known:
>
> Heinrich GROBY, born about 1802 in Germany.  His wife, Wilhelmina, was born
> about 1807.  US Federal Census Records for the years 1850-1900 show their
> places of birth as Germany, Prussia, or Hanover.  They came to America in
> about May 1838.  By 1850 they were in St. Louis, Missouri.  Census records
> show the family consisted of:
>
> Heinrich GROBY, born about 1802, Germany, Prussia, or Hannover
> Wilhelmina GROBY, born about 1807, Germany, Prussia, or Hannover
> Frederica GROBY, born about 1829, Germany, Prussia, or Hannover
> Frederick GROBY, born about 1834, Germany, Prussia, or Hannover
> Charles Henry GROBY, born May 1838, Germany, Missouri, or "AT SEA"
> John William GROBY, born about 1841, Missouri
>
> Frederica is shown in the 1860 Federal Census as being born in location
> deciphered as: "Sabjdetfurth Hor. G."  I have assumed that this is probably
> somewhere in "Hannover, Germany".  I can scan the census document and
> provide anyone with a view at the original entry if it would help.
>
> If there is someone out there who can help with this family, I would
> appreciate any help I can get.
>
> Thanks
>
> Jackie E. Erikson
> Baytown, TX  USA 77520
> E-Mail: jerikson(a)gte.net
------------------------------------------->
The German phone directory shows:
-  25 Groby
- 800 Grob
- 2213 Grobe
I can not see any concentration.

Maybe your "Sabjdetfuhrt" is "Bad Salzdetfuhrt" county Hildesheim, 25 km 
southerly of Hildesheim.
There I could find follows addresses:

Grobe, Helmut (05060) 1557
  Brunnenstr. 6
  31162 Bad Salzdetfurth

Grobe, Lars (05063) 748
  Elsa-Brandström-Str. 13
  31162 Bad Salzdetfurth

Grobe, Torsten (05060) 6534
  Breinum  Brunnenstr. 6
  31162 Bad Salzdetfurth

Good luck,
Werner
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Werner Honkomp         eMail: werner.honkomp(a)t-online.de
Ziegelhofstr. 35B    Homepage: http://home.t-online.de/home/werner.honkomp/
26121 Oldenburg      Genealogie: http://home.t-online.de/home/ww.honkomp/
GERMANY


Re: Bremen - part of Hannover?

Date: 1998/11/09 23:43:14
From: Werner Honkomp <Werner.Honkomp(a)t-online.de>

IRGRAFFMAN(a)delphi.com schrieb:
> Hello, just discovered an ancestor possibly being from Bremen.  Looking
> at a map it was not clear if Bremen was part of Hannover.  
>
> If it was then the person for whom I am searching is Arnold BLOMER
> who resided in Philadelphia from aprox 1840 till his death in 1860.
>
> Thank you!
--------------------------------->
Bremen is not a part of Hannover, it is a own city state.

Werner
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Werner Honkomp         eMail: werner.honkomp(a)t-online.de
Ziegelhofstr. 35B    Homepage: http://home.t-online.de/home/werner.honkomp/
26121 Oldenburg      Genealogie: http://home.t-online.de/home/ww.honkomp/
GERMANY


Gerke, Gehrke of Hannover Germany

Date: 1998/11/09 23:48:18
From: GenFritz <GenFritz(a)aol.com>

Looking for Birth Death or marriage or other children info on Henry and
Adelbert (Fink) Gehrke of Hannover Germany.
Descendants of Henry Gehrke


Generation No. 1

1.  HENRY1 GEHRKE was born Unknown in Germany, and died Unknown.  He married
ADELBERT FINK Unknown.
	
Child of HENRY GEHRKE and ADELBERT FINK is:
2.	i.	AUGUST2 GERKE, b. May 18, 1857, Germany; d. April 30, 1924, Greenfield,
Milwaukee, WI, USA.


Generation No. 2

2.  AUGUST2 GERKE (HENRY1 GEHRKE) was born May 18, 1857 in Hannover Germany,
and died April 30, 1924 in Greenfield, Milwaukee, WI, USA.  He married SOPHIA
STELLOH Unknown.

More About AUGUST GERKE:
Buried: May 03, 1924, Good HOPE CEM, MILWAUKEE, WI, USA

More About SOPHIA STELLOH:
Buried: January 16, 1929, Good Hope Cem., Milwaukee, WI, USA
	
Children of AUGUST GERKE and SOPHIA STELLOH are:
	i.	CONRAD3 GERKE, b. 1876, Hanover, Germany; d. Unknown; m. DORA SCHROEDES,
Unknown.
	ii.	FREDRICK ALBERT JOHN GERKE, b. August 09, 1883, Milwaukee, Milwaukee,
Wisconsin, USA; d. September 11, 1948, Plattsburg, Clinton, New York, USA1; m.
EDITH GRACE LAVIGNE, Unknown.

More About FREDRICK ALBERT JOHN GERKE:
Buried: Mt. Carmel, Cem., Plattsburg, Clinton, N.Y.1
Christened: Wisconsin

Notes for EDITH GRACE LAVIGNE:
Her Death Certificate says she was Born 08-22-1893 in Morrisonville, Clinton,
N.Y. Some in Family Disagree with this date + place.

More About EDITH GRACE LAVIGNE:
Buried: April 20, 1967, Mt. Carmel, Cem., Plattsburg, Clinton, N.Y.4
Christened: August 13, 1892, St Augustine Chu, Peru, New York, USA

	iii.	ADELINE GERKE, b. Unknown; d. Unknown.
	iv.	HILDA GERKE, b. Unknown; d. Unknown.
	v.	ANN GERKE, b. Unknown; d. Unknown.
	vi.	SOPHIA GERKE, b. Unknown; d. Unknown.
	vii.	WILLIAM F GERKE, b. Unknown; d. Unknown.
	viii.	MARGARET GERKE, b. Unknown; d. Unknown.



Re: BEHRENS/KUENNEMANN

Date: 1998/11/09 23:56:57
From: Werner Honkomp <Werner.Honkomp(a)t-online.de>

Judy and Tom Martin schrieb:
> Hello Friends:
>
>         I am researching John C. BEHRENS(dob 10/1/1837, dod 12/10/1898)
> who married Mary (Marie) C. KUENNEMANN (dob June 1, 1851, dod
> 4/21/1895)  in
> Shell Creek Township, Platte County, Nebraska  May 11, 1875. She was
> born in Oldenburg. Her parents were John H. KUENNEMANN and Catharine
> EILERS.
>         John's place of birth is listed as Insul Ruehjen (Ruegen?). Can
> anyone
> tell me where Insul Ruegen is? John's parents were John BEHRENS and
> Johanna S. SANDHAGEN.
>
>         Others have done wonderful research dating back to the 1700's on
> my
> Becher-Mohlmann ancestors from Hollen, Ostfriesland who settled first in
> Illinois and finally in Platte County. I hope to do the same with my
> other lines.
>
> Judy Martin
-------------------------->
Hello Judy,
I think your "Insul Ruehjen" could be "Insel Rügen" (or Island Ruegen). It is 
located north-east of Germany county Mecklenburg-Vorpommern.

Werner
---------------------------------------------------------------
Werner Honkomp         eMail: werner.honkomp(a)t-online.de
Ziegelhofstr. 35B    Homepage: http://home.t-online.de/home/werner.honkomp/
26121 Oldenburg      Genealogie: http://home.t-online.de/home/ww.honkomp/
GERMANY


Re: Hanover emmigrants

Date: 1998/11/10 03:20:20
From: Caeser1932 <Caeser1932(a)aol.com>

Sharon,
      If you are going to Cincinnati to ckeck on the name Kroeger, be sure to
check in the Kenton County Library on Scott St in Covington, Ky. St Joseph
Church records on microfilm there. If I recall, I remember seeing Kroegers in
the records. Records begin circa 1856. Lots of catholics from Hannover and
Oldenburg in that parish wihch is no longer in existence.
                                Jerry Twohig

Re: Hanover emmigrants

Date: 1998/11/10 03:29:24
From: Caeser1932 <Caeser1932(a)aol.com>

Sharon,
      If you contact the Cincinnati Public library via telnet or via direct
dial up networking 1 513 369 3200, and access their Newsdex, you can type in a
name and get the newspaper, page and column of the reference. Then you might
be able to ask then to look it up on microfilm, copy  the page and send it to
you.
Jerry

Re: Bremen - part of Hannover?

Date: 1998/11/10 14:19:36
From: IRGRAFFMAN <IRGRAFFMAN(a)delphi.com>

Thank you Werner, for the information.

Ira

German

Date: 1998/11/10 21:57:33
From: Rowena White <herbrow(a)pld.com>

To J Kelsey Jones,

There is a Hannover list: hannover-l(a)genealogy.net that is interesting.

Rowena

Re: Puvogel, Duncan, Kemna and Bischoff

Date: 1998/11/11 01:31:15
From: Jens Mueller-Koppe <hrs(a)pop3.vossnet.de>

Dear Maryanne Andruzzi,

I am living im Bremen and I think that I am able to add some 
informations to what Werner already wrote about the appearance of the 
surnames you mentioned.

I know that the surname Kaemena, which points without doubt to some 
parishes just east from Bremen (Osterholz, Arbergen) was often 
written like Kemna and Kaemna until the 19th century. May be this 
idea and the distribution of the Puvogel surname can lead to the
conclusion that you family was from the rural areas of the city state
of Bremen or from the Hannoverian parishes just east from Bremen,
like Arbergen (belonging to Bremen since 1939).
In the parish were I live (Arbergen) there are (and were) a lot Puvogel,
Kaemna and Bischoff families.
After I am just about to put the Arbergen parish registers in a 
database I can check the two birthdates in Arbergen for free as soon 
as I get the opportunity.

If it comes to more thorough lookups I would have to charge you,
because I am a professional genealogist and historian and earn my
living on this kind of research.


Best greetings,

Jens Mueller-Koppe
HISTORICAL RESEARCH SERVICES, Germany (Bremen)

For fee informations
and for a collection of "Informations about Northern Germany
Genealogy" (including a growing list of presaved and 
accessable Hannoverian parish registers) please take a look at:
http://pages.vossnet.de/hrs  
 

records in B"uckeburg

Date: 1998/11/11 05:52:21
From: Caiside <Caiside(a)aol.com>

Hello all,
Can anyone tell me what church records are available for B"uckeburg? I am
interested in marriage records for 1813, probably Lutheran. 
My ancestor Johann Heinrich BLASS and Elizabeth KLEIN, were married there in
Feb 1813.

Thanks for any help.
Janet Cassidy-Stroh

Re: MICHAELSEN/SON

Date: 1998/11/11 13:43:17
From: Arnold Lang <arnielang(a)worldnet.att.net>

Judy and Tom Martin wrote:
> 
> Looking for Christian (b. 1/24/1829) and Maria (b.1834 )
> MICHAELSON/SEN.  He was born in Germany and she in Denmark. They
> immigrated in 1881 with son Peter (b. Sept.1862 in Denmark). Evidence
> points to their immigration from Denmark to America. They settled in
> Platte County, Nebraska.  I could not make a match from the
> Danish Immigration Archives.
> 
> Judy Martin

I assume that you looked at the Copenhagen, Denmark lists 1868-1911 which
are arranged alphabetical by year.  These are available at the LDS Family
History Centers, (look under Denmark - Emigration in their catalog).

You can also search the passenger lists which may have some more
information than you presently have, e.g. ship name, date and ports and
arrival, occupation, possibly place of birth, and names of fellow
travelers.

If you have no other information as to which port they arrived at, and
since they ended up in Nebraska, you may start with the ports of New
Orleans or New York.  For New Orleans, check the Index to Passenger lists,
NARA microfilm publication T527 (LDS microfilm number 0543403). 
Unfortunately, 1881 was one of the years that were not indexed.  You can
first try looking at "Germans to America" by Filby, and if you are certain
that they did arrive in 1881, you can search all passenger lists for ships
arriving in that year (this is a tedious job, but you may find them)

My Research Guide to Immigration and Ships Passenger Lists at:
http://home.att.net/~arnielang
provides step by step instructions on finding and using the lists.

-- 
Arnold Lang
arnielang(a)worldnet.att.net

Re: records in B"uckeburg

Date: 1998/11/12 07:19:45
From: Carolyn Bening <cbening(a)sockets.net>

Janet,
Do you have access to a LDS Church  Family Center?  You can check their
locality fiche or computer cd for Buckeburg to see what parish or civil
records are available.  I have had excellent results with church records
from Germany on LDS film for all my family trees.  If you give me your
location, I can check with local LDS church for one closest to you.   
Carolyn in Missouri

----------
> From: Caiside(a)aol.com
> To: hannover-l(a)genealogy.net
> Subject: records in B"uckeburg
> Date: Tuesday, November 10, 1998 8:51 PM
> 
> Hello all,
> Can anyone tell me what church records are available for B"uckeburg? I am
> interested in marriage records for 1813, probably Lutheran. 
> My ancestor Johann Heinrich BLASS and Elizabeth KLEIN, were married there
in
> Feb 1813.
> 
> Thanks for any help.
> Janet Cassidy-Stroh

Re: Re: records in B"uckeburg

Date: 1998/11/12 15:58:22
From: Caiside <Caiside(a)aol.com>

In a message dated 11/12/98 2:22:00 AM, you wrote:

<<f you give me your

location, I can check with local LDS church for one closest to you.   >>

Carolyn, 
Thanks, but I know where mine is, I go there regularly.  I will look in the
catalog when I get a chance, but I  had just finally deciphered a town name on
a xerox of microfilm (that I got in the FHC) and was so excited I wanted an
instant answer! Thought maybe someone would just know offhand because maybe
someone was from there or working on same place.
Janet

Brandes

Date: 1998/11/12 18:22:30
From: MARVIN Brandes <marf.brandes(a)wxs.nl>

Hello everyone ,

I'm looking foir the Brandes family .
Henricus Christoffel Brandes,born 1790 in Burgdorf.
The city birth registers of that year were destroyed in a fire, can
someone help me out.

Thanks,
                M.Brandes


Microfilm

Date: 1998/11/13 17:51:49
From: MARVIN Brandes <marf.brandes(a)wxs.nl>

Hi you all,

I'm looking for the data of the following microfilm from the
Ahnenstammkartei das Deutschen volkes;   Microfilm nr.   17.98.503

It contains the following names;    Bracklau
                                                         Branger
                                                         Brandt
                                                         Brandes
                                                         Brandis
Thanks to you all
                             Marvin Brandes




HANKIN, Montagu CA,NJ

Date: 1998/11/14 12:00:55
From: Frank Wenzel <fwenz(a)hom.net>

First of all I'm assuming that the List is also interested in HANKIN as
well as HANKINS.  If not please let me know.  

I'm seeking anyone with a connection to Montagu HANKIN b: 28 Mar 1892 San
Raefel, CA; d: May 1974, Summit, Union, NJ.  He married _?_ SCHMIDT
(probably in NJ).  

If anyone has a connection or information on this couple I would be happy
to exchange information.




Frank Wenzel
fwenz(a)hom.net
Researching: Aders, Bendernagel, Bilstein, Crittenden, Eichele, Helck,
Horldin, Moore, Pape, Ranft, Smylie, Tucker, Van Ameringe & Wenzel


Holland list

Date: 1998/11/15 00:07:40
From: TheJenks8 <TheJenks8(a)aol.com>

I have been searching for a Holland bulletin board for some time.  I have
ancestor, William Meyers, who emigrated from Holland shortly after 1850 with
his parents.
So. would appreciate any info. on a bulletin board, or web site, for Holland.
Thanks
Ruth Jenkins 

Re: Holland list

Date: 1998/11/15 04:44:03
From: Arnold Lang <arnielang(a)worldnet.att.net>

TheJenks8(a)aol.com wrote:
> 
> I have been searching for a Holland bulletin board for some time.  I have
> ancestor, William Meyers, who emigrated from Holland shortly after 1850 with
> his parents.
> So. would appreciate any info. on a bulletin board, or web site, for Holland.
> Thanks
> Ruth Jenkins

Check Cyndi's List of Netherland genealogy sites on the web at:
http://www.CyndisList.com/nether.htm

There are links to a hundred different web sites including two mailing
lists.
-- 
Arnold Lang
arnielang(a)worldnet.att.net
Visit the Research Guide to Immigration and Ships Passenger Lists at:
http://home.att.net/~arnielang

In the Year 1216...what is a Knappe?

Date: 1998/11/15 17:35:38
From: MITHRUS1 <MITHRUS1(a)aol.com>

Hi All.

I am in the 13th century with my research and
 need assistance with a translation of German, Prussian decent....

Reference on my church records is to:
Occupation: Knappe 1216, then Knight in the Haus of Waschow 1224-1246.

Can anyone tell me what an educated explanation of a Knappe is?  I have read
German Poetry and plays and it appears to refer to, or has been stated as
"Gentlemen to the King, Prince," etc.

Thank you! Mithrus1(a)aol.com

Re: In the Year 1216...what is a Knappe?

Date: 1998/11/15 19:45:46
From: W. Fred Rump <fred(a)k2nesoft.com>

On 15 Nov 98, at 11:32, MITHRUS1(a)aol.com wrote about In the Year 1216...what is a Knappe?:

> I am in the 13th century with my research and
>  need assistance with a translation of German, Prussian decent....

That's a pretty early time frame to be establishing descent from. 
What people were back then is really open to question as people 
associated more with smaller communities like towns or families 
than ethnic groups like Prussian. Because of intermarriage and co-
mingling that's all open to question anyhow. 
 
> Reference on my church records is to:
> Occupation: Knappe 1216, then Knight in the Haus of Waschow 1224-1246.
 
First of all it is not an occupation. It was a state of life and in this 
case just a preliminary step to becoming a Ritter or knight. 
Occupations as such are also hard to define for this time period as 
most people either raised food or had others raise it for them 
because of their more exalted status. 

fred

Pelican Lake Motorcoach Resort 
4788 Corian Court
Naples, FL 34114-9418
941-775-7838

Re: In the Year 1216...what is a Knappe?

Date: 1998/11/15 20:16:51
From: Bob Borchers <bobb(a)inreach.com>

>From Ernest Thode's German/English Genealogical Dictionary:

Knappe = Shieldbearer; candidate for knight; squire

Bob

----------
> From: MITHRUS1(a)aol.com
> To: TRIER-ROOTS-L(a)rootsweb.co
> Cc: Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net; mecklenburg-l(a)genealogy.net
> Subject: In the Year 1216...what is a Knappe?
> Date: Sunday, November 15, 1998 8:32 AM
> 
> Hi All.
> 
> I am in the 13th century with my research and
>  need assistance with a translation of German, Prussian decent....
> 
> Reference on my church records is to:
> Occupation: Knappe 1216, then Knight in the Haus of Waschow 1224-1246.
> 
> Can anyone tell me what an educated explanation of a Knappe is?  I have
read
> German Poetry and plays and it appears to refer to, or has been stated as
> "Gentlemen to the King, Prince," etc.
> 
> Thank you! Mithrus1(a)aol.com

Re: In the Year 1216...what is a Knappe?

Date: 1998/11/15 22:14:23
From: MITHRUS1 <MITHRUS1(a)aol.com>

Fred, 
Thank you for your response.  Very exciting research, as I have the line from
1997 into 1182.  It was a bit easier due to some royality lines in Germany and
a most exciting venture to say the least having had the family documented in
Mecklenberg archives.
Thanks again..........Mithrus1(a)aol.com

> 
>  First of all it is not an occupation. It was a state of life and in this 
>  case just a preliminary step to becoming a Ritter or knight. 
>  Occupations as such are also hard to define for this time period as 
>  most people either raised food or had others raise it for them 
>  because of their more exalted status. 

Re: In the Year 1216...what is a Knappe?

Date: 1998/11/15 22:15:30
From: MITHRUS1 <MITHRUS1(a)aol.com>

Bob,

Many Thanks!!!
Mithrus1(a)aol.com

> 
>  From Ernest Thode's German/English Genealogical Dictionary:
>  
>  Knappe = Shieldbearer; candidate for knight; squire
>  
>  Bob

Re: Holland list

Date: 1998/11/15 22:16:33
From: TheJenks8 <TheJenks8(a)aol.com>

Thanks Arnold, I have looked again at Cyndi's list, and have found the web
site I think will answer my needs.  Hopefully.  Thanks.  Ed J

Ritter

Date: 1998/11/16 02:51:26
From: Stopan <Stopan(a)aol.com>

<<just a preliminary step to becoming a Ritter or knight.>>

Dear Fred,

What was a RITTER?

Thanks,

Gary Stoltman
Mercerville, NJ

Ritter

Date: 1998/11/16 14:22:11
From: W. Fred Rump <fred(a)k2nesoft.com>

From: "W. Fred Rump" <fred(a)k2nesoft.com>
Organization: at home
To: hannover-l(a)genealogy.net
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 21:54:19 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Subject: Re: Ritter
Reply-to: fred(a)k2nesoft.com
Priority: normal
In-reply-to: <9b56624b.364f8486(a)aol.com>
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01b)

On 15 Nov 98, at 20:48, Stopan(a)aol.com wrote about Ritter:

From:           	Stopan(a)aol.com
Date sent:      	Sun, 15 Nov 1998 20:48:54 EST
To:             	hannover-l(a)genealogy.net
Subject:        	Ritter
Send reply to:  	hannover-l(a)genealogy.net

> <<just a preliminary step to becoming a Ritter or knight.>>
> 
> Dear Fred,
> 
> What was a RITTER?

or knight? Comes from Reiten and rider. 

Fred
Pelican Lake Motorcoach Resort 
4788 Corian Court
Naples, FL 34114-9418
941-775-7838
Pelican Lake Motorcoach Resort 
4788 Corian Court
Naples, FL 34114-9418
941-775-7838

Re: Ritter

Date: 1998/11/16 19:48:12
From: Stopan <Stopan(a)aol.com>

Fred,

Hope it's warm for your old bones! Please do me a favor as I believe your
answer was cut short on "RITTER." Have a good winter.

Gary Stoltman
in chilly Mercerville, NJ 

Kirchenpatron

Date: 1998/11/17 00:58:19
From: FOhlsen550 <FOhlsen550(a)aol.com>

Hope someone can help me with definition.  Following was written c. 1970 by a
native german-speaker who spent first ~25 years of her life in or around
Rekum.  Written concerning a mutual ancestor in 18th or early 19th century
Schwanewede.

"Major Vollrath Josua von Viereck
Kirchenpatron in Schwanewede
Vollrath Josua (Israelitisdur Namer)
Natan Schwanewede (Christlicher Name)"

Apologize for my spelling errors, if any, this is what the handwriting looks
like to me.  What is "Kirchenpatron"?   Patron of church seems too easy.
Perhaps a civic position?  What is "Israelitisdur Namer"?  Could it be
surname?  Dictionaries, online and off not really helpful.

Thank you in advance for any assistance rendered.

FOhlsen550(a)aol.com

Re: Ritter

Date: 1998/11/17 06:03:41
From: W. Fred Rump <fred(a)k2nesoft.com>

On 16 Nov 98, at 13:47, Stopan(a)aol.com wrote about Re: Ritter:

> Hope it's warm for your old bones! Please do me a favor as I believe your
> answer was cut short on "RITTER." Have a good winter.

Well, for once I was very short. :-)

Like I said, I believe that rider and Ritter are part of the same 
germanic root. In the early days only the wealthy noble class could 
afford a horse and these became the Ritter class - ie the knights of 
old. Don't know what else I can add to that to make it any longer. 

So far the winter here is defined by my wife's wishes to have the air 
conditioning on at night and by my wishing to sleep without it. I'd 
rather forgo the covers. :-) It's a tough life.

Fred 

Pelican Lake Motorcoach Resort 
4788 Corian Court
Naples, FL 34114-9418
941-775-7838

Re: Kirchenpatron

Date: 1998/11/17 06:30:55
From: W. Fred Rump <fred(a)k2nesoft.com>

On 16 Nov 98, at 18:57, FOhlsen550(a)aol.com wrote about Kirchenpatron:

> Hope someone can help me with definition.  Following was written c. 1970
> by a native german-speaker who spent first ~25 years of her life in or
> around Rekum.  Written concerning a mutual ancestor in 18th or early 19th
> century Schwanewede.
> 
> "Major Vollrath Josua von Viereck
> Kirchenpatron in Schwanewede
> Vollrath Josua (Israelitisdur Namer)
> Natan Schwanewede (Christlicher Name)"

What you apparently have here is a high-ranking officer who at one 
point was Jewish but tool a Christian name and even sponsored the 
local church with an income stream. He took the name of the 
community or estate of Schwanewede.  

> Apologize for my spelling errors, if any, this is what the handwriting
> looks like to me.  What is "Kirchenpatron"?   Patron of church seems too
> easy. Perhaps a civic position?

Think of it as a sponsor who funded the church. This was the way 
they normally received income. Perhaps he gave the church a 
piece of land which it then used for its own puirposes. Patron 
makes sense as a concept too.

>  What is "Israelitisdur Namer"?  Could it
> be surname?  Dictionaries, online and off not really helpful.

This is Israelischer Name or Jewish (Israelite) name. 

Fred



Pelican Lake Motorcoach Resort 
4788 Corian Court
Naples, FL 34114-9418
941-775-7838

Re: Kirchenpatron

Date: 1998/11/17 09:07:22
From: MARVIN Brandes <marf.brandes(a)wxs.nl>

I think kirchenpatron is the "protector" of the Church

FOhlsen550(a)aol.com schreef:
> 
> Hope someone can help me with definition.  Following was written c. 1970 by a
> native german-speaker who spent first ~25 years of her life in or around
> Rekum.  Written concerning a mutual ancestor in 18th or early 19th century
> Schwanewede.
> 
> "Major Vollrath Josua von Viereck
> Kirchenpatron in Schwanewede
> Vollrath Josua (Israelitisdur Namer)
> Natan Schwanewede (Christlicher Name)"
> 
> Apologize for my spelling errors, if any, this is what the handwriting looks
> like to me.  What is "Kirchenpatron"?   Patron of church seems too easy.
> Perhaps a civic position?  What is "Israelitisdur Namer"?  Could it be
> surname?  Dictionaries, online and off not really helpful.
> 
> Thank you in advance for any assistance rendered.
> 
> FOhlsen550(a)aol.com

Re: Ritter

Date: 1998/11/17 12:33:04
From: Carsten Laekamp <lakamp(a)capway.com>

"W. Fred Rump" <fred(a)k2nesoft.com> writes:

> On 16 Nov 98, at 13:47, Stopan(a)aol.com wrote about Re: Ritter:
> 
> > Hope it's warm for your old bones! Please do me a favor as I believe your
> > answer was cut short on "RITTER." Have a good winter.
> 
> Well, for once I was very short. :-)
> 
> Like I said, I believe that rider and Ritter are part of the same 
> germanic root. In the early days only the wealthy noble class could 
> afford a horse and these became the Ritter class - ie the knights of 
> old. Don't know what else I can add to that to make it any longer. 

Let me try :)
In high German (*not* Hochdeutsch as a standard language !), rider and
knight both translate to 'Ritter'.  
BTW: in 11th-Century English, "rider" meant a _knight_ who owned a
horse...things aren't that far apart :) 
This also means that not all knights could afford a riding horse (but
I guess that, in some regions, wealthy peasants ("labourers", 14th
cent.) could afford a draught horse).
 
-- 
Carsten Läkamp
claekamp(a)mindless.com

Place names

Date: 1998/11/17 14:13:16
From: Joanne Hintz <jhintz(a)wavefront.com>

Can anyone help decipher a couple of place names?  Due to difficulty reading
church records as well as possible misspellings at the time, one appears to be:

Augusta A Rudolph, born 11-3-1823 Sctwachewalde, Kreis Arnswalde, Pommern.

The maybe easier, unless there are many with the same name:

Aenstettin, Pommern



Civil War Papers found

Date: 1998/11/18 00:54:31
From: Frank Wenzel <fwenz(a)hom.net>

I'm passing this on from another mail list:

<<<<<<<<<<<<

This was posted on another list.  I have posted it here FYI.  I would
suggest that those of you who belong to other groups might pass it on. I
would be devastated if I missed something like this regarding one of my
ancestors.

 Subject: Mark Crosby Jr Discharge paper Civil War
 From: Richard H. Greene-rhunterg(a)ix.netcom.com
 Subject: Fwd:Found: Original Civil War Discharge Paper
 Date: Tue, 03 Nov 1998 14:39:24 -0800

 I don't know how to get this posted nation-wide.  But, I would like to see
this original document returned to a member of the original family.  My
mother-in-law bought a picture frame at an estate sale in Tucson, AZ.  When
she took the picture out and removed the cardboard from behind it, a very
delicate, old, and yellowed piece of paper fell out.  This is a summary of
what was written and readable on the paper:

 Civil War Discharge Paper
 For:  Mark CROSBY, Jr.
 Private, Company B, 16th Regiment Union Army
 From Yarmouth, Massachussetts
 Entered service in 1860 and left service 1864
 Marked Paid and signed by B. McCONNELL
 Description:
 5 ft. 3 inches, gray eyes, dark curly hair.
 He was a clerk in the Union Army.
 Entered in the Auditors records on July 26, 1870
 This document bears the Union Crest.

  Help me post this for others to read.  If you know someone who
 might be interested in this document, please E-Mail a reply to
 my inquiry. A life is not lost when it is known to future
 generations.  Help me keep Mark CROSBY, Jr. alive for his
 family.
 Forward this message to anywhere you think might help.
 Happy Hunting
 Nancy J. Smith
 n-smith1(a)ti.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


Frank Wenzel
fwenz(a)hom.net
Researching: Aders, Bendernagel, Bilstein, Crittenden, Eichele, Helck,
Horldin, Moore, Pape, Ranft, Smylie, Tucker, Van Ameringe & Wenzel


Re: Ritter

Date: 1998/11/18 03:04:10
From: Stopan <Stopan(a)aol.com>

Fred,

Thanks. The original message came thru with only the final 6-7 words. 
Yes, I will probably spend a good deal of time tomorrow worrying about you and
your air conditioning (or not) problems !! Maybe while I pick out my sweater
and worry about all that snow that is sure to come our way this winter.

Gary

German reference books

Date: 1998/11/18 16:39:54
From: Elissa Zurbuchen <eez1(a)psu.edu>

Hello:
        I am looking for a book that would help me with the basics of
searching for my Germanic ancestors.  I would like to have some sort of
book that would explain the changing of the borders/governments for
particular areas in Hannover (possibly Germany in general) and the dates
these things happen (possibly an overview of the history of this region -
as it pertains to genealogy).  Plus have a kind of detailed map, and have
sample query letters in German for various audiences (i.e. churches and
regular folks), plus tips on how best to send query letters (to include $
or not, how much information to send - if that information is in English,
etc)...  As well as info on how to search for German ancestors at LDS
and/or other locations.  Maybe a book that also includes genealogy terms
translations?  (Is there such a book that has all of this?)
        I'd like to try to get a book like this from "Santa," as I have
done my share of relying on the kindness of listserve members knowledge for
too long, and I'd like to take the time to learn the "basics" myself....
        Thanks to all the very helpful, patient people out there who have
helped me and others with their queries!  -elissa





Re: German reference books

Date: 1998/11/18 19:52:27
From: Jim Amaral <jamaral(a)columbus.rr.com>

I'm not sure it exists. Well,, Fred, go write that book! We'd probably all
like a copy!
Seriously tho, I collect books, and some of my favs are Thode's Germany
Genealogical Terms,Riemer' German Research Companion, Germanic Genealogy
(Germanic Genealogy Society); Baxter has a primer on ...your German Roots in
his series. Now, I'll back out and let the pro's give their grocery list!
JimA

Elissa Zurbuchen wrote:

> Hello:
>         I am looking for a book that would help me with the basics of
> searching for my Germanic ancestors.  I would like to have some sort of
> book that would explain the changing of the borders/governments for
> particular areas in Hannover (possibly Germany in general) and the dates
> these things happen (possibly an overview of the history of this region -
> as it pertains to genealogy).  Plus have a kind of detailed map, and have
> sample query letters in German for various audiences (i.e. churches and
> regular folks), plus tips on how best to send query letters (to include $
> or not, how much information to send - if that information is in English,
> etc)...  As well as info on how to search for German ancestors at LDS
> and/or other locations.  Maybe a book that also includes genealogy terms
> translations?  (Is there such a book that has all of this?)
>         I'd like to try to get a book like this from "Santa," as I have
> done my share of relying on the kindness of listserve members knowledge for
> too long, and I'd like to take the time to learn the "basics" myself....
>         Thanks to all the very helpful, patient people out there who have
> helped me and others with their queries!  -elissa


Re: German reference books

Date: 1998/11/18 20:31:53
From: PAUL F SCHEELE <PAULFSCHEELE(a)Prodigy.Net>




>Hello:
>        I am looking for a book that would help me with the basics of
>searching for my Germanic ancestors.

I recommend "The German Research Companion" authored by Shirley J. Riemer
and published by Lorelei Press.

Paul F Scheele



Re: German reference books

Date: 1998/11/18 22:42:01
From: Madsteinke <Madsteinke(a)aol.com>

Hello Elissa,

I have a book, that gives a very good overview about Germany and german
Research.
The name is:
Researching and Finding your German Heritage, ISBN 0-937463-12-4
(library of Congress Catalog Card-Number: 90-62026)
written by Marilyn Lind
It costs about 15 to 20$

the adress for order it is:

The Linden Tree
1204 West Prospect
Cloquet MN 55720
The contents of the book are:

- History and Geography
- the religions of the germanic people
- German emigration and migration
- immigration and settlement in the US
- the german ethnic culture and heritage
- german names
- gazeteers and maps
- records in Germany
- writing to Germany
and
german genealogical societies and publications


Marilyn Lind also wrote another book:
Researching your Family History and Heritage (ISBN 0-937463-13-2)
This book is for Research in the USA.

Greetings from Lueneburg (near Hamburg)

Matthias Steinke

Re: Place names

Date: 1998/11/19 01:34:18
From: Werner Honkomp <Werner.Honkomp(a)t-online.de>

Joanne Hintz schrieb:
> Can anyone help decipher a couple of place names?  Due to difficulty reading
> church records as well as possible misspellings at the time, one appears to
>  be:
>
> Augusta A Rudolph, born 11-3-1823 Sctwachewalde, Kreis Arnswalde, Pommern.
>
> The maybe easier, unless there are many with the same name:
>
> Aenstettin, Pommern
>
-------------------------------------------------
Hello Joanne Hintz,

your questions is a hard nut, because Pommern is now located in Poland (on the 
Ostsea Coast) and the places, villages and towns are most renamend after the 
WWII.

Near the town Stettin (now Szczecin) I found this places or villages:
- Falkenwalde, now Tanowo, 10 km north-west from Stettin
- Arnimswalde, now Zalom,  7 km East from Stettin
- Augustwalde, now Wielgowo, 10 km East from Stettin

I doun't know how you can research there.

Can anyone help in Poland?

Werner
--------------------------------------------------
Werner Honkomp         eMail: werner.honkomp(a)t-online.de
Ziegelhofstr. 35B    Homepage: http://home.t-online.de/home/werner.honkomp/
26121 Oldenburg      Genealogie: http://home.t-online.de/home/ww.honkomp/
GERMANY


Re: German reference books

Date: 1998/11/19 04:58:50
From: W. Fred Rump <fred(a)k2nesoft.com>

On 18 Nov 98, at 10:41, Elissa Zurbuchen wrote about German reference books:

>         I am looking for a book that would help me with the basics of
> searching for my Germanic ancestors.  I would like to have some sort of
> book that would explain the changing of the borders/governments for
> particular areas in Hannover (possibly Germany in general) and the dates
> these things happen (possibly an overview of the history of this region -
> as it pertains to genealogy).

Elissa, 
life should be so easy that we could buy a book to explain it all. :-)

Several good books have already been mentioned by others. There 
is a problem though in your request. Germany in general when? 
Remember at times there were hundreds of individual countries 
which eventually made up today's Germany. These merged, divided 
and remerged because of dynastic and other reasons again and 
again over time. There is no one book that explains it all. Most of 
this can only be discovered by concentrating one's research on 
local areas and then studying the various changes over time in 
detail. 

Hannover is a case in point. Where is it now? Where was it 
yesterday? But when was yesterday? Officially the country ceased 
to exist as an independent entity after the Prusso-Austrian war of 
1865. Before that it had a varied history which involves the 
Brunswick line and the kings of England. It is quite complicated in 
its totality. In 1803 it grew because of the secularization of the 
remaining religious principalities like the Prince-Bishopric of 
Osnabrueck (Fürstbistum). That country again has its own history 
going back a thousand years. Then there are all the smaller 
prinicipalities which existed within the greater whole. I wish there 
were a book which could cover it all but realistically one has to 
study the parts to nknow the whole and that is quite a job even for 
expert historians. 

>  Plus have a kind of detailed map, and have
> sample query letters in German for various audiences (i.e. churches and
> regular folks), plus tips on how best to send query letters (to include $
> or not, how much information to send - if that information is in English,
> etc)...  As well as info on how to search for German ancestors at LDS
> and/or other locations.  Maybe a book that also includes genealogy terms
> translations?  (Is there such a book that has all of this?)

Much of this is available on the German web site 
(www.genealogy.net). Too few people really research all the 
available material there. Even if some of it is in Germany only, it 
can be understood for its basic history. The terms, the letters, they 
are all out there. 

>         I'd like to try to get a book like this from "Santa," as I have
> done my share of relying on the kindness of listserve members knowledge
> for too long, and I'd like to take the time to learn the "basics"
> myself....

There will always be questions and Santa is the Internet. Use it. 
Ask questions. That's what the information revolutiuon is all about. 
Everybody is your neighbor.  

Fred



The Rumps at
Pelican Lake Motorcoach Resort 
4788 Corian Court
Naples, FL 34114-9418
941-775-7838   PS Genealogists live in the past lane


Meyer,Meier,Sehler,Seeler families

Date: 1998/11/19 20:54:29
From: LTBoehmke <LTBoehmke(a)aol.com>

My research in 1700s in the towns of Schellerton and Schwiecheldt in Hannover
includes the SEHLER/SEELER families.

I am researching also the MEYER,MEIER family of Gadenstedt from the same
period in Hannover.

I enjoying exchanging information.

Thanks, LaVerne

Brandes

Date: 1998/11/19 22:28:40
From: MARVIN Brandes <marf.brandes(a)wxs.nl>

Hi you all,

Searching for fam. of Henricus Christoffel Brandes,born 21-04-1790 in
Burgdorf, near Hannover.

Related fam;

- van der Hoeff
- Valk
- Tussenbroek
- Coucke
- Hodister

                                       Castelijn

Greetings,
		Marvin Brandes.



Re: Brandes

Date: 1998/11/19 23:11:51
From: LTBoehmke <LTBoehmke(a)aol.com>

One of my husband's ancestors first marriage was to a Brandes, but I don't
have his first names.
 In the second marriage record in the Ev.-Luth. church in Schellerton,
Hannover,
she is described as the Widow Ilse Margarethe Sophia BRANDES, born LEGE, 33
1/4 years old, and daughter of the retired Berend Lege, 18 June 1812.

 She would have been born about 1775. She died 21 Aug 1834 in Schellerton.

 Schellerton church burned in 1783, so the oldest records begin in 1874.

 Do hope this will provide some leads.

LaVerne

        

BLASS and SOHNS in Hannover

Date: 1998/11/19 23:28:38
From: Caiside <Caiside(a)aol.com>

Hello all:

I am (still) researching the name SOHNS in  Hannover city and in villages west
of Hannover. My Maria SOHNS was born somewhere in this area, about 1860--64.
Her parents (names unknown) died when she was young and she was raised by
aunts or cousins.  In about 1878, she married a musician, Adolph BLASS, whose
family were from Bielefeld in Westfalen.  Adolph and Maria had 1 daughter,
Johanne Blass, born March 1879  (place unknown).

Adolph and his father August, and possibly Adolph's brother Ernst, emigrated
sometime soon after that, and MAria and the baby followed in September 1879. 

I am searching for the birthplaces of Maria Sohns and Johanne Blass and am
interested in any information on the name SOHNS, as it seems to be a rare one.
Any SOHNS descendants out there?

Janet Cassidy-Stroh

Re: Place names

Date: 1998/11/20 05:09:24
From: W. Fred Rump <fred(a)k2nesoft.com>

On 18 Nov 98, at 21:46, Werner Honkomp wrote about Re: Place names:

I did not reply to this post because it has no business in the 
hannover list and should be addressed to pommern-
l(a)genealogy.net

Fred


Date sent:      	Wed, 18 Nov 1998 21:46:56 +0100
To:             	hannover-l(a)genealogy.net
Subject:        	Re: Place names
From:           	Werner.Honkomp(a)t-online.de (Werner Honkomp)
Send reply to:  	hannover-l(a)genealogy.net

> Joanne Hintz schrieb:
> > Can anyone help decipher a couple of place names?  Due to difficulty
> > reading church records as well as possible misspellings at the time, one
> > appears to
> >  be:
> >
> > Augusta A Rudolph, born 11-3-1823 Sctwachewalde, Kreis Arnswalde,
> > Pommern.
> >
> > The maybe easier, unless there are many with the same name:
> >
> > Aenstettin, Pommern
> >
> -------------------------------------------------
> Hello Joanne Hintz,
> 
> your questions is a hard nut, because Pommern is now located in Poland (on
> the Ostsea Coast) and the places, villages and towns are most renamend
> after the WWII.
> 
> Near the town Stettin (now Szczecin) I found this places or villages: -
> Falkenwalde, now Tanowo, 10 km north-west from Stettin - Arnimswalde, now
> Zalom,  7 km East from Stettin - Augustwalde, now Wielgowo, 10 km East
> from Stettin
> 
> I doun't know how you can research there.
> 
> Can anyone help in Poland?
> 
> Werner
> --------------------------------------------------
> Werner Honkomp         eMail: werner.honkomp(a)t-online.de
> Ziegelhofstr. 35B    Homepage:
> http://home.t-online.de/home/werner.honkomp/ 26121 Oldenburg     
> Genealogie: http://home.t-online.de/home/ww.honkomp/ GERMANY
> 


The Rumps at
Pelican Lake Motorcoach Resort 
4788 Corian Court
Naples, FL 34114-9418
941-775-7838   PS Genealogists live in the past lane


mail forward

Date: 1998/11/20 05:09:33
From: W. Fred Rump <fred(a)k2nesoft.com>

>Hello: I am looking for a book that would help me with 
the basics of
>>searching for my Germanic ancestors.

>I recommend "The German Research Companion" 
authored by Shirley J.
Riemer
>and published by Lorelei Press.

>Paul F Scheele

I agree. Good book.

Also try "The Atlantic bridge to Germany / by Charles M. 
Hall "  Logan,
Utah : Everton Publishers, c1974-c1993

Also "The German Connection" a periodical  by The 
German Research
Association.

Back issues can be found at:

http://www.feefhs.org/gra/gra-pub.html

There is a nice historical outline begining in Vol. 18, No. 
3, continued
in Vol. 19, No. 1, and concluding in Vol 19, No. 3. But 
there is a lot of
good information throughout.


**** But the following website is as good or better than 
any book ****:

http://www.genealogy.com/gene/

Excellent!!!

Thanks to everyone who made this site a reality! I really 
appreciate
it!

Paul





Re: Brandes

Date: 1998/11/20 18:02:17
From: MARVIN Brandes <marf.brandes(a)wxs.nl>

Hi,

Thank you for the info but that is another fam. and they have there TREE
on the internet, sorry but I don't know were the URL is ,if pass it
again I will let you now.
Thanks,

Marvin Brandes

LTBoehmke(a)aol.com schreef:
> 
> One of my husband's ancestors first marriage was to a Brandes, but I don't
> have his first names.
>  In the second marriage record in the Ev.-Luth. church in Schellerton,
> Hannover,
> she is described as the Widow Ilse Margarethe Sophia BRANDES, born LEGE, 33
> 1/4 years old, and daughter of the retired Berend Lege, 18 June 1812.
> 
>  She would have been born about 1775. She died 21 Aug 1834 in Schellerton.
> 
>  Schellerton church burned in 1783, so the oldest records begin in 1874.
> 
>  Do hope this will provide some leads.
> 
> LaVerne
> 
>



Re: Datenschutzgsetz

Date: 1998/11/21 22:06:17
From: W. Fred Rump <fred(a)k2nesoft.com>

On 20 Nov 98, at 12:08, Mary Ann Conrad wrote about Datenschutzgsetz:

Date sent:      	Fri, 20 Nov 1998 12:08:40 -0600
To:             	<fred(a)k2nesoft.com>
From:           	Mary Ann Conrad <maconrad(a)flash.net>
Subject:        	Datenschutzgsetz

> Fred,
> Can you explain this law to me.  I would like to to locate information on
> some ancestors in the Essen area, but several years ago they would not
> provide the info to me because of some law, but they did not explain.  I
> guess they assumed that I understood their reason for denying my request
> for a death record.  Does this rule also apply to church records?

This may be where someone else asked for an explanation but I 
did not understand where the confusion was. 

Europe, but especially Germany, have some very stringent lawsto 
pevent the dissemination of data to anyone but the government 
which apparently knows everything but isn't supposed to tell 
anyone about what it knows. The privacy laws have their good and 
bad points as a law-abiding public and an even more fussy 
bureaucracy stretch the law way beyond its actual implications. 

The law itseld is certainly designed to protect everyone from 
everyone else. That is everybody lives on an island in ever tighter 
and constricted space and it is felt that walls of privacy around 
every home and family are more important than the free 
dissemination of information. The internet especially is suspect of 
breaking these walls down and in effect have placed Europe into a 
developing nations category as far as information interchange goes. 
Vastly fewer people, on per capita basis, have internet access then 
they do in the US for example. That being said as a quick 
explantion how does this affect the genealogist?

Records kept by the state are kept private for 110 years. If one has 
specific requests and specific prior information as to birth dates 
and locations, and if one is directly related (Parent or child) one 
can get data from anywhere usually for a fee. Sadly, the churches 
have assumed that the state's laws are also their laws (they aren't). 
So in effect most church organizations hold themselves to the 
same tight privacy laws established by the state for itself. This 
means that a baptismal date is as secret as a church wedding 
date or a church burial. Most of the parties who are permitted 
access already now this information but so it goes. Others may 
punt. 

There is an out all this. If you can demonstrate a magical urgent 
and legal need for the data they will bend the rules and give it to 
you. But it's always a hassle and the onus for proof is up to you. 

>From personal experience I find that the system sucks to say the 
least. My poor mother searched all her life for the son of her 
deceased sister (my cousin was a baby at the time) but was 
unable to find him. I pursued the search and after two visits to 
Germany and many letters to all kinds of places and agencies, I 
finally wised up and told an Einwohnermeldeamt (civil registration 
bureau) that my mother had left a legacy to this person and that 
changed everything. They gave me his address but not his phone 
number. That was still illegal. :-) So I went to the nearest phone 
booth and looked it up. That finally established contact after an 
almost 50 year search. Such is the stupidity of laws which make 
no sense but all in the name of privacy. 

So, the Datenschutzgesetz, is the law which secures all this bliss 
for German citicens. They have a whole government branch with 
official guardians to ensure that no one leaks anything anywhere. 
The people say they like it that way. They do not understand that if 
the state kept its fingers out of their personal data, none of this 
would be necessary. But then we get into a whole different cultural 
thing where Americans tell the state basically nothing because we 
feel that is none of their business. Very different systems of 
government. 

Fred

    
The Rumps at
Pelican Lake Motorcoach Resort 
4788 Corian Court
Naples, FL 34114-9418
941-775-7838   PS Genealogists live in the past lane


Genealogical Societies?

Date: 1998/11/21 23:59:56
From: Caiside <Caiside(a)aol.com>

Can someone tell me whether there is a genealogical society in Hannover
(specialising in families from that area), and if so, their address?
Thanks,
Janet C-S

Re: Meyer,Meier,Sehler,Seeler families

Date: 1998/11/22 12:31:54
From: David & Jenny Myers <vk2rd(a)hunterlink.net.au>

Hi La Verne,

We have MEYER from Banteln, King. of Hannover, first known birth ca.
1816-17, Heinrich.

Just a little trivia, don't really expect to find a link anywhere.

Happy hunting
Jenny

vk2rd(a)hunterlink.net.au
David & Jenny Myers.
61 Fern Street,
ARCADIA VALE  2283  NSW



census?

Date: 1998/11/22 22:02:52
From: Caiside <Caiside(a)aol.com>

Hello all!
Can anyone tell me if there was any census taken in Hannover (Kingdom of) in
the 19th century? If so, are these available anywhere for research?
Thanks,
Janet C-S

birth records?

Date: 1998/11/23 18:21:20
From: Caiside <Caiside(a)aol.com>

Hello all,

I need to clarify something.  How are birth records kept in Germany? Is it by
town? or by county, or by state?  
I have just sent to Hannover for the birth record of my grandmother (Johanne
BLASS, 9 Mar 1879, dau of Adolph BLASS and Maria nee SOHNS). I have already
looked in the Lutheran church registry for the city and did not find her
baptism. So I really don't think I am going to find her birth record in the
city either. (In fact, I think I already wrote once, but can't find the
letter, so I am covering all bases by writing again.)

But what do I do next?  If I don't know what village she was born in, how do I
find the record?  Is there a central records location I can try?

Can't find her parents marriage record either. I having been trying everything
I can think of to scale this brick wall, but so far no luck.  

I have her in the Hamburg departure lists, with her mother--place of birth
simply "Hannover."  
I am doing a village by village search of baptism records for her mother
(Maria SOHNS born abt Feb 28, 1860-64), but the filmed records only go up to
1874. And 1860 is before civil registration. 
I have written to Altenhagen (near Springe) for these records on a hunch,
because there were many SOHNSes in the IGI from this village, But no luck.

ANy ideas, anyone?

Janet C-S

JACOBS 1801

Date: 1998/11/23 20:36:48
From: Deborah Waller <deborah.waller(a)virgin.net>

Hi there,

New to this particular list and to research in Germany.   I need a few
pointers.

I have a Gerhard JACOBS born about 1801 in Hannover.  Don't know if this
means the province or town but I do know that he came over in the mass
emigration to the East End of London during the early part of the 19th
century and was a sugar refiner.

Any ideas how I can go about looking for his baptism from the UK?

Debs



Re: JACOBS 1801

Date: 1998/11/23 22:13:56
From: Madsteinke <Madsteinke(a)aol.com>

Hello Deborah,

I just saw your query and have some few informations for you.

1. The surname Jacobs is too common to locate a town your ancestor came from.

2. I am researching my ancestors in villages near Bremen (mainly in the
district of Hoya).
In old documents, I found a lot of people, who went to London to work as sugar
refiner (in the documents, the profession is called Zuckerbaecker (sugar
baker). I dont know, why they did it. All I can say for now is, that quite all
were younger sons of farmers, who hadnt a chance to inherit the parental farm.
Have you some more informations about the sugar-companies in London?
Was there perhaps an owner from the former principality/kingdom of Hanover,
who made promotion to move to London?
In 1714, Duke Georg I of Hannover became King George I of England.
So, from 1714 to 1837 England and Hanover were under the same rule.
Perhaps, this was one of the reasons, why so many people went from Hanover to
London?
3. In the germanywide phone-book, I found some Jacobs in a town, from where I
know, that some people emigrated to London.
The adress of the evangelic (lutheran) church office is:

ev. Pfarramt Thedinghausen
27321 Thedinghausen
Germany

I know, that its like finding a needle in a hay-heap, but perhaps, you have
luck and find your ancestor.

By the way, a Jacobs found in Bremen a coffee-roasting establishment, which is
today one of the biggest in Germany (Jacobs-Kaffee).

Thats all for the moment.

Many greetings from snowy Lueneburg (near Hamburg)

Matthias Steinke

Re: Meyer,Meier,Sehler,Seeler families

Date: 1998/11/23 23:11:27
From: LTBoehmke <LTBoehmke(a)aol.com>

Thanks Jenny for your answer about Meyer.

My husbands maternal g-grandmother was born Sophie Marie Meyer in Gadenstedt,
Hannover.  Her father was Heinrich Conrad Meyer who married Catharine Marie
Juerries.

 As the Widow Burgdorf she married my husbands g-grandfather Christoph Conrad
Heinrich Sehler on 7 Mar 1844.  They settled in upstate New York, in what is
now Sanborn, NY between late 1844 and 1847.  About 1864 he sold his farms and
moved to Chester Township, Ottawa County, Michigan.

In Sophie 1838 marriage at St Nicolai church in Grosse Ilsede, to Johann
Heinrich Christian Brugdorf, she is recorded as Meyer.  It is spelled that way
in her baptismal record.

But at her marriage in 1844 at St Nicolai the name is spelled Meier.

Enjoy your hunting,
LaVerne

Re: birth records?

Date: 1998/11/24 13:03:38
From: Frank Wenzel <fwenz(a)hom.net>

Janet,

You have the same problem that I have. Birthplace is given as Hannover but
there seem to be no records in the City of Hannover.  What I've been doing
for almost a year now is tracing the descendants of one of the children
born in Germany in the hope of finding something that will pinpoint a city,
town or whatever where she was born.  Realistically I don't hold out much
hope but unless I try I'll never know.  Just last week I located a living
descendant of the immigrants daughter and am awaiting information from him.
 It's been long and tedious. 

If you arrive at another approach I sure would like to hear from you on
what it is.
 

Frank Wenzel
fwenz(a)hom.net
Researching: Aders, Bendernagel, Bilstein, Crittenden, Eichele, Helck,
Horldin, Moore, Pape, Ranft, Smylie, Tucker, Van Ameringe & Wenzel

----------
> From: Caiside(a)aol.com
> To: hannover-l(a)genealogy.net
> Subject: birth records?
> Date: Monday, November 23, 1998 12:19 PM
> 
> Hello all,
> 
> I need to clarify something.  How are birth records kept in Germany? Is
it by
> town? or by county, or by state?  
> I have just sent to Hannover for the birth record of my grandmother
(Johanne
> BLASS, 9 Mar 1879, dau of Adolph BLASS and Maria nee SOHNS). I have
already
> looked in the Lutheran church registry for the city and did not find her
> baptism. So I really don't think I am going to find her birth record in
the
> city either. (In fact, I think I already wrote once, but can't find the
> letter, so I am covering all bases by writing again.)
> 
> But what do I do next?  If I don't know what village she was born in, how
do I
> find the record?  Is there a central records location I can try?
> 
> Can't find her parents marriage record either. I having been trying
everything
> I can think of to scale this brick wall, but so far no luck.  
> 
> I have her in the Hamburg departure lists, with her mother--place of
birth
> simply "Hannover."  
> I am doing a village by village search of baptism records for her mother
> (Maria SOHNS born abt Feb 28, 1860-64), but the filmed records only go up
to
> 1874. And 1860 is before civil registration. 
> I have written to Altenhagen (near Springe) for these records on a hunch,
> because there were many SOHNSes in the IGI from this village, But no
luck.
> 
> ANy ideas, anyone?
> 
> Janet C-S

Re: birth records for Bohnankamp

Date: 1998/11/24 18:03:55
From: halseth <halseth(a)wmich.edu>

I too am looking for birth records--place of birth, Hannover.  Elizabeth
Bohnankamp (b. abt. 1838) and Francis Willie Bohnankamp (b. Nov. 15, 1846)
were born in "Hannover" November 15, 1846; the family was in Buffalo, New
York in 1847; the next children were born in Canada; four Bohnankamps were
married between 1864 and 1870 in Berrien County, Michigan.

I've seen genealogical records of a family group in Iowa who spelled their
surname Bohnenkamp.  I don't know if they are related.

December 5 I'm going to the Family History Library, Salt Lake City, for a
week of research.  Any suggestions on records I might pursue on my
Hannover people?  Thank you.

Judith Huber Halseth
halseth(a)wmich.edu





Markendorff

Date: 1998/11/24 22:41:43
From: PHYLLIS A RAKER <FVXC96B(a)prodigy.com>

I, also, would love to be able to find births and marriages in 
Hannover.  On a death certificate
I find place of birth as Markendorff   (Sp??)      I have also seen 
Buer in reference to this family.
How do these areas line up as city?, village?, state?    ??????

John Obertate (have seen on different documents Casper and Henry used 
with John).
Born 14 Feb 1852.     Came to USA in 1872.
Died 28 Sept 1937, Carroll Co. KY.
I have found the will of a Casper Henry Obertate, b. Markendorff, 
1827, d. Rising Sun IN 1880's., who
had a son, Casper Henry b. 1866 IN.      
Somehow I would think these Obertates would be of the same family.
Would truly appreciate any input anyone can give me.
Phyllis Counts Raker, Cincinnati

Hannover birth records

Date: 1998/11/24 23:16:43
From: Caiside <Caiside(a)aol.com>

Hello all,
No one has yet answered my question, so I'll repeat it. Are birth records in
what was once the Kingdom of Hannover, now kept at the village level? the
county level? or the state level?  
If I don't know the exact village someone was born in, is there a central
repository I can write to?
Thanks,
Janet C-S

Re: birth records for Bohnankamp

Date: 1998/11/25 01:27:40
From: Werner Honkomp <Werner.Honkomp(a)t-online.de>

Judith,
the name Bohnakamp is not present in Germany,
but the German phone directory shows 519 times Bohnenkamp.

Werner
------------------------------------------------------
halseth(a)wmich.edu schrieb:
> I too am looking for birth records--place of birth, Hannover.  Elizabeth
> Bohnankamp (b. abt. 1838) and Francis Willie Bohnankamp (b. Nov. 15, 1846)
> were born in "Hannover" November 15, 1846; the family was in Buffalo, New
> York in 1847; the next children were born in Canada; four Bohnankamps were
> married between 1864 and 1870 in Berrien County, Michigan.
>
> I've seen genealogical records of a family group in Iowa who spelled their
> surname Bohnenkamp.  I don't know if they are related.
>
> December 5 I'm going to the Family History Library, Salt Lake City, for a
> week of research.  Any suggestions on records I might pursue on my
> Hannover people?  Thank you.
>
> Judith Huber Halseth
> halseth(a)wmich.edu
>
>
>
>

Werner Honkomp         eMail: werner.honkomp(a)t-online.de
Ziegelhofstr. 35B    Homepage: http://home.t-online.de/home/werner.honkomp/
26121 Oldenburg      Genealogie: http://home.t-online.de/home/ww.honkomp/
GERMANY


Re: Genealogical Societies?

Date: 1998/11/25 01:29:29
From: W. Fred Rump <fred(a)k2nesoft.com>

On 21 Nov 98, at 17:59, Caiside(a)aol.com wrote about Genealogical Societies?:

From:           	Caiside(a)aol.com
Date sent:      	Sat, 21 Nov 1998 17:59:01 EST
To:             	hannover-l(a)genealogy.net
Subject:        	Genealogical Societies?
Send reply to:  	hannover-l(a)genealogy.net

> Can someone tell me whether there is a genealogical society in Hannover
> (specialising in families from that area), and if so, their address?
> Thanks, Janet C-S
> 

Hanover as a kingdom was quite large and included many areas 
which were and still are of different regional character. One 
therefore finds quite a number of genealogical local and regional 
societies within the confines of the old kingdom. 

On the other hand various societies overlap Hanover ainclude it as 
part of their regional territory. You can find these on the German 
genealogy pages if you check out the regional and super-regional 
sections for Vereine or societies. See http://www.genealogy.com 
and work your way to your answers.

Fred


The Rumps at
Pelican Lake Motorcoach Resort 
4788 Corian Court
Naples, FL 34114-9418
941-775-7838   PS Genealogists live in the past lane


Re: Hannover birth records

Date: 1998/11/25 01:54:43
From: MITHRUS1 <MITHRUS1(a)aol.com>

Janet.
Writing might be fruitless at this point.  What you need to do is obtain the
Civil Records for Hannover, or specifically the nearest church, near a
village.  That is how I have been successful.  Another option, was to locate
the main Church used by people in Hannover, then obtain the mar; birth; death
records for the year you seek thru the FHC- LDS films.
I found them most interesting and useful....
Mithrus1(a)aol.com

> No one has yet answered my question, so I'll repeat it. Are birth records in
>  what was once the Kingdom of Hannover, now kept at the village level? the
>  county level? or the state level?  
>  If I don't know the exact village someone was born in, is there a central
>  repository I can write to?
>  Thanks,
>  Janet C-S

Re: birth records for Bohnankamp

Date: 1998/11/25 05:02:19
From: halseth <halseth(a)wmich.edu>

To Werner Honkomp:  Thanks for looking up my Bohnankamp surname, and
finding instead the 519 Bohnenkamps in the German phone directory.  This
helps me move in the direction of looking for the correct spelling 
of the surname. At my local Family History Center (Kalamazoo, Michigan) 
today, I found only Bohnenkamps listed in Prussia.  Again, thank you,
Werner.  Judith Halseth




Re: birth records for Bohnankamp

Date: 1998/11/25 06:37:29
From: Werner Honkomp <Werner.Honkomp(a)t-online.de>

Judith,
you can find two email-addresses of Bohnenkamp via Internet:
http://www.suchen.de/

Type the name in the field "Nachname".

Werner
-----------------------------------------------------------
halseth(a)wmich.edu schrieb:
> I too am looking for birth records--place of birth, Hannover.  Elizabeth
> Bohnankamp (b. abt. 1838) and Francis Willie Bohnankamp (b. Nov. 15, 1846)
> were born in "Hannover" November 15, 1846; the family was in Buffalo, New
> York in 1847; the next children were born in Canada; four Bohnankamps were
> married between 1864 and 1870 in Berrien County, Michigan.
>
> I've seen genealogical records of a family group in Iowa who spelled their
> surname Bohnenkamp.  I don't know if they are related.
>
> December 5 I'm going to the Family History Library, Salt Lake City, for a
> week of research.  Any suggestions on records I might pursue on my
> Hannover people?  Thank you.
>
> Judith Huber Halseth
> halseth(a)wmich.edu
>
>
>
>

Werner Honkomp         eMail: werner.honkomp(a)t-online.de
Ziegelhofstr. 35B    Homepage: http://home.t-online.de/home/werner.honkomp/
26121 Oldenburg      Genealogie: http://home.t-online.de/home/ww.honkomp/
GERMANY


Re: birth records for Bohnankamp

Date: 1998/11/25 07:30:35
From: Mel Bulgerin <melton(a)execpc.com>


Werner Honkomp wrote:

> Judith,
> you can find two email-addresses of Bohnenkamp via Internet:
> http://www.suchen.de/
>
> Type the name in the field "Nachname".
>
> Werner
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> halseth(a)wmich.edu schrieb:
> > I too am looking for birth records--place of birth, Hannover.  Elizabeth
> > Bohnankamp (b. abt. 1838) and Francis Willie Bohnankamp (b. Nov. 15, 1846)
> > were born in "Hannover" November 15, 1846; the family was in Buffalo, New
> > York in 1847; the next children were born in Canada; four Bohnankamps were
> > married between 1864 and 1870 in Berrien County, Michigan.
> >
> > I've seen genealogical records of a family group in Iowa who spelled their
> > surname Bohnenkamp.  I don't know if they are related.
> >
> > December 5 I'm going to the Family History Library, Salt Lake City, for a
> > week of research.  Any suggestions on records I might pursue on my
> > Hannover people?  Thank you.
> >
> > Judith Huber Halseth
> > halseth(a)wmich.edu
> >
> >
> >Dear Werner:

Could you check the URL for [suchen.de]?     I have tried it twice and the net
can't find the
address.   Looks very interesting though for us German Americans hunting for
ancestors
who seemed not to have lived.

>From us Americans getting ready to celebrate our Danksagungstag, we wish you the

very best from  Wisconsin, USA

      Mel Bulgerin    --- melton(a)execpc.com

> >
>
> Werner Honkomp         eMail: werner.honkomp(a)t-online.de
> Ziegelhofstr. 35B    Homepage: http://home.t-online.de/home/werner.honkomp/
> 26121 Oldenburg      Genealogie: http://home.t-online.de/home/ww.honkomp/
> GERMANY




Re: Hannover birth records

Date: 1998/11/25 16:07:49
From: W. Fred Rump <fred(a)k2nesoft.com>

On 24 Nov 98, at 17:15, Caiside(a)aol.com wrote about Hannover birth records:

From:           	Caiside(a)aol.com
Date sent:      	Tue, 24 Nov 1998 17:15:53 EST
To:             	hannover-l(a)genealogy.net, owner-hannover-l(a)genealogy.net
Subject:        	Hannover birth records

> Hello all,
> No one has yet answered my question, so I'll repeat it. Are birth records
> in what was once the Kingdom of Hannover, now kept at the village level?
> the county level? or the state level?  If I don't know the exact village
> someone was born in, is there a central repository I can write to? Thanks,
> Janet C-S
> 

I suppose no one has answered becauser there is no such thing as 
a birthrecord in the Kingdom of Hanover. Babies were born and 
their parents took them to church to have them baptized. 
Sometimes they would enter the birthdate in the church books, 
sometimes not. They important date was what concerened the 
Church, ie the baptismal date. That is all there is until Prussian 
rules formulated across the new German empire after 1871 took 
the registration of vital data over from the Church. 

All this means that there is no central depository except for the 
church books collected by their respective religious archives and in 
some cases duplicate entries which are held by public (state) 
archives.  

Fred


The Rumps at
Pelican Lake Motorcoach Resort 
4788 Corian Court
Naples, FL 34114-9418
941-775-7838   PS Genealogists live in the past lane


Re: Markendorff

Date: 1998/11/25 16:08:25
From: W. Fred Rump <fred(a)k2nesoft.com>

On 24 Nov 98, at 16:32,  PHYLLIS A RAKER wrote about Markendorff:

Phyllis,
I don't have any maps with me here but I'm sure others can jump in 
here. I believe Markendorf is somewhere in the east, maybe in 
Brandenburg and would have nothing to do with Hanover. Perhaps 
there are smaller places with similar or the same name in the 
Hanover area too but I don't know of any.

> I, also, would love to be able to find births and marriages in 
> Hannover.  On a death certificate
> I find place of birth as Markendorff   (Sp??)      I have also seen 
> Buer in reference to this family.
> How do these areas line up as city?, village?, state?    ??????
 
Buer is now part of Melle, not too far from Osnabrück and you can 
find information about that parish under the regional and historical 
states (see Osnabrück). In other words Buer was part of the Prince-
Bishopric of Osnabrück until 1803 when that state became part of 
Hanover. In 1865 all that became a part of Prussia. 

Fred



The Rumps at
Pelican Lake Motorcoach Resort 
4788 Corian Court
Naples, FL 34114-9418
941-775-7838   PS Genealogists live in the past lane


Civil records

Date: 1998/11/25 19:09:16
From: Caiside <Caiside(a)aol.com>

In a message dated 11/25/98 11:13:43 AM, fred(a)k2nesoft.com wrote:

<<I suppose no one has answered becauser there is no such thing as 
a birthrecord in the Kingdom of Hanover. Babies were born and 
their parents took them to church to have them baptized. 
.......That is all there is until Prussian 
rules formulated across the new German empire after 1871 took 
the registration of vital data over from the Church. >>

OK, let me rephrase the question.  After 1871 (I had heard it was 1874?)  when
civil registration was started, how were records kept?  On town levels, county
levels, or statewide, or what?

Thanks,
Janet

Re: Hannover birth records

Date: 1998/11/25 20:46:37
From: DARLA K KEMLER <i-luv-angels(a)juno.com>


On Tue, 24 Nov 1998 19:53:14 EST MITHRUS1(a)aol.com writes:
>Janet.
>Writing might be fruitless at this point.  What you need to do is 
>obtain the
>Civil Records for Hannover, or specifically the nearest church, near 
>a
>village.  That is how I have been successful.  

Where does one find the addresses for these places?
Thanks Bob Kemler
___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

Re: birth records for Bohnankamp

Date: 1998/11/25 20:56:59
From: Werner Honkomp <Werner.Honkomp(a)t-online.de>

Hi Mel,
I checked the URL "www.suchen.de", it is ok. Try it again!

Werner
-----------------------------------------------
Mel Bulgerin schrieb:
>
>
> Werner Honkomp wrote:
>
> > Judith,
> > you can find two email-addresses of Bohnenkamp via Internet:
> > http://www.suchen.de/
> >
> > Type the name in the field "Nachname".
> >
> > Werner
> > -----------------------------------------------------------
> > halseth(a)wmich.edu schrieb:
> > > I too am looking for birth records--place of birth, Hannover.  Elizabeth
> > > Bohnankamp (b. abt. 1838) and Francis Willie Bohnankamp (b. Nov. 15, 1846)
> > > were born in "Hannover" November 15, 1846; the family was in Buffalo, New
> > > York in 1847; the next children were born in Canada; four Bohnankamps were
> > > married between 1864 and 1870 in Berrien County, Michigan.
> > >
> > > I've seen genealogical records of a family group in Iowa who spelled their
> > > surname Bohnenkamp.  I don't know if they are related.
> > >
> > > December 5 I'm going to the Family History Library, Salt Lake City, for a
> > > week of research.  Any suggestions on records I might pursue on my
> > > Hannover people?  Thank you.
> > >
> > > Judith Huber Halseth
> > > halseth(a)wmich.edu
> > >
> > >
> > >Dear Werner:
>
> Could you check the URL for [suchen.de]?     I have tried it twice and the net
> can't find the
> address.   Looks very interesting though for us German Americans hunting for
> ancestors
> who seemed not to have lived.
>
> >From us Americans getting ready to celebrate our Danksagungstag, we wish you
>  the
>
> very best from  Wisconsin, USA
>
>       Mel Bulgerin    --- melton(a)execpc.com
>
> > >
> >
> > Werner Honkomp         eMail: werner.honkomp(a)t-online.de
> > Ziegelhofstr. 35B    Homepage: http://home.t-online.de/home/werner.honkomp/
> > 26121 Oldenburg      Genealogie: http://home.t-online.de/home/ww.honkomp/
> > GERMANY
>
>
>

Werner Honkomp         eMail: werner.honkomp(a)t-online.de
Ziegelhofstr. 35B    Homepage: http://home.t-online.de/home/werner.honkomp/
26121 Oldenburg      Genealogie: http://home.t-online.de/home/ww.honkomp/
GERMANY


Re: Markendorff

Date: 1998/11/26 01:20:11
From: Werner Honkomp <Werner.Honkomp(a)t-online.de>

PHYLLIS A RAKER schrieb:
> I, also, would love to be able to find births and marriages in 
> Hannover.  On a death certificate
> I find place of birth as Markendorff   (Sp??)      I have also seen 
> Buer in reference to this family.
> How do these areas line up as city?, village?, state?    ??????
--------------------------------------->
The villages Bür (Buer) and Markendorf are parts of the town Melle, county 
Osnabrück.
Melle is 20 km westerly of Osnabrück, Melle-Bür is 8 km north-east of Melle and 
Melle-Markendorf 4 km westerly of Melle.
(We have also a Markendorf near Frankfurt/Oder, near the boarder to Poland)
Melle-Bür have a Church, I think catholic.

>
> John Obertate (have seen on different documents Casper and Henry used 
> with John).
> Born 14 Feb 1852.     Came to USA in 1872.
> Died 28 Sept 1937, Carroll Co. KY.
> I have found the will of a Casper Henry Obertate, b. Markendorff, 
> 1827, d. Rising Sun IN 1880's., who
> had a son, Casper Henry b. 1866 IN.      
> Somehow I would think these Obertates would be of the same family.
> Would truly appreciate any input anyone can give me.
> Phyllis Counts Raker, Cincinnati
----------------------------------->
The phone directory have not the name Obertate or like this anywhere, you should 
check the spelling.

Werner
-----------------------------------------------------
Werner Honkomp         eMail: werner.honkomp(a)t-online.de
Ziegelhofstr. 35B    Homepage: http://home.t-online.de/home/werner.honkomp/
26121 Oldenburg      Genealogie: http://home.t-online.de/home/ww.honkomp/
GERMANY


Hanover Map

Date: 1998/11/26 03:29:17
From: Dennis & Mary <leblanc(a)ridgecrest.ca.us>

Hi All,  I picked up an 1862 map of Northern Germany which shows the
Kingdom of Hanover. The map is from a mapbook by Johnson and Ward.  There
are quite a few town names. If anyone wants me to look for theirs, let me
know.  Mary

Re: Hanover Map

Date: 1998/11/26 16:56:34
From: JBeck88803 <JBeck88803(a)aol.com>

Hi Mary,

Could tell me where you got the map of Hanover, I would love to have one.

Thank you,

Joan

Re: Hanover Map

Date: 1998/11/26 23:41:38
From: Jillwall <Jillwall(a)aol.com>

Hi, 
I got my map of Germany which includes the surrounding area at Barnes & Noble.
It is large and in English-- called a Euro-Cart map 1:800,000.
I compare it with the maps of various parts of Germany from the early 1800's
which I am hunting for that I find on the German regions on the net.
Good luck. Mary

State of Osnabruck/Hannover

Date: 1998/11/27 02:18:43
From: Stopan <Stopan(a)aol.com>

Dear List,

Would someone enlighten me as to the military significance of this small area
-- 1800-50. It seems that there was more "action" going on here than in most
of the other "German" states including Prussia.
As far as I can tell, one of the reasons my g-grand emigrated was to avoid the
draft and I seem to have met many others from this area who's ancestors left
for the same reason.

Thanks,

Gary Stoltman
Mercerville, NJ


Re: Civil records

Date: 1998/11/27 14:51:02
From: W. Fred Rump <fred(a)k2nesoft.com>

On 25 Nov 98, at 13:06, Caiside(a)aol.com wrote about Civil records:

> OK, let me rephrase the question.  After 1871 (I had heard it was 1874?)
> when civil registration was started, how were records kept?  On town
> levels, county levels, or statewide, or what?
> 

Ok, that's better. :-)

The official story for Germany is local records. The word 
Standesamt was meant to record the status or state of the people 
who had to report there by law. In larger towns they also have an 
Einwohnermeldeamt which is closely connected and usually right 
next to or part of the local police station. One has to go to this 
office (or to the police) and report in as one moves into the 
neighborhood. The idea is to tell where you came from and 
everything is nicely tracked so that no one gets lost to the people 
data base which the system requires. All this is computer driven 
and they can track your every move and know everything there can 
possibly be known about you and your family. This is why they 
worry so much about this data getting out into the open. 

I watched the clerks who work in these agencies and how they 
were able to access the whole life history of my cousin on the 
other side of the desk but they wouldn't tell me anything about 
what they saw. Very frustrating. His divorce was there, his 
remarriage, his various moves. By hook or by crook I got some of it 
out of them after I mentioned an inheritance for him. They pushed a 
print key and out printed probably more than I was supposed to get.

Anyway, the local Standesamt is the official record keeper of the 
various life events which happen in the area assigned to that 
particular district. I'm not sure how the Einwohnermeldeamt figures 
into the scheme but that's where they seem to have the same 
database as the Standesamt. So, don't look for any data on a 
regional basis like a county or Kreis. It's usually at the local level.

Fred

  
The Rumps at
Pelican Lake Motorcoach Resort 
4788 Corian Court
Naples, FL 34114-9418
941-775-7838   PS Genealogists live in the past lane


THESING

Date: 1998/11/27 15:34:46
From: steve wehling <al78412(a)caller.infi.net>

steve wehling wrote:
> 
> steve wehling wrote:
> Hi
> This is from the Lage Parish, Rieste, Germany records from 1854 to 1874
> 
> Just a comment on the parties looking for there families home town in
> Germany, We had our best luck researching the heck out of our families here in
> the States first!!! We did find our home town by the Obits in the German papers in
> Cincinnati,> but even then we still need to do more ground work here in the States to
> get all the relationships correct. Good Luck!!!!!
> 
> A lot of the Sirnames listed below found there way to the Cincinnati
> area
> 
> 
> .............................................................................
> > > Marriage March 1, 1853
> > > Georg THESING born 1829 in Rieste
> > > father Bernard THESING
> > > Mother Elisabeth STOCKHOVE
> > > he married
> > > Maria Bernardina KUHL born Nov. 1826
> > > her father Heinrich KUHL
> > > mother Anna Maria BIEST
> > > ..........................................................................
> > > Birth July 1, 1853
> > > Heinrich Joseph THESING
> > > father Gerhard THESING
> > > mother Margaretha WUBBOLT
> > > .................................................................................
> > > Death Sept. 4, 1853
> > > Heinrich Joseph THESING
> > > father Gerhard THESING
> > > mother Margaretha WIEBBOLT
> > > ................................................................................
> > > Birth Sept. 20, 1854
> > > Catharina Bernardina THESING
> > > father Bernard Heinrich THESING
> > > mother Ann Maria WESTENDORF
> > > .........................................................................
> > > Death Nov. 28, 1854
> > > TORBECKE, Johan Heinrich Wilhelm
> > > 70 years 5 months    [ he was married to Anna Maria FELDKAMP]
> > > father Johan Heinrich TORBECKE
> > > mother Ann Maria THEISSING
> > > ................................................................................
> > > Death March 29, 1854
> > > MOLLMAN Catharina Maria born TORBECKE
> > > 71 years 10 months
> > > father Heinrich TORBECKE
> > > mother Anna Maria THEISING
> > > ..................................................................................
> > > Death July 29, 1855 in Alfhausen
> > > THESING Anton Joseph
> > > 33 years 2 months 6 days
> > > father Bernard Heinrich THESING
> > > mother Maria Gertude WELAGE  [parents from Rieste]
> > > ...............................................................................
> > > Birth Jan 8, 1855 in Alfhausen
> > > THESING Bernard Georg Anton
> > > father Reinhart Johann Heinrich THESING
> > > mother Maria Elisabeth WEIBBOLT
> > > ............................................................................
> > > Birth Nov. 15, 1856
> > > Johann Gerhard THESING
> > > father Bernard THESING
> > > mother Bernardina KUHL
> > > ...........................................................................
> > > Birth Oct. 1 1857
> > > THESING Georg Bernard
> > > father Bernard THESING
> > > mother Anna Maria WESTENDORF
> > > ................................................................................
> > > Birth Oct. 23, 1857
> > > THESING Catharina Bernardina Elisabeth
> > > father Heinrich THESING
> > > mother Ragina BULTMAN
> > > ..............................................................................
> > > Birth August 22, 1858
> > > THESING Johan Bernard
> > > father Bernard Heinrich THESING
> > > mother Bernardina KUHL
> > > ...........................................................................
> > > Birth March 2, 1859
> > > THESING Bernard Wilhelm
> > > father Gerhart THESING
> > > mother Margaretha WUBBOLT
> > > ...............................................................................
> > > Death April 30, 1859
> > > THESING Johan Bernard
> > > 67years 7 months 10 days
> > > father Johan heinrich THESING
> > > mother Margaretha STUARMAN [HUARMAN]
> > > .....................................................................                   Birth July 8 1861
> > > Heinrich Christian THESING
> > > father Heinrich THESING
> > > mother Ragina BULLMAN
> > > ..................................................................................
> > > Birth August 1, 1861
> > > Franz Joseph THESING
> > > father Bernard Heinrich THESING
> > > mother Bernardina KUHL
> > > ................................................................................
> > > Birth Feb. 4, 1865
> > > Ragina Bernardina THESING
> > > father Heinrich THESING
> > > mother Ragina BULLMAN
> > > ...........................................................................
> > > Birth Oct. 10 1865
> > > Casper Karl THESING
> > > father Bernard Heinrich THESING
> > > mother Bernardina KUHL
> > > ...............................................................................
> > > Birth Feb. 13 1868
> > > Johan Gerhard Bernard THESING
> > > father Heinrich THESING
> > > mother Ragina BULLMAN
> > > ...........................................................................
> > > Death Jan 5, 1869
> > > THESING, Anna Maria born WESTENDORF in Rieste
> > > 44 years 1 month [married Bernard Thesing March 14, 1851 in Rieste]
> > > father Johann Bernard WESTENDORF
> > > mother Catharina Maria LIENESCH
> > > ............................................................................
> > > Birth July 4, 1870
> > > THESING Anna maria
> > > father Heinrich THESING
> > > mother Ragina BULTMAN
> > > ...............................................................................
> > > Marriage Sept. 9, 1872
> > > DALMON Friedrich Herman B. Jan 13, 1842
> > > father Heinrich DALMON
> > > mother Maria Adelhied THESING
> > > he married
> > > SCHULZE Catharina Maria Elizabeth born March 26, 1855
> > > her father Herman SCHULZE
> > > mother Catharina STUCKENBURG
> > > ............................................................................
> > > Birth Nov. 1, 1857
> > > THESING Maria Margaretha Antonette THESING
> > > father Johan Heinrich THESING
> > > mother Elizabeth WIEBBOLT
> > > ........................................................................................

Maps

Date: 1998/11/27 18:16:37
From: Deborah Waller <deborah.waller(a)virgin.net>

Just picked up on Marys note and it got me thinking!

Can anyone point me to a website that would have a map I could download
for the kingdom of Hannover c. 1800.  My geography is bad at the best of
times but in this time period it is definately way off base!

Cheers,

Debs


Re: Maps

Date: 1998/11/27 19:07:07
From: Werner Honkomp <Werner.Honkomp(a)t-online.de>

Deborah Waller schrieb:
> Just picked up on Marys note and it got me thinking!
>
> Can anyone point me to a website that would have a map I could download
> for the kingdom of Hannover c. 1800.  My geography is bad at the best of
> times but in this time period it is definately way off base!
>
> Cheers,
>
> Debs
----------------------------------------------->
Dear Debs,
I have a small map on my genealogy website, see below.
And than click: 
Politische Karte/Political Map 1815-1871 old Kingdom of Hanover/Oldenburg/ 
Westphalia

Werner

Werner Honkomp         eMail: werner.honkomp(a)t-online.de
Ziegelhofstr. 35B    Homepage: http://home.t-online.de/home/werner.honkomp/
26121 Oldenburg      Genealogie: http://home.t-online.de/home/ww.honkomp/
GERMANY


Re: census?

Date: 1998/11/28 03:57:58
From: Doug Plowman <dplowman(a)newnorth.net>

Caiside(a)aol.com wrote:
> 
> Hello all!
> Can anyone tell me if there was any census taken in Hannover (Kingdom of) in
> the 19th century? If so, are these available anywhere for research?
> Thanks,
> Janet C-S
Hi Janet:
	I did find a census for the area where my ancestor was from which is a 
small town of Rehburg in district of Stolzenau. The microfilm is 
available from LDS.  A description of the record says " Court records of 
an account of hearths, horses, manors, estates, populace, buildings, 
house taxes, inhabitants, homes, animals, blind and deaf of the court of 
Stolzenau, Hannover, Preussen. To check to see if there are census for 
Hanover type in Germany Preussen Hannover Census.The census record for 
Rehburg in Stolzenau was from 1861 and the main information is the names 
of the people living in that area for example it says:
Heinrich Mackeben Tagelohner age 36
Maria Mackeben  his frau (wife)	 age 36
Friedrich Mackeben his son age 11
Sophia Mackeben age 5
Louisa Mackeben age 2 
Caroline age 1
So with this information you will have approximate birth dates and then 
you can write to the church for more information as the church records 
for this area have not been microfilmed. I was able to  find several 
families and this census was a great help in determining my great 
grandfather's brothers and sisters as his father's first wife died in 
1859 and his father remarried. 
Also check Hannover for Taxation records as there are some taxation 
records.

Good luck

Doug Plowman

Re: Hanover Map

Date: 1998/11/28 05:51:09
From: Dennis & Mary <leblanc(a)ridgecrest.ca.us>

I got this map in an antique store.  It's an original page from a book of
maps.  The map itself in 11" X 14", then there is a fancy edge.  It is hand
colored.  The coloring in important because there are some detached places
that are actually part of Hanover.  If you want a copy, I will find out
what the cost would be to duplicate it in color and mail it in a tube.  Mary

At 10:54 AM 11/26/98 EST, you wrote:
>Hi Mary,
>
>Could tell me where you got the map of Hanover, I would love to have one.
>
>Thank you,
>
>Joan
>
>

Re: census?

Date: 1998/11/28 13:49:55
From: JBeck88803 <JBeck88803(a)aol.com>

Hi Doug,

I am also looking for records for my g-g-grandparents that came from the
Kingdom of Hanover, I have no idea what the name of the village or town is.
Is there microfilm  
available from LDS for the Kingdom of Hanover?  Please reply.

Thank you,
Joan

Re: Hanover Map

Date: 1998/11/28 13:52:41
From: JBeck88803 <JBeck88803(a)aol.com>

Thank you Mary I would like a copy, find out if it can be copied and the cost
I would appreciate it.

Thank you,
Joan

Re: census?

Date: 1998/11/28 16:11:01
From: Doug Plowman <dplowman(a)newnorth.net>

JBeck88803(a)aol.com wrote:
> 
> Hi Doug,
> 
> I am also looking for records for my g-g-grandparents that came from the
> Kingdom of Hanover, I have no idea what the name of the village or town is.
> Is there microfilm
> available from LDS for the Kingdom of Hanover?  Please reply.
> 
> Thank you,
> Joan
Hi Joan:

	As far as I know there is no census for Hannover such as the United 
States Census. Even if there was a census, it would be difficult to find 
your ancestor if one would have to go through an entire census. You will 
need to find a specific town or county where they are from.
Check the county histories where they settled or check to see if other 
people in the area are from Hannover as there records may give the name 
of the town. I know that my ancestor settled in northern Illinois and I 
was amazed as to how many other people were from the same area in 
Hannover.
	Another source is to check the German phone book on the internet, 
especially if you have an uncommon name and you might be able to zero to 
an area where the surname is predominant. For example, even this day the 
surname Mackeben is still found in Rehburg and most the people with that 
name still live there. Obviously if your surname is Schulz, it is not a 
clue.
	I think before you can proceed you will need to know the name of the 
town. One of the best sources I have found for names of towns have been 
the American church records. 
Good luck.

Doug Plowman

Re: Maps

Date: 1998/11/28 17:17:45
From: Robert F. Niehaus <rniehaus(a)mindspring.com>

At 07:56 AM 11/27/98 +0000, you wrote:
>Just picked up on Marys note and it got me thinking!
>
>Can anyone point me to a website that would have a map I could download
>for the kingdom of Hannover c. 1800.  


Debs,  I have a Kingdom of Hannover map, <Copy> dated 1832, and marked <in
accord with the Treaty of Paris, 1815>  I bought it over the internet from
<www.ancestry.com> from their on-line store map collection, which is a
large one.  No gazeteer/index was with it.    Bob

Re: census?

Date: 1998/11/28 17:32:42
From: Robert F. Niehaus <rniehaus(a)mindspring.com>

At 09:33 AM 11/28/98 +0000, you wrote:
>JBeck88803(a)aol.com wrote:
>> 
>> Hi Doug,
>> 
>> I am also looking for records for my g-g-grandparents that came from the
>> Kingdom of Hanover, I have no idea what the name of the village or town is.
>> Is there microfilm
>> available from LDS for the Kingdom of Hanover?  Please reply.
>> 
 Joan, To add to Doug's comments:

If you know their death date and city in the U.S., look up the newspaper
archives, preferably a German Language paper of that time.  The death
notice was often in gothic script and in German, but solvable. 

Be careful of >D's> that look like <B's> etc in the script.  In Cincinnati,
for my Ggrandaprents, the notices includes the town and area of their birth
in Hannover, Oldenburg, et al.  You can search out the town location on
e-mail address <geo(a)genealogy.net> by sending just one word, the name of
the town, eg <Holdorf> and receive within hours the towns with that name,
counties (as in the U.S.) State, population, assuming the town still
exists.        Bob

Re: Hanover Map

Date: 1998/11/28 18:16:34
From: Judy and Tom Martin <martin(a)warwick.net>

JBeck88803(a)aol.com wrote:
> 
> Thank you Mary I would like a copy, find out if it can be copied and the cost
> I would appreciate it.
> 
> Thank you,
> Joan

Hello Mary. If you don't get inundated with requests, I would like very
much to have a map too.  

Judy

Re: State of Osnabruck/Hannover

Date: 1998/11/28 20:05:37
From: W. Fred Rump <fred(a)k2nesoft.com>

On 26 Nov 98, at 20:17, Stopan(a)aol.com wrote about State of Osnabruck/Hannover:

> Would someone enlighten me as to the military significance of this small
> area -- 1800-50. It seems that there was more "action" going on here than
> in most of the other "German" states including Prussia. As far as I can
> tell, one of the reasons my g-grand emigrated was to avoid the draft and I
> seem to have met many others from this area who's ancestors left for the
> same reason.

Gary,
upon what do you base these assumptions? One of the most 
common 'stories' of why people emigrated is their desire to escape 
the draft, often when such a thing never even existed. They then 
turn around and immediately join the American army to fight and 
die in the Civil War. Something doesn't jive.

Hanover had a very small standing army which is why it was no 
match against Prussian forces. The whole concept of standing 
armies was not really invented until the Prussians invented it as 
part of their state system designed to expand and protect their little 
country which was growing against much bigger foes all around 
them. 

Factually, just aboiut all emigrants left because they were destitute 
and poor. They wanted an opportunity to own something and have 
a better life for their children. These opportunities did not exist at 
home were they were born into a status which was inherited by 
their children. Very hopeless!

In this country such a background of poverty did not make for a 
good family background. Other stories were invented which made 
the old country less evil and less destitute etc etc. 

Fred

 

The Rumps at
Pelican Lake Motorcoach Resort 
4788 Corian Court
Naples, FL 34114-9418
941-775-7838   PS Genealogists live in the past lane


Re: Hannover birth records

Date: 1998/11/29 00:19:13
From: Bob Wall <bgw3133(a)USAC.net>

Jannet;
You ask all the right questions.  If you receive an answer to this one
PLEASE let me know about it also.

Jean Wall

Caiside(a)aol.com wrote:
> 
> Hello all,
> No one has yet answered my question, so I'll repeat it. Are birth records in
> what was once the Kingdom of Hannover, now kept at the village level? the
> county level? or the state level?
> If I don't know the exact village someone was born in, is there a central
> repository I can write to?
> Thanks,
> Janet C-S

Immigration to Rehburg area

Date: 1998/11/29 20:12:03
From: Doug Plowman <dplowman(a)newnorth.net>

The birthplace of Ludwig MACKEBEN as listed in his marriage record says 
he was born in Minden in 1803. Seeing that there is a Minden in 
Westphalia I checked the records and could not find his birth record. 
There is another town Minden near the TRIER area. Did people from this 
area immigrate to the  Hannover area ? Would the invasion of Napolean 
cause people to emigrate further north or would occupation such as cow 
or sheep herder have any effect. Would like more on the history of 
Rehburg area.

Thanks,
Doug Plowman

Re: Hanover Map

Date: 1998/11/29 20:41:01
From: Dennis & Mary <leblanc(a)ridgecrest.ca.us>

Hi Judy,  I found out I can get a very good color copy for $2.  I will
check on the cost of mailing tubes, and postage within the US this week.
Mary L.

At 12:17 PM 11/28/98 -0400, you wrote:
>JBeck88803(a)aol.com wrote:
>> 
>> Thank you Mary I would like a copy, find out if it can be copied and the
cost
>> I would appreciate it.
>> 
>> Thank you,
>> Joan
>
>Hello Mary. If you don't get inundated with requests, I would like very
>much to have a map too.  
>
>Judy
>
>

Re: Hanover Map

Date: 1998/11/29 20:45:43
From: Dennis & Mary <leblanc(a)ridgecrest.ca.us>

Hi Joan,  I found out the cost of a good quality, color copy which is $2.
In a few days I will check on the cost of mailing within the US and will
let you know.  Mary L.  

At 07:50 AM 11/28/98 EST, you wrote:
>Thank you Mary I would like a copy, find out if it can be copied and the cost
>I would appreciate it.
>
>Thank you,
>Joan
>
>

Map request

Date: 1998/11/29 21:04:48
From: PHYLLIS A RAKER <FVXC96B(a)prodigy.com>

Could/Would you do a map for me when you are copying?

For tubes:    Do you have a Frame and Save near you?   or maybe 
another frame shop.
Our Frame and Save will give away the tubes they have on hand, that 
they have accumulated.
Worth a try.
Phyllis   --- in Cincinnati

Markendorff-Attn:Fred

Date: 1998/11/29 21:08:33
From: PHYLLIS A RAKER <FVXC96B(a)prodigy.com>

Fred, thank you for your reply to my questions about Markendorff.

AND   would you order some NICE weather for when we visit Naples in 
February.  

Phyllis

Re: Immigration to Rehburg area

Date: 1998/11/29 21:19:25
From: Jens Th. Kaufmann <Jens-Kaufmann(a)t-online.de>

Doug Plowman schrieb:
> The birthplace of Ludwig MACKEBEN as listed in his marriage record says 
> he was born in Minden in 1803. Seeing that there is a Minden in 
> Westphalia I checked the records and could not find his birth record. 
> There is another town Minden near the TRIER area. Did people from this 
> area immigrate to the  Hannover area ? Would the invasion of Napolean 
> cause people to emigrate further north or would occupation such as cow 
> or sheep herder have any effect. Would like more on the history of 
> Rehburg area.
>
> Thanks,
> Doug Plowman

Doug,

The Mackeben family is mentioned in the Rehburg area already since the 1600s. 
The surname was in earlier times spelled "Mackefen", "Mackeven" and "Mackäfen". 
So I don't think that your ancestor came from Minden in Westphalia or from 
Minden near Trier. Is the place name "Minden" clearly readable on the marriage 
record?

Jens Th. Kaufmann
Dipl.-Bibl., genealogist
Reisweg 10
D-38116 Braunschweig
Germany 



Markendorff-Attn:Werner

Date: 1998/11/29 21:21:17
From: PHYLLIS A RAKER <FVXC96B(a)prodigy.com>

Werner, I do appreciate your reply to my Markendorff questions.   
I get this location on a death certificate for John Obertate.    
You suggested that I should check the spelling for Obertate-----------
-John Obertate arrived in USA, 1872,
and during the mid-1870's was a church secretary/seketahr.  I have 
some copies of his minutes written
in German.   He signed his name John Obertodte (two dots over the 
second o  , and I know there is a
word for that but it escapes me right now.)    His marriage license, 
1874. the name Casper H. Obertate
is used.   And on his naturalization application dated 1876 he used 
the name John Obertate.
To further complicate my search:   the death certificate used the 
name John Henry obertate.
and the obituary in the newspaper used John Casper Obertate.
So, IF I could find the rest of the naturalization papers, I might 
get some answers.

Would you look in the Germany wide phone directory for the name Reker.
   (and that one is now
Raker, I'm sure it was changed way back.)  Also , was the Hannover 
area.   (Family hand-me-down was
that the Raker/Reker family came from a dairy farm, just outside 
Hannover.
Can I access this phone directory?

Many thanks, for all you input.............................Phyllis, 
in Cincinnati

Re: DEPENBROCK, Lage Parish 1853- 1874,Rieste Germany

Date: 1998/11/29 22:14:40
From: steve wehling <al78412(a)caller.infi.net>

steve wehling wrote:
> 
> This is all the DEPENBROCK`S in the Lage Register from 1853 to 1874
> Lage Parish, Rieste, Germany [Hannover Region]
> Marriage Feb. 23, 1854
> Johann Bernard Anton WEGLAGE from Rieste
> parents Herman Heinrich WEGLAGE
> and Antonette BELM.
> he married
> Catharina Maria Elizabeth DEPENBROCK from Rieste
> parents Johann Heinrich DEPEBROCK
> and Maria Adelhied STOCKHOVE
> ...............................................
> Death April 10, 1854
> DEPENBROCK, Catharina Elizabeth age ?
> parents Heinrich DEPENBROCK and
> Catharina Maria KREHE from Rieste
> ...........................................
> Birth May 13, 1856
> WEGLAGE, Herman Heinrich
> father Johann Bernard WEGLAGE
> mother Elizabeth Depenbrock
> godparents Heinrich DEPENBROCK and Joseph STOCKHOVE
> ...................................................
> Death Feb. 20, 1856
> REVERMAN, Johann Heinrich Joseph  73 years 9 months 8 days
> father Georg REVERMAN
> mother Margaretha Maria DEPENBROCK
> [Johann REVERMAN was married to Catharina Maria KOOP]
> ......................................................
> Death Sept. 5, 1856
> DEPENBROCK, Maria Elizabeth age ?
> father Joseph DEPENBROCK
> mother Maria Catharina FRYE
> .............................
> Birth August 14, 1858
> WEGLAGE, Henry Bernard
> father Bernard DEPENBROCK
> mother Elizabeth DEPENBROCK
> Godparents Henry Colon STOCKHAU and Heinrich KOTTE
> ...........................
> Death Feb. 20, 1858
> DEPENBROCK, Johann Heinrich 58 years 8 months, 17 days
> father Rudolph DEPENBROCK
> mothe Catarina Maria TORBECKE
> ...............................
> Birth Nov. 16, 1860
> WEGLAGE, Maria Bernardina Antonette
> father Bernard WEGLAGE
> mother Elisabeth DEPENBROCK
> ..................................
> Marriage May 11, 1864
> GOSKER, Herman Heinrich born August 17, 1837,Rieste
> father Heinrich joseph GOSKER
> mother Maria Gertrut LUTTMER
> he married
> DEPENBROCK, Catharina Maria born Nov. 8 1833
> her father Heinrich DEPENBROCK
> mother Maria Adelhied STOCKHOVE
> Godparents Joseph Haguen and Dina DEPENBROCK
> ..............................................
> Death April 22, 1864
> WEGLAGE, Herman Heinrich Joseph, 7 years 11 months 8 days
> father Bernard WEGLAGE
> mother Elizabeth DEPENBROCK
> .......................................................
> Birth March 5, 1865
> WEGLAGE, Bernard Joseph
> father Bernard WEGLAGE
> mother Elizabeth DEPENBROCK
> ............................
> Marriage Nov. 27, 1867
> DEPENBROCK Joseph Anton born
> oct. 22, 1839 in Horsten
> father Joseph DEPENBROCK
> mother Catharina Maria KREHE
> he married
> MELSMAN, Elizabeth Gertrude born
>  June 25, 1840 in Neuenkirchen
> father Andra MELSMAN
> mother Anna Maria VAN DREKLE
> ..................................
> Birth Sept. 25, 1867
> WEGLAGE Herman Heinrich Georg
> father Bernard WEGLAGE
> mother Elizabeth DEPENBROCK
> Godparents Georg STUCKENBERG
> and Heinrich TESING
> ............................
> Death Sept. 11, 1867
> WEGLAGE, Johann Bernard Anton 44 years 9 months, 3 days
> father Herman Heinrich WEGLAGE
> mother Antonetta BELM
> [Johann married Elizabeth DEPENBROCK feb. 23. 1854]
> ....................................................
> Death July 11, 1867
> DEPENBROCK, Franz Joseph from Rieste,
> 62 years,1 month,3 days
> father Heinrich DEPENBROCK
> mother Maria Gertrud SCHURMAN
> [Franz was married to Catharina FRYE August 9, 1842]
> .....................................................
> Death Feb. 28, 1870
> MOLLMAN, Maria Elizabeth geb IMWALLE age 70 born in Rieste
> father Johann Heinrich IMWALLE
> mother Margaretha DEPENBROCK
> [Maria married MOLLMAN Nov. 30, 1860]
> .......................................
> 
> This is from Alfhausen
> Death Dec. 14, 1856
> DEPENBROCK, Anna Maria
> father Heinrich DEPENBROCK
> mother Adelhied WESTELKAMP
> [both parents from Rieste]
> ................................................
> 
>                              Steve Wehling

[Fwd: DEPENBROCK, Lage Parish 1853- 1874,Rieste Germany]

Date: 1998/11/29 22:21:31
From: steve wehling <al78412(a)caller.infi.net>

--- Begin Message ---
This is all the DEPENBROCK`S in the Lage Register from 1853 to 1874

Marriage Feb. 23, 1854
Johann Bernard Anton WEGLAGE from Rieste
parents Herman Heinrich WEGLAGE
and Antonette BELM.
he married 
Catharina Maria Elizabeth DEPENBROCK from Rieste
parents Johann Heinrich DEPEBROCK
and Maria Adelhied STOCKHOVE
...............................................
Death April 10, 1854
DEPENBROCK, Catharina Elizabeth age ?
parents Heinrich DEPENBROCK and 
Catharina Maria KREHE from Rieste
...........................................
Birth May 13, 1856
WEGLAGE, Herman Heinrich
father Johann Bernard WEGLAGE
mother Elizabeth Depenbrock 
godparents Heinrich DEPENBROCK and Joseph STOCKHOVE
...................................................
Death Feb. 20, 1856
REVERMAN, Johann Heinrich Joseph  73 years 9 months 8 days
father Georg REVERMAN
mother Margaretha Maria DEPENBROCK
[Johann REVERMAN was married to Catharina Maria KOOP]
......................................................
Death Sept. 5, 1856
DEPENBROCK, Maria Elizabeth age ?
father Joseph DEPENBROCK
mother Maria Catharina FRYE
.............................
Birth August 14, 1858
WEGLAGE, Henry Bernard
father Bernard DEPENBROCK
mother Elizabeth DEPENBROCK
Godparents Henry Colon STOCKHAU and Heinrich KOTTE
...........................
Death Feb. 20, 1858
DEPENBROCK, Johann Heinrich 58 years 8 months, 17 days
father Rudolph DEPENBROCK
mothe Catarina Maria TORBECKE
...............................
Birth Nov. 16, 1860
WEGLAGE, Maria Bernardina Antonette
father Bernard WEGLAGE
mother Elisabeth DEPENBROCK
..................................
Marriage May 11, 1864 
GOSKER, Herman Heinrich born August 17, 1837,Rieste
father Heinrich joseph GOSKER
mother Maria Gertrut LUTTMER
he married 
DEPENBROCK, Catharina Maria born Nov. 8 1833
her father Heinrich DEPENBROCK
mother Maria Adelhied STOCKHOVE
Godparents Joseph Haguen and Dina DEPENBROCK
..............................................
Death April 22, 1864
WEGLAGE, Herman Heinrich Joseph, 7 years 11 months 8 days
father Bernard WEGLAGE
mother Elizabeth DEPENBROCK
.......................................................
Birth March 5, 1865
WEGLAGE, Bernard Joseph
father Bernard WEGLAGE
mother Elizabeth DEPENBROCK
............................
Marriage Nov. 27, 1867
DEPENBROCK Joseph Anton born 
oct. 22, 1839 in Horsten
father Joseph DEPENBROCK
mother Catharina Maria KREHE
he married 
MELSMAN, Elizabeth Gertrude born
 June 25, 1840 in Neuenkirchen
father Andra MELSMAN
mother Anna Maria VAN DREKLE
..................................
Birth Sept. 25, 1867
WEGLAGE Herman Heinrich Georg
father Bernard WEGLAGE
mother Elizabeth DEPENBROCK
Godparents Georg STUCKENBERG
and Heinrich TESING
............................
Death Sept. 11, 1867
WEGLAGE, Johann Bernard Anton 44 years 9 months, 3 days
father Herman Heinrich WEGLAGE
mother Antonetta BELM 
[Johann married Elizabeth DEPENBROCK feb. 23. 1854]
....................................................
Death July 11, 1867
DEPENBROCK, Franz Joseph from Rieste,
62 years,1 month,3 days
father Heinrich DEPENBROCK
mother Maria Gertrud SCHURMAN
[Franz was married to Catharina FRYE August 9, 1842]
.....................................................
Death Feb. 28, 1870
MOLLMAN, Maria Elizabeth geb IMWALLE age 70 born in Rieste
father Johann Heinrich IMWALLE
mother Margaretha DEPENBROCK
[Maria married MOLLMAN Nov. 30, 1860]
.......................................


This is from Alfhausen
Death Dec. 14, 1856
DEPENBROCK, Anna Maria 
father Heinrich DEPENBROCK
mother Adelhied WESTELKAMP 
[both parents from Rieste] 
................................................

                             Steve Wehling




--- End Message ---

Re: Hanover Map

Date: 1998/11/30 00:54:46
From: JBeck88803 <JBeck88803(a)aol.com>

Thank you Mary I appreciate your efforts.

Thanks,
Joan

Re: Hanover Map

Date: 1998/11/30 02:17:43
From: Frank Wenzel <fwenz(a)hom.net>

Mary,

What year is the Hannover map?


Frank Wenzel
fwenz(a)hom.net
Researching: Aders, Bendernagel, Bilstein, Crittenden, Eichele, Helck,
Horldin, Moore, Pape, Ranft, Smylie, Tucker, Van Ameringe & Wenzel

----------
> From: Dennis & Mary <leblanc(a)ridgecrest.ca.us>
> To: hannover-l(a)genealogy.net
> Subject: Re: Hanover Map
> Date: Sunday, November 29, 1998 2:35 PM
> 
> Hi Judy,  I found out I can get a very good color copy for $2.  I will
> check on the cost of mailing tubes, and postage within the US this week.
> Mary L.
> 
> At 12:17 PM 11/28/98 -0400, you wrote:
> >JBeck88803(a)aol.com wrote:
> >> 
> >> Thank you Mary I would like a copy, find out if it can be copied and
the
> cost
> >> I would appreciate it.
> >> 
> >> Thank you,
> >> Joan
> >
> >Hello Mary. If you don't get inundated with requests, I would like very
> >much to have a map too.  
> >
> >Judy
> >
> >

Re: Re: Hanover Map

Date: 1998/11/30 02:37:35
From: Caiside <Caiside(a)aol.com>

In a message dated 11/29/98 9:19:48 PM, fwenz(a)hom.net wrote:

<<What year is the Hannover map?

>>

Can someone get a copy from Mary and put it on a Hannover web page?
Janet

Re: Hanover Map

Date: 1998/11/30 03:07:34
From: MRS DOLORES J GILES <EBMN94A(a)prodigy.com>

Hi, Mary,
I am also interested in your map. Please let me know the cost of 
copying and mailing.
Thanks,
Dolores 

Re: Immigration to Rehburg area

Date: 1998/11/30 03:17:26
From: Doug Plowman <dplowman(a)newnorth.net>

Jens Th. Kaufmann wrote:
> 
> Doug Plowman schrieb:
> > The birthplace of Ludwig MACKEBEN as listed in his marriage record says
> > he was born in Minden in 1803. Seeing that there is a Minden in
> > Westphalia I checked the records and could not find his birth record.
> > There is another town Minden near the TRIER area. Did people from this
> > area immigrate to the  Hannover area ? Would the invasion of Napolean
> > cause people to emigrate further north or would occupation such as cow
> > or sheep herder have any effect. Would like more on the history of
> > Rehburg area.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Doug Plowman
> 
> Doug,
> 
> The Mackeben family is mentioned in the Rehburg area already since the 1600s.
> The surname was in earlier times spelled "Mackefen", "Mackeven" and "Mackäfen".
> So I don't think that your ancestor came from Minden in Westphalia or from
> Minden near Trier. Is the place name "Minden" clearly readable on the marriage
> record?
Hi Jens:
	I have not seen the marriage record personally. I have written to the 
church in Rehburg and they sent me a typed extract of the record. I had 
originally written in 1972 and again last year and both times they said 
Ludwig Mackeben was born Nov 10, 1803 and the birth place of Minden. I 
have ordered the LDS films for various churches in Minden Westphalia and 
I could not find any Mackebens and I have also written to several 
sources in Minden and they could not find anything. I even took a guess 
that maybe it was Munden (with an umlaut) any maybe the pastor mis read 
the birthplace, but a letter came back from the church in Munden and 
they have no record.
	I have found the 1861 census for Stolzenau and found about 10 Mackeben 
families and several Mackeben families came to America. 
The second marriage for Ludwig Mackeben born 10 Nov 1803 at Minden son 
of cow shepherd Ludwig Mackeben and his wife Dorothea WEGENER to 
Catharine Marie Louise DUNKER of Schneeren, daughter of Johann Heinrich 
Dunker and his wife Catharine Marie MEERING	, married 25 April 1859.
Ludwig first marriage was to Katharina  Dorothea Margarete NORDMEYER on 
8 May 1825.
	In reviewing the correspondence, it was his second marriage that says 
born 10 November 1803 zu Minden.
	I have been working on genealogy since about 1964 and the Mackeben 
family is my only family from western part of Germany, all of my other 
ancestry are from Pommern area and am 100% German background.
	Ludwig Mackeben died 9 November 1865, right after my great grandfather 
Heinrich Friedrich Christian Wilhelm ( Ludwig ) was born 21 July 1865.
Since I have written twice and received the same answer, I assume Minden 
is correct and thought maybe his father was in the military in 1803 and 
that is why he was in Minden as I believe that Minden was the military 
post for that area.
	
Any suggestions?

Thank you,

Doug Plowman

 
> 
> Jens Th. Kaufmann
> Dipl.-Bibl., genealogist
> Reisweg 10
> D-38116 Braunschweig
> Germany

Re: Hanover Map

Date: 1998/11/30 06:36:40
From: Dennis & Mary <leblanc(a)ridgecrest.ca.us>

The map is 1862.  Mary

At 07:53 PM 11/29/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Mary,
>
>What year is the Hannover map?
>
>
>Frank Wenzel
>fwenz(a)hom.net
>Researching: Aders, Bendernagel, Bilstein, Crittenden, Eichele, Helck,
>Horldin, Moore, Pape, Ranft, Smylie, Tucker, Van Ameringe & Wenzel
>
>----------
>> From: Dennis & Mary <leblanc(a)ridgecrest.ca.us>
>> To: hannover-l(a)genealogy.net
>> Subject: Re: Hanover Map
>> Date: Sunday, November 29, 1998 2:35 PM
>> 
>> Hi Judy,  I found out I can get a very good color copy for $2.  I will
>> check on the cost of mailing tubes, and postage within the US this week.
>> Mary L.
>> 
>> At 12:17 PM 11/28/98 -0400, you wrote:
>> >JBeck88803(a)aol.com wrote:
>> >> 
>> >> Thank you Mary I would like a copy, find out if it can be copied and
>the
>> cost
>> >> I would appreciate it.
>> >> 
>> >> Thank you,
>> >> Joan
>> >
>> >Hello Mary. If you don't get inundated with requests, I would like very
>> >much to have a map too.  
>> >
>> >Judy
>> >
>> >
>
>

Re: Markendorff-Attn:Werner

Date: 1998/11/30 19:59:56
From: Werner Honkomp <Werner.Honkomp(a)t-online.de>

PHYLLIS A RAKER schrieb:
> Werner, I do appreciate your reply to my Markendorff questions.   
> I get this location on a death certificate for John Obertate.    
> You suggested that I should check the spelling for Obertate-----------
> -John Obertate arrived in USA, 1872,
> and during the mid-1870's was a church secretary/seketahr.  I have 
> some copies of his minutes written
> in German.   He signed his name John Obertodte (two dots over the 
> second o  , and I know there is a
> word for that but it escapes me right now.)    His marriage license, 
> 1874. the name Casper H. Obertate
> is used.   And on his naturalization application dated 1876 he used 
> the name John Obertate.
> To further complicate my search:   the death certificate used the 
> name John Henry obertate.
> and the obituary in the newspaper used John Casper Obertate.
> So, IF I could find the rest of the naturalization papers, I might 
> get some answers.
----------------------->
I'm sorry, but I can't find Obertate, Obertäte or Obertödte in the German wide 
phone directory.
Names like this are: Oberthaler, Obertacke, Oberstädt, Oberstatter, Oberstetter.

>
> Would you look in the Germany wide phone directory for the name Reker.
>    (and that one is now
> Raker, I'm sure it was changed way back.)  Also , was the Hannover 
> area.   (Family hand-me-down was
> that the Raker/Reker family came from a dairy farm, just outside 
> Hannover.
---------------------------->
I found 753 Reker and 255 Raker.

> Can I access this phone directory?
-------------------->
Yes, I have the directory on a CD-ROM, but you can access the phone directory 
via Internet: www.teleauskunft.de  but it is very slowly.
eMail directory: www.suchen.de

Werner
-----------------------------------------------------------
Werner Honkomp         eMail: werner.honkomp(a)t-online.de
Ziegelhofstr. 35B    Homepage: http://home.t-online.de/home/werner.honkomp/
26121 Oldenburg      Genealogie: http://home.t-online.de/home/ww.honkomp/
GERMANY


Re: Maps

Date: 1998/11/30 20:15:16
From: Werner Honkomp <Werner.Honkomp(a)t-online.de>

To Deborah,
you can find a map via INTERNET by University-Oldenburg/NAUSA:

http://www.uni-oldenburg.de/nausa/

Werner
------------------------------------------------------------
Deborah Waller schrieb:
> Just picked up on Marys note and it got me thinking!
>
> Can anyone point me to a website that would have a map I could download
> for the kingdom of Hannover c. 1800.  My geography is bad at the best of
> times but in this time period it is definately way off base!
>
> Cheers,
>
> Debs
>

Werner Honkomp         eMail: werner.honkomp(a)t-online.de
Ziegelhofstr. 35B    Homepage: http://home.t-online.de/home/werner.honkomp/
26121 Oldenburg      Genealogie: http://home.t-online.de/home/ww.honkomp/
GERMANY


Gerlach

Date: 1998/11/30 21:54:18
From: TIM M BROWN <TIMBROWN2(a)Prodigy.Net>

I am looking for information on Edmund Christian Gerlach He went by Christian.  He and his wife Dorthea Scheukel along with their children immigrated to the us in 1868.  I have one of their children Friedericke Wilhemine being born in Steigerthal.  If anyone has any information on these people please let me know.  Anything would be helpfull. 
Sandy in Missouri