Date: 1998/07/02 09:41:18
From: Joachim Kammerer <kammerer(a)zeiss.de>
Hi, I'm looking for my ancestors in bavaria, around Hof & Wunsiedel (Oberfranken). Names (starting ~1720): ADLER-BARTH-GROSS-HONTMANN-JAHN-KAMMERER-LIPPERT-MERKEL- NOTHHAFT-RAITHEL-RANCK-RAUH-RICHTER-ROEDEL-SARTORIUS- STEINHÄUS(S)ER-STROESSNER-THOMA-WEIDENHAMMER-WIETZEL Abteilung/Department: Ersteller/Author: Kammerer Telefon/Phone: 07364/20-2603 Fax/Telefax: 07364/20-4800
Date: 1998/07/07 16:55:59
From: Bob & Mary Ann Pfennig <robertpf(a)freewwweb.com>
Researching the KILIAN family from Mittelfranken: Anna Maria KILIAN [*4 Dec 1859, Weigenheim; oo Friedrich HORN (Ringenberg, Nordrheinland) 4 Apr 1886, Norlina, NC; +21 Jul 1936, Hurlock, MD] dau of Johann Bartholomaeus KILIAN [*19 Jul 1821, Wiebelsheim, oo Margaretha HAMMERBACHER (dau of Johann Stephen HAMMERBACHER of Stoechach Muehle), 8 Aug 1852, Weigenheim; +19 Jul 1876] Johann's father was Georg Leonard KILIAN [*15 Jun 1796, Wiebelsheim; oo Anna Katharina KRAEULEIN (dau of Johann Georg KRAEULEIN of Linden); +14 Mar 1862] Anyone with info on the KILIAN family or related families is asked to contact me. Thank you in advance. Bob Pfennig in New Braunfels, TX wo das Leben ist schoen - schoener heute - es regnete!
Date: 1998/07/23 05:46:49
From: Joseph Broom <broomjoe(a)email.msn.com>
LET'S WAKE THIS LIST UP WITH A ROLL CALL!! Unterfranken Ancestors: Grossostheim: KEHRER, ZAHN, BALLMANN, HOEFLING, NAUN, KREIN Pflaumheim: ZAHN Grunmorsbach: STAAB, SEIZ, HOCK, Rothebuch: EDELMANN, STEGMANN, MELLING Niedernberg: CLEMENT, SEITZ, FECHER Joe Broom broomjoe(a)email.msn.com
Date: 1998/07/23 07:38:36
From: Bill Allen <allen(a)nconnect.net>
I am trying to identify the parents and German birthplaces of my g-g-gparents, Friedrich KLOEPPEL and Margaretha Barbara LENZ who immigrated to Cincinnati separately around 1850 and were married at St. Matthaeus Evang. Lutheran Church in Cincinnati, 16 Apr 1854. I have tried to search the Church's records for info such as a Family Register, but I have found nothing. I don't know whether either of them were members when they were married there; however, they were regular Lutherans after they moved to Jennings Tsp., Putnam Co, OH abt 1856. They lived there until their deaths, and many of their descendants live in this area today. >From Delphos OH Lutheran church records, I know that Margaretha Barbara LENZ was b. 21 Mar 1827 or 1825 in OBERFRANKEN (upper Franconia), village/town not known. Possibilities for her father include: 1. Michael Lenz, listed in 1849/50, 1850/51, & 1853 Cincinnati city directories, dry goods, W 5th St (between Race & Elm) 2. Mathias Lenz, 1855 city directory, & nat. record V. 31, p194 3. Leopold Lenz, 1856 city directory & 1860 census, Ward 10 4. Friedrich Lenz, 61, with dau's Margaretha, 24, and Elizabeth, 21, arrived in Baltimore from Gellershausen, DEU, 1 June 1850. I haven't located Gellerhausen in Oberfranken? I have done a surname frequency study based on the internet German phonebook site records, and the town with the greatest frequency of LENZ surnames in Oberfranken seems to be 95131 Schwarzenbach a Wald. I can't find any church records for this town in the LDS collection? As a matter of fact, I can't find this town listed in LDS records?? I have located the town on the map, and it is about 5000 population, so I can't understand why LDS doesn't recognize it? Friedrich Kloeppel, b. 27 Jun 1823 (per Delphos OH Lutheran church records), Schwarzburg-Sonderhausen (village not known), DEU. Researching this area in DEU, I have found a Johann Friedrich Klöppel, b. 27 Mar 1822, in Gudersleben (a small village a few kilometers south of Sonderhausen), who immigrated to America in 1851. I believe this is my ancestor, but I do not know why the dates do not match. From the German records, it appears that the father of this Johann Friedrich Klöppel, Johann Heinrich Klöppel (b. 3 Jul 1800) came to America in 1852 with his second wife, Friederike Dorothea Penzler (b. 20 Jan 1828). Any assistance or suggestions would be appreciated. Nancy Bank Allen West Bend, WI allen(a)nconnect.net
Date: 1998/07/23 13:14:52
From: David F Schmidt <dfschmidt(a)earthlink.net>
Detter, Schwarzen Haag (Oberleichtersbach), Weissenbach: SCHNEIDER Detter: NICKEL Detter: KRAUS Note: SCHNEIDER may originate from Geroda. David F. Schmidt Walnut Creek, CA, USA dfschmidt(a)earthlink.net
Date: 1998/07/23 13:26:57
From: Clare L. Sallee <clareh(a)en.com>
Looking for anyone researching the surname PICKEL.
Clare L. Sallee Lowndes County Rootsweb Coordinator
http://www.rootsweb.com/~mslownde
In Every Family Tree, There's a Little Sap
http://www.en.com/users/clareh
Date: 1998/07/23 13:27:10
From: David F Schmidt <dfschmidt(a)earthlink.net>
My ancestors from UNTERFRANKEN (Lutheran religion)-- Detter, Schwarzen Haag (Oberleichtersbach), Weissenbach: SCHNEIDER Detter: NICKEL Detter: KRAUS Note: SCHNEIDER may originate from Geroda. David F. Schmidt Walnut Creek, CA, USA dfschmidt(a)earthlink.net
Date: 1998/07/23 22:13:31
From: Steve Jacob <jacobst(a)cafes.net>
I recently sent a .gif file which depicted a map of Bavaria to these mailing lists. Through some mysterious process, the file was transmogrified to gibberish before being forwarded to subscribers to these lists. I will be glad to send a copy of this map to anyone desiring one. Email me directly. Steve Jacob jacobst(a)cafes.net
Date: 1998/07/23 23:18:00
From: W. Fred Rump <fred(a)k2nesoft.com>
Also sprach Steve Jacob on 23 Jul 98, at 15:13 about Map of Bavaria: > I recently sent a .gif file which depicted a map of Bavaria to these > mailing lists. Through some mysterious process, the file was > transmogrified to gibberish before being forwarded to subscribers to these > lists. > > I will be glad to send a copy of this map to anyone desiring one. Email > me directly. > These lists are like most mailing lists - ASCII only. Binary files should be send after announcing same to individuals who request them. The above process is the correct one to use. Fred Fred Rump http://www.k2nesoft.com/~fred 26 Warren St http://www.pelicanlake.com Beverly, NJ 08010 fred(a)compu.com or 609-386-6846 fred(a)k2nesoft.com
Date: 1998/07/24 07:27:08
From: Joan Zeller <71163.573(a)compuserve.com>
Thanks for the Wake Up, Joe. It seems to have worked! Unterfranken Ancestors: Bad Brueckenau: GRUENEBAUM, ZELLER Geroda: FRANK Kleinbardorf: EBERT, KAHN Oberelsbach: FRANK, HAAS Oberleichtersbach: FRANK Schondra: FRANK Poppenlauer: JAKOB Roedelmaier: STERN Willmars: FRANK, GOLDSCHMIDT Joan Zeller Rochester, NY 14618 71163.573(a)compuserve.com
Date: 1998/07/24 07:27:35
From: Joan Zeller <71163.573(a)compuserve.com>
To David Schmidt: I may have FRANK ancestors from Geroda and Oberleichtersbach. Have you run across any records of this family? Joan Zeller Rochester, NY USA
Date: 1998/07/24 07:56:52
From: Jim Amaral <jamaral(a)columbus.rr.com>
Unterfranken Ancestors:
Modlos: Johann Georg Müller (same community as Shondra (where the priest lives) and Oberleichtersbach: (the church office) near Bad Bruckenau (where the village offices are!)Motten: Anna Margaretha Franceza Link (about 20-30 km away, has it's own priest, new in November, 97)
Joan! we were in this community in October! Three of these (at least) are served by one priest, (he has 5 churches and rotates thru them) records off premise in a man's home in Bad Bruckenau! (have address, he's a retired teacher & is now the local historian)
Joan Zeller wrote:
Thanks for the Wake Up, Joe. It seems to have worked!Unterfranken Ancestors:
Bad Brueckenau: GRUENEBAUM, ZELLER
Geroda: FRANK
Kleinbardorf: EBERT, KAHN
Oberelsbach: FRANK, HAAS
Oberleichtersbach: FRANK
Schondra: FRANK
Poppenlauer: JAKOB
Roedelmaier: STERN
Willmars: FRANK, GOLDSCHMIDT
Joan Zeller
Rochester, NY 14618
71163.573(a)compuserve.com
Date: 1998/07/24 15:40:11
From: Joseph Broom <broomjoe(a)email.msn.com>
Hi Joan, Can you tell me which Landkreis your villages are in or what cities they are close to so I can locate them on the map? By the way, are you familiar with the map at http://www.genealogy.com/gene/reg/BAY/BAY-REG1.gif ? It shows the boundaries of the various landkreis, not only in Franconia, but throughout Bavaria. I have received a number of replies to my "WAKE UP" message, as well as a message I placed on the Bavarian list. I will send out a message in a few days which summarizes the information I have received about various researchers working in various areas of Franconia. Let's keep this list going! By the way, do you have any information about the folk culture of Franconia? I have heard that it is substantially different from the stereotypical Bavarian image of beer gardens and lederhosen, etc. I am trying to learn what I can of the area. My own ancestors were from the Aschaffenburg-Kreis -- an area which was part of the Archbishopric of Mainz until the Treaty of Vienna in 1814 following the defeat of Napolean. Hoping to hear from you and others, Joe Broom Centerville, Utah
Date: 1998/07/24 15:55:03
From: Mchandler0 <Mchandler0(a)aol.com>
I am searching for the parents of Konrad Rudloff/Rudolf, born 1747 in Bergrheinfeld and his wife Maria Scheller, born 1755 in Oberpleichfeld. Any information would be appreciated. Peg
Date: 1998/07/24 16:41:47
From: David F Schmidt <dfschmidt(a)earthlink.net>
Joan Zeller wrote: > > To David Schmidt: > > I may have FRANK ancestors from Geroda and Oberleichtersbach. Have you run > across any records of this family? > > Joan Zeller > Rochester, NY USA Joan, No, I have not run across Frank. For ancestors from Geroda, there are two sources that I am aware of. One is a set of microfilmed records that are available through your local LDS (Mormon) Family History Center. They consist of a compilation of the Geroda church records prepared by someone named Bienm"uller in Germany. I don't have the film number handy, but you could get it by doing a computer IGI search (use filter for Bavaria) under "Bienmueller" and looking up the source code for those entries from Geroda. The second source is a book about Jewish life in Geroda and surrounding towns. The title can be found on the on-line catalog for U.C. Berkeley (http://www.melvyl.ucop.edu/). If I can locate further information about either of these, I will email it to you. David F. Schmidt Walnut Creek, CA dfschmidt(a)earthlink.net
Date: 1998/07/24 17:05:37
From: Jim Amaral <jamaral(a)columbus.rr.com>
Jim Amaral
Columbus, OH
Joseph Broom wrote:
Hi Joan,Can you tell me which Landkreis your villages are in or what cities they are
close to so I can locate them on the map? By the way, are you familiar with
the map at http://www.genealogy.com/gene/reg/BAY/BAY-REG1.gif ? It shows
the boundaries of the various landkreis, not only in Franconia, but
throughout Bavaria.I have received a number of replies to my "WAKE UP" message, as well as a
message I placed on the Bavarian list. I will send out a message in a few
days which summarizes the information I have received about various
researchers working in various areas of Franconia. Let's keep this list
going!By the way, do you have any information about the folk culture of Franconia?
I have heard that it is substantially different from the stereotypical
Bavarian image of beer gardens and lederhosen, etc. I am trying to learn
what I can of the area. My own ancestors were from the
Aschaffenburg-Kreis -- an area which was part of the Archbishopric of Mainz
until the Treaty of Vienna in 1814 following the defeat of Napolean.Hoping to hear from you and others,
Joe Broom
Centerville, Utah
Date: 1998/07/24 17:46:10
From: Joseph Broom <broomjoe(a)email.msn.com>
|
Hi Jim,
Where are your people from? Do you know how one would go
about looking into these Bild-Atlases?
By the way, I note you live in Columbus. My father and
step-mother live in Zanesville, and I will be visiting them in October.
Any Oktoberfest action around that time in German Village or elsewhere in the
area that you know of?
My Franconian ancestors were from primarily from the villages
of Grossostheim and Grunmorsbach near Aschaffenburg. They came over in
1852 and settled in St. Clair County, Illinois. My G-G-Grandmother, Anna
Maria Thekla Kehrer, was born in Belleville, but her father, Johann Adam Kehrer,
was from Grossostheim and her mother, Anna Maria Staab, was from Grunmorsbach
(near Bessenbach). Anna Maria Thekla married an immigrant from Baden, and
their daughter married a grandson of an immigrant from Ostfriesland, in the
northwest of Germany.
Joe Broom
|
Date: 1998/07/24 18:27:28
From: Bob & Mary Ann Pfennig <robertpf(a)freewwweb.com>
In answer to the ROLL CALL my wife's grandmother came from the area around Bad Windsheim in Mittelfranken. Here are names, dates and places: KILIAN - 1800-1850 - Weigenheim, Wiebelsheim HAMMERBACHER - 1650-1850 - Stoeckard Muehle, Ruppersdorf, Strassmuehle bei Neuhof KRAEUTLIN - 1700-1800 - Linden HECHT - 1700-1800 - Linden? WUEST 1700-1800 - Unternzenn Any info will be appreciate. Thanks in advance. Bob Pfennig in New Braunfels, TX wo das Leben ist schoen!
Date: 1998/07/25 06:15:36
From: Joan Zeller <71163.573(a)compuserve.com>
I have found this tool incredibly useful and easy.
Send an e-mail to this address: geo(a)genealogy.net
with the name of the town as the body of the message. You can send more
than one town per message; just put each on a separate line.
It will immediately respond with precise location of the town: longitude &
latitude, map gridlines, as well as political division info (landkreis,
etc.), population as of 1989, even license plate designation!
If you haven't used this service before send a message with the single
word INFO in the subject line for more details.
Happy hunting!
Joan Zeller
Rochester, NY
Date: 1998/07/25 06:15:42
From: Joan Zeller <71163.573(a)compuserve.com>
Hi Joe, The following towns are in the Kreis of Bad Kissingen (with the surnames I'm searching): Bad Brueckenau: ZELLER, GRUENEBAUM Geroda : FRANK Oberleichtersbach: GRUENEBAUM (not Frank, like I said previously) Schondra: FRANK Poppenlauer (Part of Massbach): JAKOB The following towns are in the Kreis of Rhoen-Grabfeld (Bad Neustadt): Kleinbardorf (Part of Sulzfeld): EBERT, KAHN Oberelsbach: FRANK, HAAS Roedelmaier: STERN Willmars: FRANK, GOLDSCHMIDT Thanks for the landkreis map website. I'll have to try it out. Meanwhile, do you know about Arthur Teschler's German town locator search engine? Address is geo(a)genealogy.net I'm sending a separate message to the mailing list with this info, since it's so useful. Again, thanks for your energy in keeping this mailing list alive! Joan Zeller
Date: 1998/07/25 06:15:45
From: Joan Zeller <71163.573(a)compuserve.com>
Hi David! Thanks for the info about Geroda sources. Since my family is Jewish, I naively only searched the LDS files for Jewish records, of which there are not many! (Though I hit paydirt with Zuentersbach.) I'm sure many of my family's records are embedded within the church records, so I do need to search them. By the way, I made a mistake listing my families. My connection to Oberleictersbach is not Frank, but GRUENEBAUM. Ring any bells? As for the book on Jewish life, could it be "Jewish Life in the Village Communities of Southern Germany" by Hugo Mandelbaum? If so I have a copy, and it is very good. My father, who was born in Stadt Brueckenau, said it described life exactly as he remembers it. If this is not the book you referred to, I'll have to check out the Berkely library. Joan Zeller
Date: 1998/07/25 06:15:46
From: Joan Zeller <71163.573(a)compuserve.com>
Thanks Jim for the addresses & information! Yes, I would appreciate any help with my trip, any advice. Whatever I can do or set up ahead of time will make it easier. I'll be going to the Bad Kissingen and Rhoen-Grabfeld Landkreise(n?), and to the archives in Wurzburg. (I'll also be going to Rheinland-Pfalz, Mainz area where my mother is from.) The whole purpose of my trip is to gather more information about my family, and to actually see the places "I" come from. I've been there twice before, with my parents who were born there, but that was before I was so interested in genealogy. This trip I'm going alone, so can stay in the cemeteries as long as I like! Your comments aabout the reactions to LDS microfilming are interesting. There was actually quite a controversy several years ago, when a number of Holocaust victims were baptized by some well meaning but misguided Mormans. The Jewish families were NOT HAPPY when they found their relatives had been baptized, and they had them officially "unbaptized." But if the LDS folks are willing to do all this work for me, that's just fine. I'm glad to hear they're microfilming in the area. Joan Zeller Rochester, NY USA
Date: 1998/07/25 06:16:00
From: Joan Zeller <71163.573(a)compuserve.com>
To Joe and Jim and others, I too am interested in the culture of this area. Since my family is Jewish, their culture was quite distinct from their gentile neighbors, but from comments my family has made, not as separate as it seems to have been in Eastern Europe. I am interested in hearing about all aspects of the local culture as it was, and in particular about the interactions of Jews and non-Jewish Germans throughout the generations. Although my family was quite observeant, they still considered themselves "good Germans" (after all, my grandfather fought in the first war) and believed Hitler's influence and policies would blow over. And they had gentile friends, *some* of whom stuck by them and helped them survive until they could leave Germany. (Unfortunately, they didn't all survive.) For a good description of Jewish life in Franconia, read "Jewish Life in the Village Communities of Southern Germany" by Hugo Mandelbaum, Feldheim Publishers. Joan Zeller
Date: 1998/07/25 14:29:59
From: Joseph Broom <broomjoe(a)email.msn.com>
>Your comments aabout the reactions to LDS microfilming are interesting. >I'm glad >to hear they're microfilming in the area. I hadn't heard that the LDS are microfilming in the area. Are they microfilming church records in Franken? That to me is a thrilling development; I have been able to search Baden records through LDS libraries, but not Bavarian/Franken records because they haven't been microfilmed. Joe Broom
Date: 1998/07/25 14:43:56
From: Joseph Broom <broomjoe(a)email.msn.com>
Hello Everybody,
Let's keep this ball rolling!
Does anyone have any Franconian URL's they can share. I have found two that
some of you may be aware of:
1. A FANTASTIC site on Landkreis Miltenberg:
http://news-verlag.de/zugaste/orte/index.html
I wish EVERY landkreis in Franken had a site like this.
2. A site on the village of Niedernberg on Main put together by a distant
relative, Tim Reinhart. Very well done with nice pictures:
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/niedernberg/
Joe Broom
Date: 1998/07/25 17:14:35
From: Joseph Broom <broomjoe(a)email.msn.com>
|
Sorry everybody,
The main URL for the Miltenberg Landkreis site is
|
Date: 1998/07/25 17:27:09
From: David F Schmidt <dfschmidt(a)earthlink.net>
Joan Zeller wrote: > > Hi David! > > Thanks for the info about Geroda sources. Since my family is Jewish, I > naively only searched the LDS files for Jewish records, of which there are > not many! (Though I hit paydirt with Zuentersbach.) I'm sure many of my > family's records are embedded within the church records, so I do need to > search them. > > By the way, I made a mistake listing my families. My connection to > Oberleictersbach is not Frank, but GRUENEBAUM. Ring any bells? > > As for the book on Jewish life, could it be "Jewish Life in the Village > Communities of Southern Germany" by Hugo Mandelbaum? If so I have a copy, > and it is very good. My father, who was born in Stadt Brueckenau, said it > described life exactly as he remembers it. If this is not the book you > referred to, I'll have to check out the Berkely library. > > Joan Zeller Joan, Yes, that is the exact book I was referring to. Glad to hear that you have seen it already. Gr"unbaum does not ring a bell with me. My Schneider family was Lutheran, and they lived in Detter and Weissenbach, located west of Geroda. In a church book entry from the 1730s, they are mentioned as living in Schwarzen Haag, which I am told is part of Oberleichtersbach. Judging from the names compiled by Bienm"uller from the Geroda church records (Lutheran), there were many Schneiders in Geroda. Since one Schneider from Geroda appears as a godparent in my family line, I have the idea that my Schneider family may have come from there originally. Interestingly enough, the Jewish families in Geroda also included Schneiders. However, as far as I know, my Schneider family was Lutheran, not Jewish. Thus, it is possible that there were Lutheran Schneiders and Jewish Schneiders living in Geroda at the same time. Since Bienm"uller did his compilation from the Lutheran church records, I can't guarantee that they would include entries pertaining to Jewish families. Nevertheless, since church records for Geroda, Zeitlofs, etc. have not been microfilmed by LDS and there is so little available for that area, I decided to mention the records compiled by Bienm"uller. David F. Schmidt Walnut Creek, CA dfschmidt(a)earthlink.net
Date: 1998/07/25 21:40:09
From: W. Fred Rump <fred(a)k2nesoft.com>
Also sprach Joan Zeller on 25 Jul 98, at 0:11 about Brueckenau area trip: > The Jewish families were NOT HAPPY when they found their relatives had > been baptized, and they had them officially "unbaptized." But if the LDS > folks are willing to do all this work for me, that's just fine. I'm glad > to hear they're microfilming in the area. Not to stir up any controversy but "IF" we accepted that the Mormons had the power to baptize people after they died we would be acknowledging their particular belief/religion to be supreme to all others, would we not? Wouldn't that make a mockery out of our own beliefs? On the other hand, if we know they really can't do that and have never claimed any such power we would simply be charging windmills on the horizon. Officially, the Mormons adhere to a belief that any soul may wish to be reunited (sealed) with their family but that each soul has the power to say no regardless of any happenings here on earth. As long as such is the case their efforts to photograph and store all the genealogical data of the world can only be commended. What they believe is really no more business of mine then what any other group of people believes - film or no film. Fred Fred Rump http://www.k2nesoft.com/~fred 26 Warren St http://www.pelicanlake.com Beverly, NJ 08010 fred(a)compu.com or 609-386-6846 fred(a)k2nesoft.com
Date: 1998/07/25 23:29:22
From: Joan Zeller <71163.573(a)compuserve.com>
Joe Broom wrote on 7/25:
>I hadn't heard that the LDS are microfilming in the area. Are they
>microfilming church records in Franken?
Jim Amaral wrote on 7/24:
>This community is just off the autobaun, between Fulda and Wurzburg. >The
records are being microfilmed by the church in Wursburg someday. >They were
still busy doing the larger communities when we visited the >archive. The
Kath. church in Wurzburg is violently oppossed to letting >the LDS church
even think about their records. ("we don't want our >people to be baptised
Mor->Monn; we want them to stay Kat-tolish")
Maybe I misinterpreted Jim's meaning. Jim?
Joan Zeller
Date: 1998/07/25 23:46:54
From: W. Fred Rump <fred(a)k2nesoft.com>
Hi, since some activity has recently been spurned on this list I might as well add my 2 cents worth while I'm updating to Win98 on another computer. :-) On my last trip to Germany I did a little research on my Prussian Feldjaeger from the Ansbacher Jaegers. Historically it should be known that the Margraviate of Ansbach-Bayreuth-Kulmbach was Hohenzollern land from way back. The last Grandmaster of the Teutonic Knights came from Ansbach and basically started the entire Prussian genealogical chain leading to the Kaiser of recent history. The saga of finding out just where Johann Friedrich Ludwig Ha"mmerer came from might be worth repeating here. I found his marriage to one Louise Frederike Kru"ger at Achelriede near Osnabrueck on Oct. 10, 1797. As these things go they did not mention a town where he came from but only that his commanding officer (a Major von Tu"mpling) had his papers and that he came from the Fu"rstentum Anbach. But where was another matter completely. I joined the Franken Familienforscherverein hoping that someone there could help. I bought many books, wrote to many experts and spent many, many hours digging through whatever I could find of the period. I got nowhere. I went to Germany to see for myself what could be done. I worked on his children. Johann was apparently discharged after he got his lady friend into trouble and had to get married. He then became a Ludimagister in Hilter. This occupation was basically a teacher, cantor, organist and general right hand aid to the pastor there. In a local history I found that one of his sons also became a cantor/teacher and that he served at a church in Melle. I went there and found out that the old man had moved there and had gotten married again and that his new wife had run away after a short few months of 'bliss'. There is much more to this story but the main point was that I found his death entry there and it told me that his father was a Verwalter (manager) in Schwabach and that his mother was a von Lentersheim. There was a place called Lentersheim in Franken and off we went. Lentersheim is a part of Ehingen but to us the sign on the road giving the name of an ancestor was already worth the trip. Lentersheim is part of the Landkreis of Ansbach in the Regierungsbezirk Mittelfranken not too far from Wassertru"dingen with a population of approximately 400. We blinked and had passed it. Not much to find here - not even a store. There was a mountain in the neighborhood though and we chose to drive up. 600 meters pretty much straight up. The Hesselberg is like a huge rock and on the top we found that this used to be where the Lentersheimers had their castle. The place was destroyed during the crusades and the owners simply moved on to Altenmuhr where they built new castles. On the way to Altenmuhr we stopped in the beautiful city of Schwabach and I bought more books. The city archives and library was sort of closed for the summer as the director gets 8 weeks of vacation and his replacement knew nothing about anything and hust sat there. I did find out that no Ha"mmerer had owned any property in the city itself. My assumption now was that he managed someone's estate in the Amt (district) of Schwabach. I've not yet established the physical boundaries of this district but one of these days I have to go back there anyway. In any case we went off to find Altenmuhr which is now a part of Muhr am See in Kreis Weissenburg-Gunzenhausen in Mittelfranken. We find the Johanniskirche there and all kinds of crests and things about the founders and sponsors of this church: the Lentersheimers. Things that go back to the 15th and 16th century sort of catch my attention if you can understand my feeling at that moment. :-) An epitaph from 1555 read: ANNO DOMINI 1555 VF SAMBSTAG AM TAG ANDRE APOSTOLI VERSCHID DER EDEL UND ERNFEST JORG WILHALM VON LENDERSHEIM ZV OBERSTAIMBACH AMPTMAN ZV VFFENHEIM DEM GOTT GENEDIG VND BARMHERCZIG SEIN WOL AMEN A description of the church in 1734 lists 60 such epitaphs on the floor and sides of the church going back to 1356. Because of reconstruction in 1911 and 1978 only about half remain. Still, this was quite a little find. Later research revealed that upon the death of the last von Lentersheim, the father of my g....grandmother, his crest in the church was turned upside down and the property of the family went to the the king of Bavaria via his newly aquired principality of Ansbach. He then sold it to the Prussian minister von Hardenberg who in turn sold it again. Today all that remains of the Lentersheim estate are the castles Schloss Neuenmuhr and Schloss Altenmuhr. I mention and explain all of this because I will have to get back to this line one of these days and I might as well continue my hope that someone else may also be working in the area. It seems that Freiherr Wilhelm Friedrich Gustav von Lentersheim was quite a philanderer perhaps because he kept trying to have a son. By the time he died in 1799 two legitimate daughters had married (von Eyb and von Reumont) but then there were the illegitimate ones and one of those was mine. Nothing seems to be known about her in any history. I have not been able to locate her birth. Several other such daughters have been found by the Rev. Gu"nther Niekel who wrote a history of Muhr. My only real proof of her existence and parentage is her son's death record. I had been suspicious all along as to later findings in the Ha"mmerer family. Marriage to nobility and many such people as witnesses in baptisms. Further the Kru"ger girl he married in Achelriede was from the Haus Uphausen which in turn was the estate of the von Brandenburg family. The girls father was Amtmann Krueger of the Stift Leeden. All people who were somebodys. An ordinary soldier might not have access to this class of people unless he had some nobility in his own heritage. So, any reference at all to a Ha"mmerer (anywhere) is almost surely a relation. Any von Lentersheim would also be. All from Mittelfranken and Protestant. Now if I could only find these folks. Fred PS Win98 is running by now Fred Rump http://www.k2nesoft.com/~fred 26 Warren St http://www.pelicanlake.com Beverly, NJ 08010 fred(a)compu.com or 609-386-6846 fred(a)k2nesoft.com
Date: 1998/07/26 01:00:47
From: W. Fred Rump <fred(a)k2nesoft.com>
if interested you might want to take a look at: http://www.druckhaus-bayreuth.de/nav/verlag.htm Fred Fred Rump http://www.k2nesoft.com/~fred 26 Warren St http://www.pelicanlake.com Beverly, NJ 08010 fred(a)compu.com or 609-386-6846 fred(a)k2nesoft.com
Date: 1998/07/26 13:16:32
From: Jim Amaral <jamaral(a)columbus.rr.com>
NO! I've been misquoted. The Catholic church of Wurzburg's archive said they would NOT allow the LDS to microfilm. They are doing it themselves. Starting over. They messed it up the first time. the quote was they Did NOT want their people to be baptised Mormon! Jim Amaral (and that the records would only be available locally! Joseph Broom wrote: > >Your comments aabout the reactions to LDS microfilming are interesting. > >I'm glad > >to hear they're microfilming in the area. > > I hadn't heard that the LDS are microfilming in the area. Are they > microfilming church records in Franken? That to me is a thrilling > development; I have been able to search Baden records through LDS libraries, > but not Bavarian/Franken records because they haven't been microfilmed. > > Joe Broom
Date: 1998/07/26 13:33:30
From: Jim Amaral <jamaral(a)columbus.rr.com>
Well ststed, but since I started this problem, not Joan, I will restate what I was told. I visited the archive at the DOM in Wurzburg. The priest at the archive ststed they (themselves) were re-starting the microfilming of their records. (they botched it the first try) I asked about the small villages I needed (Motten & Modlos) He said those records were still with the parish priest in Oberleichtersbach (which they aren't. they are in a private home in Bad Bruckenau, Herr Leonhard Rugel, they local historian) I mentioned "why not let the LDS copy them for you?" and he went into a hissy-fit about not wanting his people baptised "Moore-Mun" and then started on all the problems of not havinf enough priest, loosing too many church members, etc. There was not attempt to convince him otherwise. His philosophical beliefs was that the vicarious baptism of his church members must be binding, and that he wanted not part of it. Does that help straighten this mess out? 1) No LDS 2) church microfilm someday 3) not outside availability, unless they elect to have a website (very doubtful, the people I talked to were thrilled for me to show them how to turn on a Franklin German-English Bookman! W. Fred Rump wrote: > Also sprach Joan Zeller on 25 Jul 98, at 0:11 about Brueckenau area trip: > > > The Jewish families were NOT HAPPY when they found their relatives had > > been baptized, and they had them officially "unbaptized." But if the LDS > > folks are willing to do all this work for me, that's just fine. I'm glad > > to hear they're microfilming in the area. > > Not to stir up any controversy but "IF" we accepted that the Mormons had > the power to baptize people after they died we would be acknowledging > their particular belief/religion to be supreme to all others, would we not? > Wouldn't that make a mockery out of our own beliefs? On the other hand, if > we know they really can't do that and have never claimed any such power > we would simply be charging windmills on the horizon. > > Officially, the Mormons adhere to a belief that any soul may wish to be > reunited (sealed) with their family but that each soul has the power to say > no regardless of any happenings here on earth. As long as such is the > case their efforts to photograph and store all the genealogical data of the > world can only be commended. What they believe is really no more > business of mine then what any other group of people believes - film or no > film. > > Fred > > Fred Rump http://www.k2nesoft.com/~fred > 26 Warren St http://www.pelicanlake.com > Beverly, NJ 08010 fred(a)compu.com or > 609-386-6846 fred(a)k2nesoft.com
Date: 1998/07/26 14:01:23
From: Jim Amaral <jamaral(a)columbus.rr.com>
> <Well ststed> correction. should be WELL STATED! sorry,Jim Amaral ( I'm a lousy typist. But my photos make up for it.) Jim Amaral wrote: > Well ststed, but since I started this problem, not Joan, I will restate what I > was told.
Date: 1998/07/26 16:00:51
From: W. Fred Rump <fred(a)k2nesoft.com>
Also sprach Jim Amaral on 26 Jul 98, at 7:37 about Re: Brueckenau area trip: > and he went into a > hissy-fit about not wanting his people baptised "Moore-Mun" and then > started on all the problems of not havinf enough priest, loosing too many > church members, etc. I've run into this type of stupidity in several places in Germany. It simply makes me see red. I sometimes think that some people are still fighting the 30 Years War and won't permit any other beliefs except their own. Anything else needs to be banned, shunned or otherwise ignored. Somehow or other they've come to accept the Lutheran and the Catholic Churches but any other religion is nothing but a cult or sect and is suspect of wanting to steal their members. I speak German fluently and people don't know I'm from America so I get to hear their opinions of what those 'evil' Mormons from America are really up to. :-) The sad part is that these people claim to be educated and sit on the higher rungs of society as archivists and religious leaders. Sad! Fred Fred Rump http://www.k2nesoft.com/~fred 26 Warren St http://www.pelicanlake.com Beverly, NJ 08010 fred(a)compu.com or 609-386-6846 fred(a)k2nesoft.com
Date: 1998/07/26 16:00:53
From: W. Fred Rump <fred(a)k2nesoft.com>
Also sprach Jim Amaral on 26 Jul 98, at 7:37 about Re: Brueckenau area trip: I should add another comment. This is certainly not universal in any one Church. One can find neighboring RC dioceses or Lutheran Landeskirchen have completely different philosophies regarding filming of their records and who can see them. There are many places I deal with who permit filming by the LDS as long as no one in Europe will have access to these films in FHCs. They still want Europeans to come to their archive and pay for the privilege of taking a look. The films are plainly marked not for distribution in Europe. So, in many cases we have easier access to data from Europe in America. It's a strange world. Other religious entities place no restrictions at all upon who can see their data once it's filmed. It all depends on how free the thinking of the leaders is. Fred Fred Rump http://www.k2nesoft.com/~fred 26 Warren St http://www.pelicanlake.com Beverly, NJ 08010 fred(a)compu.com or 609-386-6846 fred(a)k2nesoft.com
Date: 1998/07/26 17:22:03
From: Jim Amaral <jamaral(a)columbus.rr.com>
Fred: you should get credit for knowing this! I didn't say it! You are correct. Note the situation of the Family History centers and Scotland. I have all the LDS CDs but that one. Their contract doesn't allow it to exist outside the FHCs! ( doesn't mean I didn't try! Even offered to use it all night and return it before they opened the next morning! They live by their contract!) I will admit, doing research in Germany was terribly inconsistant, bordering on rediculous at times, and bouncing off the extreme opposites at times. In Neunkirchen (Hannover) we had a minister offer to meet us at his house, 5pm, took us to his private office, where a pensioner had done family history pages from the Fraktur, cross-refferenced completely. We spent over an hour, with him Xerox-ing pages as quick as we could find them. From the LDS microfilms, that would have taken weeks. Wouldn't even take our money nuntil we convinced him it was a gift to the "missions." In Langensbold, the archive was only open two hours a day, 3 or 4 days a week, but they allowed us to take the original manuscripts, unsupervised, to an unused room across the hall, and then Xeroxed any thing we wanted, again free (but accepted a donation) In they area we were talking about with joan, we met the priest in Shondra. He didn't even have possession of the records. They were in someone's home, several villages away! go figure! By the way, our command of the German language is only slightly better than my Chinese (0). Don't let that stop anyone! If you are freindly, these people will try to exceed any efforts you put in! Our 4th trip, 3 weeks, and nothing short of wonderful. Hardest part was getting and returning the car, and I've had worse in this country. The germans were excellent hosts. Wish I could say they were treated as well here. Thanks again, Fred for your wonderful insights. Jim Amaral Columbus, Ohio. W. Fred Rump wrote: > Also sprach Jim Amaral on 26 Jul 98, at 7:37 about Re: Brueckenau area trip: > > I should add another comment. This is certainly not universal in any one > Church. One can find neighboring RC dioceses or Lutheran Landeskirchen > have completely different philosophies regarding filming of their records > and who can see them. There are many places I deal with who permit > filming by the LDS as long as no one in Europe will have access to these > films in FHCs. They still want Europeans to come to their archive and pay > for the privilege of taking a look. The films are plainly marked not for > distribution in Europe. > > So, in many cases we have easier access to data from Europe in > America. It's a strange world. > > Other religious entities place no restrictions at all upon who can see their > data once it's filmed. It all depends on how free the thinking of the leaders > is. > > Fred > > Fred Rump http://www.k2nesoft.com/~fred > 26 Warren St http://www.pelicanlake.com > Beverly, NJ 08010 fred(a)compu.com or > 609-386-6846 fred(a)k2nesoft.com
Date: 1998/07/26 19:23:40
From: Joan Zeller <71163.573(a)compuserve.com>
Hi Jim, What is a Franklin German-English Bookman, and where can I get one? Is it a hand held translator? Thanks. Joan Zeller (We sure have been busy lately!)
Date: 1998/07/26 21:04:29
From: Joseph Broom <broomjoe(a)email.msn.com>
Thank you, Jim, for your gracious comments concerning this matter and about the state of research in Germany. I enjoyed reading of your experiences. Just to add my two cents' worth to this conversation, it should be known (if it isn't already by list members) that just because the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS) microfilms records doesn't mean that the names of the people on the filmed records will be extracted and have temple work performed for them by proxy by the LDS. Anyone who has been to the LDS library in Salt Lake and seen the thousands and thousands of rolls of microfilm would quickly see that this is well nigh impossible. And anyone who has read a handwritten baptismal entry in old German script realizes the almost overwhelming challenge that would be faced in trying to decipher and extract even one parish by professionals trained in the language -- let alone volunteers who are not so trained. I wish the priest in Würtzburg could understand this. And understand how many people -- the overwhelming majority of whom are not LDS -- could benefit from microfilmed records. But obviously such is not to be, leaving us to share interesting experiences in how we manage to uncover records of our ancestors. :-) I am sure enjoying the activity on this list and hope to see it continue! Joe Broom broomjoe(a)email.msn.com
Date: 1998/07/26 21:13:58
From: Jim Amaral <jamaral(a)columbus.rr.com>
Franklin makes several hand held translators. Mine came from the J.C.Penney Outlet store. It was a Spainish-English, speaking version. I then went to their website, and ordered the german translator card for it. That brought me in at probably half-price! It has the largest dictionary I've seen on a hand-held, tho the german version doesn't speak. (too complex) Maybe you can talk my wife into loaning it to you for your trip, since she can't go back 'til she gets out of graduate school (second masters, MBA, twenty years apart!) Also suggested, small black-red-yellow plastic covered book, I think called Menu-master . Maybe 3x4". Latest version of Michlein's green guide. At least look at Rick Steve's guides. (library) and check out his TV series. Great show on Rothenburg ab Tauber. a real tourist trap, but really worth it. go to Map-Quest on the web and zoom in on your village, print throw away maps for your destinations. I took them into PageMaker and made pages with regional view, local view, name of immigrant from that town, what I knew, what I needed. Also did picture pages I could use to "trade" or whatever with relatives if I found any. You've gotten me real curious about your Jewish families in these towns! They are so remote it is hard to envision their being able to find a sense of community in their faith. Where were the closest synagogues? The villages you listed are (N-S) between Fulda, the "Rome of the North" and a major Dom in Wurzburg, and very rural. Bad Bruekenau is the only one big enough to afford a by-pass! Joan Zeller wrote: > Hi Jim, > > What is a Franklin German-English Bookman, and where can I get one? Is it > a hand held translator? > > Thanks. > > Joan Zeller > > (We sure have been busy lately!)
Date: 1998/07/26 21:42:55
From: Joan Zeller <71163.573(a)compuserve.com>
Jim and Fred: Thanks for the clarification of LDS filming. I had no idea filming of records was so "political," though I suppose I should have, given the story I related about the Jews. Sorry I misunderstood your original message, Jim, but it's opened up a fascinating discussion. And to everyone: I think we need to be openminded ourselves and not so readily condemn others' motives about refusing LDS microfilming. Things that seem clear and rational to us from afar can feel very different in another situation. I believe that people are naturally clear thinking and rational when they feel safe, and when a particular circumstance doesn't bring up old fears. Given the way Catholics were treated under the Nazi regime, and the fears of the priesthood and the fold dwindling, I can understand the perceived threat. It's true that some of the threats are generations old and may not be real today, but I believe fears can be transmitted culturally and quite subtley. And fear can cause irrational reactions. Even I, as a Jew who lost family in the Holocaust, hesititate to judge individual Germans during the Nazi period, because I can't honestly say how I would have reacted under similar circumstances. I'm not justifying these kinds of behaviors, nor am I saying that anger at these behaviors isn't appropriate. But I'm saying we need to look at the conditions and hurts that have caused the kinds of thinking and behaviors that, when we are thinking clearly and rationally, seem so obviously wrong. Understanding what motivates people can help open the discussion to changing attitudes. How many of us (rather than watching the news and thinking "that's too bad") have protested the racial killings in Bosnia and other places over the last few years? How many of us went to segregated swimming pools, restaurants, even bathrooms, as late as the 50's here in the US, without giving it much thought? It seemed NORMAL, given the culture we were raised in and the subtle messages we received growing up. I hope I'm not opening up another can of worms here - potentially good vs. evil! This is just a plea for some gentleness in judging others. Joan Zeller Rochester, NY
Date: 1998/07/27 10:57:43
From: Joan Zeller <71163.573(a)compuserve.com>
Thanks Jim! Your tips for my trip are very helpful. Keep them coming, please. I went right out and ordered myself a Franklin Bookman, as soon as I read your note! By coincidence, a friend brought over her Spanish Bookman last night, and after she left I was considering getting one. But I hadn't noticed what it was called or who made it, and by the time I realized that, she was off on a week's camping trip. What a coincidence that you should mention it that same night. (Thanks for the offer of Nancy's :-), but I probably wouldn't want to give it back. In fact, I could be using it right now, as I write letters to prepare for my trip. And as I have my "German lunches" with a woman at work, as we struggle to speak only German, also in preparation for my trip.) As far as the Jewish communities in the towns of my ancestors, believe it or not, most had their own synagogues (every one of which was destroyed on Krystallnacht, November 8-9, 1938). In 1925 Bru"ckenau's population was 5% Jewish (128 Jews out of a total 2515), Geroda's was 7% (49 Jews). Yes, the communities were quite small, but close knit. I don't have a sense for how isolated they felt. That's one of the things I'm interested in discovering. By the way, these statistics come from a series of articles "Die Juden in Bad Bru"ckenau" by Leonhard Rugel in "Quellenbla"tter" from 1983. I was quite pleased to realize this is the same person whose address you gave me, and I am in the process of writing to him. Joan
Date: 1998/07/27 10:57:48
From: Jim Amaral <jamaral(a)columbus.rr.com>
All good points, Joan. I will, however be the first to admit that when I'm sitting here at my keyboard, and am reacting to something I see on a computer screen, this false sense on being unknown, and the timeliness of instant messaging sometimes leads to comments that might not have been made if I'd thought them out more, or if we were all standing around talking. I can understand why some conferences have severe problems with "flaming"! A lot of it done in tease, but let's face it, most of what we call humor is only funny because we are laughing at ourselves. Like, here I sit in Ohio for the last 38 years, a Ga. boy doing deep south genealogy most of the time. Why, we didn't even rotate our crops, and I'm so southern I'm related to myself, etc. etc. The real point I see, however, has nothing to do with judging others, but everything to do with helping others avoid the pitfalls I've already experienced. This is like the concept of my computer user groups... People helping people. sometimes paybacks in advance for treats I'll recieve later, sometimes payimg my just dues for help I've already gotten. Now, for the rest of you! Wake up, chime in, lets solve these mysteries! Jim Amaral Columbus, Ohio Joan Zeller wrote: I hope I'm not opening up another can of worms here - potentially good vs.evil! This is just a plea for some gentleness in judging others. > Joan Zeller > Rochester, NY
Date: 1998/07/27 16:44:34
From: Jim Amaral <jamaral(a)columbus.rr.com>
Rugel speaks almost no English. His wife does speak some. He has not been quick in getting information to me, but his first installment solved a major family mystery (our guy had a half brother in Henry Co., OH & we didn't have a clue. Turns out our guy (Johan Geog Müller) was only son of 1st wife, about 9 others by 2nd wife, including the ancestor of Modlos' burgermeister. (we met him) What I said on the Franklin Bookman was J>C>Penney's Outlet store had a Speaking Spainish for about $29. then we went on the web to Franklin's site, ordered the replacement ram card to get German (maybe $24.95?) now we have both. We went to Modlos early in our trip (1st day) ended in B.Bruckenau, (no progress in Modlos, we found no one wanting to try our English, except one nice guy who took us to Burgermeister Walter Müller's house. no one home.) Went to BBruckenau, nearby town where the Modlos civic offices are. Met Müller in his office. Didn't speak English, but his assistant did. He didn't know his ancestry. Sent us to see Herr Rugel, local historian. He was pleasant, but couldn't find anything quickly. The reason this comes up is that 15 days later, we went to Wurzburg, where we were told how to find the priest.Next day, we were on his doorstep. We had a nice visit, but he didn't do English. We went to the Bookman. He jumped up and left the room. He came back with a box. Handed it to me and made a comment that resembled "Work it!" I took it out of the box, opened the battery cover, removed the battery plastic protector/activator, typed in "Hello"/convert and handed it to him. You'd of though it was the second coming of the saviour. Turns out he was to holiday the next month in Malta, where they spoke only English, and he wanted to practice. Then we made progress. He said he would give our data to an Herr Rugel. (that name again) and that Rugel would contact us. Asked we leave 20 DM for Rugel, that would be enough. When we got back to Columbus, there was the history of the Müller family's next generation back (the one we needed) with a bill for the equiv. of 30 DM. No mention of the priest; no progress on our Link family of Motten. That was 9 months ago, our money was dispatched immediately, still no response beyond the first mailing! Joan Zeller wrote: > Thanks Jim! > > Your tips for my trip are very helpful. Keep them coming, please. > > I went right out and ordered myself a Franklin Bookman, as soon as I read > your note! By coincidence, a friend brought over her Spanish Bookman last > night, and after she left I was considering getting one. But I hadn't > noticed what it was called or who made it, and by the time I realized that, > she was off on a week's camping trip. What a coincidence that you should > mention it that same night. (Thanks for the offer of Nancy's :-), but I > probably wouldn't want to give it back. In fact, I could be using it right > now, as I write letters to prepare for my trip. And as I have my "German > lunches" with a woman at work, as we struggle to speak only German, also in > preparation for my trip.) > > As far as the Jewish communities in the towns of my ancestors, believe it > or not, most had their own synagogues (every one of which was destroyed on > Krystallnacht, November 8-9, 1938). In 1925 Bru"ckenau's population was 5% > Jewish (128 Jews out of a total 2515), Geroda's was 7% (49 Jews). Yes, the > communities were quite small, but close knit. I don't have a sense for how > isolated they felt. That's one of the things I'm interested in > discovering. By the way, these statistics come from a series of articles > "Die Juden in Bad Bru"ckenau" by Leonhard Rugel in "Quellenbla"tter" from > 1983. I was quite pleased to realize this is the same person whose address > you gave me, and I am in the process of writing to him. > > Joan
Date: 1998/07/28 05:15:07
From: Joan Zeller <71163.573(a)compuserve.com>
Interesting experiences, Jim. We'll see if I have any luck with Herr Rugel. First I have to finish writing my letter to him, then have my father translate it, possibly a week long process. But maybe he'll have some info for me when I get there. He must have access to the info, becuase my family is mentioned quite often in his "Juden in Bad Bru"ckenau" articles. My Franklin Bookman story: There's some bug in my Netscape program at the moment and I haven't been able to access the web from home. So I ran out to Radio Shack and ordered the German English Bookman for a total of $83.15 including shipping and tax, because I was too impatient to wait. Today from the computer at work, I found the Franklin site (www.franklin.com) and found I could order it for $67.90. But it was too late to cancel my Radio Shack order, and even though I can return it when it comes in, I'll still have to pay the shipping fee. Hardly worth it to switch at this point. But the moral for all the rest of you folks is: order it directly! (They also have a toll free number that you can order through.) Joan
Date: 1998/07/28 08:35:52
From: Mueller Lothar <Lothar.Mueller(a)nbgm.siemens.de>
Hallo, Vorab: Bitte entschuldigen Sie, daß ich meine Mail in Deutsch schreibe, meine Englischkenntnisse reichen gerade noch zum Lesen von irgendwelchen Texten. Ich bin auf der Suche nach zusätzlichen Daten über eine meiner Vorfahrinnen: Ihr Name ist Barbara MÜLLER, * um 1828, + nach 1877. Sie hatte zwei Söhne, die 1853 und 1858 in Honzrath (Kreis Merzig, Saarland) geboren wurden. Von ihr ist noch bekannt, daß sie als Tagelöhnerin in Saarlouis gearbeitet hat und sich 1877 in Luxemburg aufgehalten hat. Ihre Eltern waren Nikolaus MÜLLER und Anna Catharina ROTH. Wer hat eventuell zusätzliche Informationen über Barbara MÜLLER? Insbesondere ihre Sterbedaten würden mich sehr interessieren. Ich bin für jeden Hinweis dankbar. Viele Grüße Lothar Müller mailto:Lothar.Mueller(a)nbgm.siemens.de
Date: 1998/07/28 14:45:58
From: Joseph Broom <broomjoe(a)email.msn.com>
For those of you who hadn't already found it, there is a GREAT German folk song site at http://ingeb.org (also hymns and folk songs from other countries) I'm sure we'd all be interested if anyone has any stories they could share in respect of any of these songs, e.g., lullabies, love-songs, other songs that have/had a special meaning to them or their ancestors. Joe Broom broomjoe(a)email.msn.com
Date: 1998/07/28 14:58:44
From: Joseph Broom <broomjoe(a)email.msn.com>
Lothar, Kennen Sie in dem Übersetzungsdienst an aus http://babelfish.altavista.digital.com/cgi-bin/translate? Es tut kurze Übersetzungen für Sie. Joe Broom broomjoe(a)email.msn.com
Date: 1998/07/29 04:22:21
From: W. Fred Rump <fred(a)k2nesoft.com>
Also sprach Joseph Broom on 28 Jul 98, at 6:40 about German Folk Song Site: > For those of you who hadn't already found it, there is a GREAT German folk > song site at > > http://ingeb.org (also hymns and folk songs from other countries) > > I'm sure we'd all be interested if anyone has any stories they could share > in respect of any of these songs, e.g., lullabies, love-songs, other songs > that have/had a special meaning to them or their ancestors. Joe, this is truly a great place to set in my bookmarks. I''m sitting here with moist eyes as I hear "Ës waren zwei Königskinder". My sister spent many, many hours trying to teach me to sing this song with her in harmony. She died in her early 40s quite unexpectedly and I still miss her very much. I remember even as I was older trying to master my part with her. She could sing and hold any part assigned to her while I just bumbled along always getting sidetracked and loosing my melody. Folksongs of our childhood are particularly cultural. I feel that children today just don't have that in their background to remember later. Even in Germany this is no longer how it used to be. People and families used to have time to sit and sing and tell stories. TV has killed all of that. On my recent cross country trip I spent two days in Herrman, MO. There is a historical society there and they try to keep the old German Schulhaus where many generations of the children of the founders of the town learned their ABCs and German cuture. This was the public school of the town. I was totally captivated by the place because of what they were trying to preserve. We bought tapes by local bands and singing groups of songs which were quite old but also still new as they are still sung today. It kind of blew me away to see what parents and grandparents can pass down from generation to generation. In the school there was a room set up to look a little like an old long ago school room with all kinds of items contributed by the townspeople. My wife instantly started singing "Wollt ihr wissen, wollt ihr wissen wie's die kleinen Mädchen machen. Püppchen wiegen, Püppchen wiegen, alles dreht sich herum." (It's also on that site) Why? Because someone had drawn some pictures from an old text book in chalk upon the blackboard. There was the story of what little girls do when they play with dolls. The caretaker lady had no idea as to the origin of those drawings on the blackboard but my wife instantly was transported back to her childhood just from those three sketches each signifying a stanza from the song. Like I said, it was quite moving to be transported back in time to one's childhood in Germany here in America. Fred Fred Rump http://www.k2nesoft.com/~fred 26 Warren St http://www.pelicanlake.com Beverly, NJ 08010 fred(a)compu.com or 609-386-6846 fred(a)k2nesoft.com
Date: 1998/07/29 17:01:46
From: Bill Ruff <ruffbj(a)juno.com>
Franken ancestors include: RUFF; SCHMITT - Eichenb"uhl, near Miltenberg, Unterfranken, Bayern RUFF - Riedern, near Eichenb"uhl NEUBERGER - Reinhardsachsen, near Eichenb"uhl KIRCHGASSNER - Kaltenbrunn, near Eichenb"uhl TAUBERSCHMITT - possible Kaltenbrunn * A response to Bill Allen: The town of origin in Germany is vital - none of the many civil/gov't records I turned up gave it, but a Catholic church record from 1855 of one baptism in NYC gave me the towns for both father and mother, and the mothers maiden name! The other church records for 3 of the 6 children did not give any town, so results can vary. My advice is to press harder on early church records here. _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]