Monatsdigest

hannover-l-request(a)genealogy.net wrote:
However, the contemporary Australian WEDEMEYERs 
in our family all now use the usual German 
pronunciation of  "meyer" as in "mire".

Sometimes contemporary speakers pronounce their name a certain way in 
order for others to spell it correctly.  For example, my maiden name is 
Mueller (umlaut u, of course).  Many families pronounce it as Miller, 
and everyone in the community knows to spell it Mueller.
In our community, though, we had families whose names were Miller, 
Muller and Mueller.  In order for our name to be spelled correctly by 
those who heard it, we pronounced it Mueller, as in Mule - er.
In the other thread:

My mother who learned German in the US from her parents and grandparents 
who were from east of the Oder, could not understand the speech of her 
in-laws, who were from the Hannover area.
--
Mona Houser
HeritageHunt(a)sandyview.info
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~monajo/

Hallo HeideB,

...English, by the way, is a Germanic language. 

das ist so ziemlich das neueste, was ich höre. Wenn ich mir den modernen 
englischen Wortschatz so ansehe, dann finde ich zwar einen Haufen Wörter 
mit Entsprechungen in diversen "germanischen" Sprachen, aber wenn man 
genau hinsieht, strotzt die Sprache nur so von Romanismen und hat fast 
mehr sprachliche Entsprechungen mit Französisch und anderen romanischen 
Sprachen. Schau doch mal genau hin - nimm einen beliebigen längeren Text 
aus Buch oder Zeitung und schreib an jedes Wort entweder ein G oder R. 
Wetten, dass die Zahl der R's überwiegt?
(In der Hoffnung, dass du dich mit dem Vornamen Heide und Heimatstadt 
Hannover als "native German speaker" offenbart  (neu"deutsch": geautet) 
hast)
Freundliche Grüße
Nikolaus (Ordemann)
--
    The Ordemann/Ordeman Genealogy / Ordemanns Genealogi
 Ordemann-Genealogie : http://privat.genealogy.net/ordemann
For more data see / For mer angivelser se på / Mehr Daten in
   http://gedbas.genealogy.net  http://wiki.genealogy.net
   http://www.geneanet.org      http://www.gencircles.com
      http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com (db=ordemann)

Hi Joanna!

If some words are not readable for you, there is a link to a place, where the words are translated, not very helpful. Send me a scan and I'll try!

Much success and kind regards from Germany, the land of the old and new women soccer world champions! ;-))

Klaus (Stahl)

> I'm translation a christening, a wedding and a death, and most of it is 
> possible to find out, but some of the words are not readable, 
> because it looks different from what I would expect to find there.

Hello on the list!
You are all so fast and helpful! Thank you!
Thanks to Helga and Christine for the links to Family Search. I know Family 
Search quite well, but I have never used these pages!

I will try them tonight.
And to Klaus from Hamburg-Altona - it brings memories from my past, when I 
was working

at the Faaborg-Gelting Ferrie's office........ Yes I'm living in Denmark.

Thank you for telling me about the book of Edna M. Bentz. I will ask my 
library to find it for me.
To all of you: Now I know what to do the next coupple of days!!
THANK YOU SO MUCH!
Regards
Jonna

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <hannover-l-request(a)genealogy.net>

To: <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>

Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 12:01 PM

Subject: Hannover-L Nachrichtensammlung, Band 47, Eintrag 1

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Meldungen des Tages:
  1. Old German words (Jonna Kvist)
  2. Re: Old German words (Helga Schulte-Paßlack)
  3. Re: Hannover-L Nachrichtensammlung, Band 46, Eintrag 30]
     (Houser40(a)brick.net)
  4. Re: Old German words (Christine Cunningham)
  5. Re: Old German words (Klaus Vahlbruch)
  6. Re: Y Umlaut: Pronunciations handed down (Nikolaus Ordemann)

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 15:40:32 +0200
From: "Jonna Kvist" <jokrimi(a)stofanet.dk>
Subject: [HN] Old German words
To: <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
Message-ID: <005001c80367$79208bb0$b8cb6b3e(a)jonnacfa4e6207>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Hello people on this very fine list!
Can anyone please help me to find a link to a place,

where I can have old German christening-, wedding- and burial words 
translated?
I'm translation a christening, a wedding and a death, and most of it is
possible to find out, but some of the words are not readable,
because it looks different from what I would expect to find there.
I guess, there must be some translation possibilities somewhere,
but so far I didn't find any.
Regards
Jonna Kvist

------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 15:45:57 +0200
From: Helga Schulte-Paßlack <genealogie(a)helgasp.eu>
Subject: Re: [HN] Old German words
To: Hannover-L <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
Message-ID: <46FFA895.3060402(a)helgasp.eu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15; format=flowed
To Jonna,

Can anyone please help me to find a link to a place,

where I can have old German christening-, wedding- and burial words 
translated?
Have a look at
http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Search/RG/guide/WLGerman1.asp
Regards
Helga (Schulte-Paßlack)

------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 09:15:32 -0500
From: "Houser40(a)brick.net" <Houser40(a)brick.net>
Subject: Re: [HN] Hannover-L Nachrichtensammlung, Band 46, Eintrag 30]
To: "hannover-l(a)genealogy.net >> Hannover-L"
<hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
Message-ID: <46FFAF84.30104(a)brick.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
hannover-l-request(a)genealogy.net wrote:
However, the contemporary Australian WEDEMEYERs
in our family all now use the usual German
pronunciation of  "meyer" as in "mire".

Sometimes contemporary speakers pronounce their name a certain way in
order for others to spell it correctly.  For example, my maiden name is
Mueller (umlaut u, of course).  Many families pronounce it as Miller,
and everyone in the community knows to spell it Mueller.
In our community, though, we had families whose names were Miller,
Muller and Mueller.  In order for our name to be spelled correctly by
those who heard it, we pronounced it Mueller, as in Mule - er.
In the other thread:
My mother who learned German in the US from her parents and grandparents
who were from east of the Oder, could not understand the speech of her
in-laws, who were from the Hannover area.
--
Mona
Houser40(a)brick.net
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~monajo/

------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 08:52:10 -0700 (PDT)
From: Christine Cunningham <photoshadows(a)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [HN] Old German words
To: Hannover-L <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
Message-ID: <8622.88863.qm(a)web31511.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
A great place for the translation of many German genealocical terms can be 
found on the Family History Library's website at: www.familysearch.org. Once 
there, go to Research Helps and you should find a link to German words. 
There is also help with Old German script and pretty much any 
genealogy-related topic you can imagine. There are a number of books around 
that may help as well.
 -Christine
Jonna Kvist <jokrimi(a)stofanet.dk> wrote:
 Hello people on this very fine list!
Can anyone please help me to find a link to a place,

where I can have old German christening-, wedding- and burial words 
translated?
I'm translation a christening, a wedding and a death, and most of it is
possible to find out, but some of the words are not readable,
because it looks different from what I would expect to find there.
I guess, there must be some translation possibilities somewhere,
but so far I didn't find any.
Regards
Jonna Kvist
______________________________________________
Hannover-L mailing list
Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l

---------------------------------
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Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online.
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 17:58:45 +0200
From: Klaus Vahlbruch <klaus-vahlbruch(a)gmx.de>
Subject: Re: [HN] Old German words
To: Hannover-L <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
Message-ID: <46FFC7B5.8020501(a)gmx.de>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15; format=flowed
Helga Schulte-Paßlack schrieb:

To Jonna,

Can anyone please help me to find a link to a place,

where I can have old German christening-, wedding- and burial words 
translated?
Have a look at
http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Search/RG/guide/WLGerman1.asp
Regards
Helga (Schulte-Paßlack)
**************************************************************
Hallo Jonna,
I don?t know where you are living but it seems to me it is Danmark (.dk)
There is a book printet in USA
Title:
--------------------------------
If I can - you can
Decipher Germanic Record
written b edna M Bentz
ISBN 0-9615420-0-4
--------------------------------
delivered by Tamara J. Bents
9150-187 Gramercy Drive
San Diego, CA 92123-4001
<tjbentzprodigy.net>
Unfortshnitly it is written in 1982 (Twenty-Fifth Printing 2002)
I tried to came into contakt with her but I never get any answer.
Anyway, this book has 87 pages and it is filled up wich
words and explanations in
LATIN - ENGLISH - GERMAN SCRIPT (handwriting) - DANISH
mater - mother  - ..... no caracter this e-mail - mor, moder
obstetrix-midwife-..... no caracter this e-mail-jordmor fødselshjelper
etc.
Perhaps there is anybody in the List who knows more about
Edna M. Bentz and how to get a copy.
You may ask for a word and I?ll send a scan to you
of this paticular page.
Klaus (Vahlbruch) Hamburg-Altona in Germany

------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2007 10:48:10 +0200
From: Nikolaus Ordemann <n.ordemann(a)infocity.de>
Subject: Re: [HN] Y Umlaut: Pronunciations handed down
To: Hannover-L <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
Message-ID: <4700B44A.7080206(a)infocity.de>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Hallo HeideB,

...English, by the way, is a Germanic language.

das ist so ziemlich das neueste, was ich höre. Wenn ich mir den modernen
englischen Wortschatz so ansehe, dann finde ich zwar einen Haufen Wörter
mit Entsprechungen in diversen "germanischen" Sprachen, aber wenn man
genau hinsieht, strotzt die Sprache nur so von Romanismen und hat fast
mehr sprachliche Entsprechungen mit Französisch und anderen romanischen
Sprachen. Schau doch mal genau hin - nimm einen beliebigen längeren Text
aus Buch oder Zeitung und schreib an jedes Wort entweder ein G oder R.
Wetten, dass die Zahl der R's überwiegt?
(In der Hoffnung, dass du dich mit dem Vornamen Heide und Heimatstadt
Hannover als "native German speaker" offenbart  (neu"deutsch": geautet)
hast)
Freundliche Grüße
Nikolaus (Ordemann)
--
    The Ordemann/Ordeman Genealogy / Ordemanns Genealogi
 Ordemann-Genealogie : http://privat.genealogy.net/ordemann
For more data see / For mer angivelser se på / Mehr Daten in
   http://gedbas.genealogy.net  http://wiki.genealogy.net
   http://www.geneanet.org      http://www.gencircles.com
      http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com (db=ordemann)

------------------------------
_______________________________________________
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Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l

Ende Hannover-L Nachrichtensammlung, Band 47, Eintrag 1
*******************************************************
Jonna Kvist schrieb:

Hello on the list!
...

And to Klaus from Hamburg-Altona - it brings memories from my past, when I 
was working

at the Faaborg-Gelting Ferrie's office........ Yes I'm living in Denmark.

Thank you for telling me about the book of Edna M. Bentz. I will ask my 
library to find it for me.
To all of you: Now I know what to do the next coupple of days!!
THANK YOU SO MUCH!
Regards
Jonna

*****************************************************************
Hello Jonna,
I think your library wouldn?t find it.
Try the other way:
Give me a unknwon word and I?ll give you a scan of this page.
Than you may imagine why I think the Library won?d find it.
Klaus

Anbei ein Hinweis auf eine Neuerscheinung
zum alten Amt Bleckede an der Elbe für die
Liste.

Beste Grüße
H-C.Sarnighausen(a)t-online.de
Röntgenstr. 56
21335 Lüneburg

Hi Mona
that only may be when they speak low German (Plattdeutsch)
there are different dialects between the different parts of Germany.
High German will be understand everywhere in Germany.
I hope it wii be clear now.
Regards
Bernd
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mona" <HeritageHunt(a)Sandyview.info>

To: <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>

Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2007 3:53 PM

Subject: Re: [HN] Hannover-L Nachrichtensammlung, Band 46, Eintrag 30
hannover-l-request(a)genealogy.net wrote:
However, the contemporary Australian WEDEMEYERs 
in our family all now use the usual German 
pronunciation of  "meyer" as in "mire".

Sometimes contemporary speakers pronounce their name a certain way in 
order for others to spell it correctly.  For example, my maiden name is 
Mueller (umlaut u, of course).  Many families pronounce it as Miller, 
and everyone in the community knows to spell it Mueller.
In our community, though, we had families whose names were Miller, 
Muller and Mueller.  In order for our name to be spelled correctly by 
those who heard it, we pronounced it Mueller, as in Mule - er.
In the other thread:

My mother who learned German in the US from her parents and grandparents 
who were from east of the Oder, could not understand the speech of her 
in-laws, who were from the Hannover area.
--
Mona Houser
HeritageHunt(a)sandyview.info
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~monajo/
______________________________________________
Hannover-L mailing list
Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l

--
Ich verwende die kostenlose Version von SPAMfighter für private Anwender,
die bei mir bis jetzt 2330 Spammails entfernt hat.
Bezahlende Anwender haben diesen Hinweis nicht in ihren E-Mails.
Laden Sie SPAMfighter kostenlos herunter: http://www.spamfighter.com/lde
Hello everybody,
Gale is right:

1.  My family comes from the KOH halfway between Hanover 
and Bremen.  My father could cary on a conversation with 
his Danish brother-in-law, but had difficulty talking to 
his German brother-in-law from further south in Germany.

Another example:
The regional dialects don't change much (except for new words), being 
still very strong. So is the accent, even in "textbook German". In the 
sixties, we lived in a village in Baden, and downstairs was a young 
family from Lübeck. When the town crier made an announcement, reading a 
text typed in standard German, the young lady would come to my mother to 
have it translated. His accent was too strong for easy understanding.
However, I believe that umlauts were used for specific 
purposes, like underlining.  You don't do it without a 
reason.

Right again. The umlaut dots on vowels DO change the sound: "a" like in 
English "half" becomes "ä" rather like the sound in English "where", o 
and u change too. The Roman alphabet does not contain these dotted 
vowels, they are rendered by the writing ae, oe, ue. At the end of 
mediaeval times the e became tiny and went to sit on top of the vowels, 
there are many handwritten and printed examples. In (handwritten) Gothic 
script the e is rather elaborate, so the writers replaced it by two 
downstrokes ( " )which eventually became dots ( ¨ )in modern machine 
script. German children still learn to write two downstrokes.
But the dots on the y don't change anything. Meyer or Meÿer is 
pronounced exactly the same. Those dots DON'T mean an umlaut here.

My own Meyer ancestors are written indifferently, and at the same 
period, Meier, Meyer, Maÿer. One explanation is that you can't take the 
i or y separately. In this combination these letters form, together with 
the preceding e, a "diphtong", literrally a "double" sound. While you 
produce it, you change the position of the tongue in your mouth, moving 
it closer to the roof . You really produce two sounds following each 
other closely (try this by pronouncing "hi, bye, why, pile"), the second 
sound being close to  the sound produced in German "jetzt" or English 
"yet" (both words having the same ethymological origin).

The y was introduced in the alphabet at a time when j did not yet exist 
as a letter. The Dutch wrote y where they now write ij. The use of y 
after e became a habit to state clearly the diphthong sound. The dots 
(real round dots, not downstrokes!) on the y were introduced to avoid 
confusion with the Greek y (Epsilon, in German Ypsilon) which the 
Germans pronounce like ü. People forgot about the difference between 
downstrokes and dots, and used one or the other on the y, up to the end 
of the 19th century. I found my great-grandfather Maria Heinrich August 
"Maÿer" with two downstrokes.

Real dots are used for other purposes, too. The town of Soest (with a 
long o) is sometimes written Soëst: this states the fact that there is 
NO umlaut sound ö there. The French use dots to separate o from a 
following e like in Noël (No-el), different from soeur pronounced like 
English "sir".
Philip at first misunderstood my original message:

Colette has re-stated the conventional view, 
which relegates _ÿ_ to a scriptal flourish.

So the dots on the Y are NOT an umlaut sign (German 
"umlauten" meaning

"change a (vowel)sound"). Wedemeÿr or Wedemeyer are 
pronounced exactly

alike. The e following the y doesn't change the 
pronounciation.

I wrote to him directly, since I didn't want to annoy the list with very 
long explanations. Only  I saw today that  people seem still interested: 
hence this lengthy contribution.
Best wishes from
Colette
(German having studied linguistics)
www.llorca.ovh.org
http://gw.geneanet.org/cwelcker
Where is Plattdeutsch spoken?
Is it something Regional?  
Spoken the low-lying areas near the sea, perhaps?

Or did it indicate one's social or economic "class" in Germany?  

Is it still spoken in Germany?

Maureen
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  that only may be when they speak low German (Plattdeutsch)
  there are different dialects between the different parts of Germany.

I hope you all have had a good summer. I have been  working on Rosseburg, Schlicht, Koopman,Bruns,Michel, Ahrens, Meyer Of Oldendorf.
 Sueschendorf= Reinecke, Schroder. etc.
 I am recording all names that I have into Family treemaker for easy look ups and possible sharing. Many names from my villages and areas. Whether related or not.!

I am so grateful for the OFB Himbergen book. I was able to find more on those who had connections to Torwe, Gross thondorf, Westersunderburg, Klein Thondorf, Romstedt, Ratzlingen, Weste, Strothe, Stoetze,Boecke, Kettelstorf, and a few others. Werner, Warnecke,Harms, Meyer. Koopman Rosseburg. etc Reinke.
I have not found village of Boetze yet. Yesterday found Stoetze mentioned on line. [smile]

I keep seeing the name Korn with the back ground of this:
 #2542
Carl Bernhard Korn *30.10. 1787 [err.]  Gronau in Hildesheimischen- +19.10.1758 Gross Thondorf
He married before 1814. He lived  wohnort 1819 at Gross thondorf. He is a r.-Kath.
His first wife Elisabeth Culemann * 1778 [err] Ahrenstedt amt. Windenstedt im Hildesheimischen.)5.6.18.31. Gross Thondorf.

I tryed to google for  Windenstedt did not get anything. I belive this must be the area of Hildescheim. Perhaps I should try Winden or Windenstadt. I shall google Hildescheim map  and get familiar. Ahrendstedt results so far show Schw. Holstein. 

I am debating about purchasing the book for Hildesheim area written by Heinrich Porth.

Could any one take a peek and see if there are many more in this tree?
When I had someone look before I got so greedy about how many that were there,I decided to purchase the book. As I mentioned before it was a very good idea. [smile] Perhaps there is more on Culeman too. I do not know.

 I am not sure how to research roman katholic people.

Would the Radenbeck of the Thomasburg church be in the same book. there were a few References in the Himbergen book to that village. None of my Meyer mentioned. I think Radenbeck is in the political area of Altenmedengen. I hope i spelled that correct.

I look forward to any help or attention you may give my little problems.
Thank You all for your attention.
Jo Meyer''''''Wi.MN, Iowa

_________________________________________________________________
Discover the new Windows Vista
http://search.msn.com/results.aspx?q=windows+vista&mkt=en-US&form=QBRE
Plattdeutsch is no longer spoken.  Heide
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Maureen" <mcshelly2(a)msn.com>
To: "Hannover-L" <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 12:18 PM
Subject: [HN] PLATTDEUTSCH

Where is Plattdeutsch spoken?
Is it something Regional?  
Spoken the low-lying areas near the sea, perhaps?

Or did it indicate one's social or economic "class" in Germany?  

Is it still spoken in Germany?

Maureen
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  that only may be when they speak low German (Plattdeutsch)
  there are different dialects between the different parts of Germany.
______________________________________________

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"HeideB" <heideb(a)uneedspeed.net> schrieb:
> Plattdeutsch is no longer spoken.  Heide

Are you sure?
Wilfried

Auf der Uni in New York State have ich einen Kursus nehmen muessen das war
Phonics.  Ich weiss jetzt nicht ob dieses in Deutsch schreiben kann.  In dem
Kursus haben wir die Toene der Sprache von Anfang an, also, tausende von
Jahren zurueck.  Ich weiss nicht mehr alles aber Englisch, Deutsch gehoerten
zu den Germanischen Sprachen.  Italian, Spanisch, French gehoerten zu den
Romance Sprache.  Jede Sprache aendert sich ueber die Jahre.  Mein Deutsch
ist in 1953 stehen geblieben.  Ich merke jetzt wie komisch das Leuten
vorkommt wenn ich Deutsch spreche.  Meine Mutter und ich haben Deutsch
gesprochen aber ansonsten hatte ich wenig Deutschen Umgang. So mein Deutsch
ist stehen geblieben. Das Franzoesisch ist dazu gekommen unter einen der
Koenige, und ich weiss nicht mehr welchen.  Von dem sind die schoenen
Gaerten gekommen, Manieren, usw.  Aber das kam viel spaeter.  Heide
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Nikolaus Ordemann" <n.ordemann(a)infocity.de>
To: "Hannover-L" <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 1:48 AM
Subject: Re: [HN] Y Umlaut: Pronunciations handed down

Hallo HeideB,
> ...English, by the way, is a Germanic language.
das ist so ziemlich das neueste, was ich höre. Wenn ich mir den modernen
englischen Wortschatz so ansehe, dann finde ich zwar einen Haufen Wörter
mit Entsprechungen in diversen "germanischen" Sprachen, aber wenn man
genau hinsieht, strotzt die Sprache nur so von Romanismen und hat fast
mehr sprachliche Entsprechungen mit Französisch und anderen romanischen
Sprachen. Schau doch mal genau hin - nimm einen beliebigen längeren Text
aus Buch oder Zeitung und schreib an jedes Wort entweder ein G oder R.
Wetten, dass die Zahl der R's überwiegt?

(In der Hoffnung, dass du dich mit dem Vornamen Heide und Heimatstadt
Hannover als "native German speaker" offenbart  (neu"deutsch": geautet)
hast)

Freundliche Grüße

Nikolaus (Ordemann)
-- 
     The Ordemann/Ordeman Genealogy / Ordemanns Genealogi
  Ordemann-Genealogie : http://privat.genealogy.net/ordemann
For more data see / For mer angivelser se på / Mehr Daten in
    http://gedbas.genealogy.net  http://wiki.genealogy.net
    http://www.geneanet.org      http://www.gencircles.com
       http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com (db=ordemann)
______________________________________________

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My grandmother spoke it and she has been dead since 1984.  She always
complained that nobody spoke it anymore.
According to my grandmother Plattdeutsch came from the Eichsfeld area and
there weren't enough speakers to keep it going.  High German sort of took
over.  You're in Germany.  Do you have other information? Heide
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Wilfried Petersen" <Wilfried.Petersen(a)t-online.de>
To: "Hannover-L" <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 12:48 PM
Subject: Re: [HN] PLATTDEUTSCH

"HeideB" <heideb(a)uneedspeed.net> schrieb:
> Plattdeutsch is no longer spoken.  Heide

Are you sure?
Wilfried

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Plattdeutsch is still quite a spread language in the nothern parts of 
Germany like Niedersachsen, Schleswig-Holstein and Mecklenburg., 
especially in rural areas. There are many villages in which Plattdeutsch 
is even today the common spoken language! Heide, leave your town and 
travel along the countryside!

Eberhard
HeideB schrieb:

Plattdeutsch is no longer spoken.  Heide

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Maureen" <mcshelly2(a)msn.com>

To: "Hannover-L" <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>

Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 12:18 PM

Subject: [HN] PLATTDEUTSCH

Where is Plattdeutsch spoken?

Is it something Regional?  
Spoken the low-lying areas near the sea, perhaps?
Or did it indicate one's social or economic "class" in Germany?  
Is it still spoken in Germany?
Maureen

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  that only may be when they speak low German (Plattdeutsch)

  there are different dialects between the different parts of Germany.

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Liebe Listies,

Nikolaus schrieb als Kommentar zu Heides
...English, by the way, is a Germanic language...

...das ist so ziemlich das neueste, was ich höre. Wenn ich mir den modernen
englischen Wortschatz so ansehe, dann finde ich zwar einen Haufen Wörter
mit Entsprechungen in diversen "germanischen" Sprachen, aber wenn man
genau hinsieht, strotzt die Sprache nur so von Romanismen und hat fast
mehr sprachliche Entsprechungen mit Französisch und anderen romanischen
Sprachen. Schau doch mal genau hin - nimm einen beliebigen längeren Text
aus Buch oder Zeitung und schreib an jedes Wort entweder ein G oder R.
Wetten, dass die Zahl der R's überwiegt?

Pardon, Nikolaus, aber jetzt hat Heide recht. Englisch gehört zur Gruppe 
der germanischen, genauer der westgermanischen Sprachen. Geh mal dazu 
bei Wikipedia unter Germanic languages gucken.
Man kann eine Sprache nicht nur so einfach nach dem Wortschatz zuordnen, 
zumal dieser Begriff für die meisten Leute nur aussagekräftige Wörter 
wie Substantive, Adjektive und Verben beinhaltet. Die vielen anderen 
Kategorien wie Präpositionen, Artikel, Demonstrativa, Fragewörter usw., 
die eigentlich erst das Funktionieren einer Sprache erlauben, werden 
dabei nicht beachtet. Aber gerade die sind es, die einer Sprache ihre 
Gruppenzugehörigkeit geben. Abgesehen von so Kleinigkeiten wie 
Verbformen, Tempora, Syntax und einige andere...
Das Englische hat seit Wilhelm dem Eroberer zwar französische Einflüsse 
erfahren, die sich hauptsächlich aber auf begrifflichen Wortschatz 
beschränken. Daher kommen viele der von Dir bemerkten "Romanismen". Eine 
zweite Welle der Einführung von "romanisch" klingenden Begriffen ist 
direkt auf das Latein zurückzuführen, in seiner Eigenschaft als 
Gelehrtensprache und, bis in unsere Zeit, als Quelle für 
wissenschaftliche Ausdrücke, die zunehmend Eingang in die Alltagspsrache 
finden.

Ein paar Beispiele: Schwein war früher swine, bis die normannischen 
Herren pork (<porc) einführten. Das gleiche gilt für cow, denn gegessen 
wurde nur beef (<boeuf).

Der Mond ist moon, aber die Mondfinsternis ist lunar eclipse. Der 
Sonnenstrahl ist sunbeam, aber die Sonneneinstrahlung ist solar 
radiation: Wenn's technisch wird, dann wird's lateinisch. Aber eben nur 
für Begriffliches, am Funktionieren der Sprache mit germanischen 
Strukturen ändert das nichts.
Die Strukturwörter des Englischen sind germanischen Ursprungs. Denk doch 
nur mal an die Fragewörter, die sind alle den deutschen wesentlich näher 
verwandt (alle mit w am Anfang) als den französischen oder lateinischen 
(beginnend mit qu). Die Konjugation mit zusammengesetzten Verbformen im 
Futur ist im Deutschen und Englischen die Regel, aber in den romanischen 
Sprachen werden Endungen benutzt. Die Reihe lässt sich fortsetzen.
So, jetzt bin ich wieder mal auf meinem Steckenpferd geritten, oder 
meiner Berufskrankeit erlegen. Wie man's nimmt.

Gruss 
Colette

Ex-Lehrerin für Französisch, Englisch, Deutsch.
www.llorca.ovh.org
http://gw.geneanet.org/cwelcker
"Nikolaus Ordemann" <n.ordemann(a)infocity.de> schrieb:
> Hallo HeideB,
> > ...English, by the way, is a Germanic language. 
> das ist so ziemlich das neueste, was ich höre. Wenn ich mir den modernen 
> englischen Wortschatz so ansehe, dann finde ich zwar einen Haufen Wörter 
> mit Entsprechungen in diversen "germanischen" Sprachen, aber wenn man 
> genau hinsieht, strotzt die Sprache nur so von Romanismen und hat fast 
> mehr sprachliche Entsprechungen mit Französisch und anderen romanischen 
> Sprachen.

Hallo Nikolaus,

sicher gibt es seit der Eroberung Englands durch Wilhelm den Eroberer 1066 eine Menge romanische (französische) Wörter und sonstige Einflüsse in der englischen Sprache, aber das ändert nichts daran, daß Englisch nach wie vor zu der germanischen Sprachfamilie zählt.

Liste er deutlich umschriebenen Sprachfamilien:
I. Indogermanisch:
a) Germanisch (Englisch, deutsch, Holländisch, Friesisch, Dänisch, Norwegisch, Isländisch, Schwedisch, Jiddisch)
b) Keltisch (Irisch, Gälisch, Walisisch, Bretonisch)
c) Romanisch (Französisch, Provenzalisch, Katalonisch, Spanisch, Portugiesisch, Italienisch, Rätoromanisch, Rumänisch)
...
usw.
(Frederick Bodmer: Die Sprachen der Welt, Köln 1955)

Germanische Sprachen werden von etwa 350 Millionen Menschen gesprochen. Davon entfallen etwa 200 Milionen auf das Englische, ... . Deutsch wird von über 80 Millionen Menschen ... gesprochen.
(Das Fischer Lexikon: Sprachen, Frankfurt a.M. 1962)

Germanische Sprachen, Zweig der indogermanischen Sprachfamilie mit folgenden Gruppen ... :
Nordgermanisch (...), Westgermanisch (Englisch, Friesisch, Niederdeutsch, Niederländisch, Hochdeutsch [mit Jiddisch[), Ostgermanisch (untergegangen).
(Meyers Großes Taschenlexikon, Bd. 8, 3. akt. Aufl., Mannheim 1990)

Eine Sprache wird eben nicht nur durch den Wortschatz charakterisiert, sondern noch durch eine ganze Reihe anderer Kriterien.

Freundliche Grüße,
Wilfried (Petersen)

Sehr geehrte Damen und Herren,
the language, that will never die, ist natürlich Latein. Und wenn man es 
hinzufügen soll - Griechisch. Man schaue sich die Begriffsbildungen bis in 
die modernsten technischen und naturwissenschaftlichen Bereiche hinein an . 
Aber auch "bicycle"  - das gute Zweirad im Englischen - ist natürlich 
griechischen Wortstämmen entlehnt - eben : "Zwei-Kreise", o kyklos ist der 
Kreis. bi-  dann im Lateinischen die Vorsilbe zur Bezeichjnung der 
Verdoppelung, der Zweiheit. Ob man amerikanisch oder russisch in den 
Weltraum fährt - Astronauten und Kosmosnauten fahren "griechisch". Es sind 
entweder die Fahrer , "Seeleute" zu den Sternen oder in das All. Es hat 
schon seinen Grund, warum manche Eltern ihre Kinder unbedingt als erste 
Sprache Latein und später ergänzend möglichst auch noch (Alt-) Griechisch 
lernen lassen.
Eglisch also ist sicher von mehreren Strängen beeinflusst - gewiss den 
sächsosch-germanischen Ursprüngen, wie auch, in mehreren Schüben, direkt 
oder über das Normannische indirekt vom Lateinischen.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen

Dr. Peus.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Wilfried Petersen" <Wilfried.Petersen(a)t-online.de>

To: "Hannover-L" <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>

Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 10:48 PM

Subject: Re: [HN] Y Umlaut: Pronunciations handed down

"Nikolaus Ordemann" <n.ordemann(a)infocity.de> schrieb:

Hallo HeideB,
> ...English, by the way, is a Germanic language.
das ist so ziemlich das neueste, was ich höre. Wenn ich mir den modernen
englischen Wortschatz so ansehe, dann finde ich zwar einen Haufen Wörter
mit Entsprechungen in diversen "germanischen" Sprachen, aber wenn man
genau hinsieht, strotzt die Sprache nur so von Romanismen und hat fast
mehr sprachliche Entsprechungen mit Französisch und anderen romanischen
Sprachen.

Hallo Nikolaus,
sicher gibt es seit der Eroberung Englands durch Wilhelm den Eroberer 1066 
eine Menge romanische (französische) Wörter und sonstige Einflüsse in der 
englischen Sprache, aber das ändert nichts daran, daß Englisch nach wie vor 
zu der germanischen Sprachfamilie zählt.
Liste er deutlich umschriebenen Sprachfamilien:

I. Indogermanisch:

a) Germanisch (Englisch, deutsch, Holländisch, Friesisch, Dänisch, 
Norwegisch, Isländisch, Schwedisch, Jiddisch)

b) Keltisch (Irisch, Gälisch, Walisisch, Bretonisch)

c) Romanisch (Französisch, Provenzalisch, Katalonisch, Spanisch, 
Portugiesisch, Italienisch, Rätoromanisch, Rumänisch)

...

usw.

(Frederick Bodmer: Die Sprachen der Welt, Köln 1955)
Germanische Sprachen werden von etwa 350 Millionen Menschen gesprochen. 
Davon entfallen etwa 200 Milionen auf das Englische, ... . Deutsch wird von 
über 80 Millionen Menschen ... gesprochen.

(Das Fischer Lexikon: Sprachen, Frankfurt a.M. 1962)
Germanische Sprachen, Zweig der indogermanischen Sprachfamilie mit folgenden 
Gruppen ... :

Nordgermanisch (...), Westgermanisch (Englisch, Friesisch, Niederdeutsch, 
Niederländisch, Hochdeutsch [mit Jiddisch[), Ostgermanisch (untergegangen).

(Meyers Großes Taschenlexikon, Bd. 8, 3. akt. Aufl., Mannheim 1990)
Eine Sprache wird eben nicht nur durch den Wortschatz charakterisiert, 
sondern noch durch eine ganze Reihe anderer Kriterien.
Freundliche Grüße,
Wilfried (Petersen)

______________________________________________
Hannover-L mailing list

Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net

http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l 
Hi Heidi and All,

I just got back from a week-long trip to Germany in search of ancestors.  We spent several days in Ostfriesland, trying to cope with:  Plattdeutsch.  Often High German is also understood, and so I survived.  But the thousands who speak Plattdeutsch don't know it is no longer spoken.> From: Wilfried.Petersen(a)t-online.de> To: hannover-l(a)genealogy.net> Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 19:48:00 +0000> Subject: Re: [HN] PLATTDEUTSCH> > "HeideB" <heideb(a)uneedspeed.net> schrieb:> > Plattdeutsch is no longer spoken. Heide> > > Are you sure?> Wilfried> > ______________________________________________> > Hannover-L mailing list> Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l
Don't they speak Flemish up on the coast?  That's what I heard when I was
there.  Heide  Please, the name is Heide.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Larry Monk" <lmonk33(a)msn.com>
To: "Hannover-L" <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 2:35 PM
Subject: Re: [HN] PLATTDEUTSCH

Hi Heidi and All,

I just got back from a week-long trip to Germany in search of ancestors.  We
spent several days in Ostfriesland, trying to cope with:  Plattdeutsch.
Often High German is also understood, and so I survived.  But the thousands
who speak Plattdeutsch don't know it is no longer spoken.> From:
Wilfried.Petersen(a)t-online.de> To: hannover-l(a)genealogy.net> Date: Mon, 1
Oct 2007 19:48:00 +0000> Subject: Re: [HN] PLATTDEUTSCH> > "HeideB"
<heideb(a)uneedspeed.net> schrieb:> > Plattdeutsch is no longer spoken. Heide>
> > Are you sure?> Wilfried> >
______________________________________________> > Hannover-L mailing list>
Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net>
http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l
______________________________________________

Hannover-L mailing list
Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
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Would Plattdeutsch be refered to as "Low German" ?     My ancestors from 
Hannover had spoken "Low German" at home and it was not considered as 
cultured as "High German".

From:  "HeideB" <heideb(a)uneedspeed.net>
Reply-To:  Hannover-L <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
To:  "Hannover-L" <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
Subject:  Re: [HN] PLATTDEUTSCH
Date:  Mon, 1 Oct 2007 13:00:28 -0700

My grandmother spoke it and she has been dead since 1984.  She always
complained that nobody spoke it anymore.
According to my grandmother Plattdeutsch came from the Eichsfeld area and
there weren't enough speakers to keep it going.  High German sort of took
over.  You're in Germany.  Do you have other information? Heide
----- Original Message -----
From: "Wilfried Petersen" <Wilfried.Petersen(a)t-online.de>
To: "Hannover-L" <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 12:48 PM
Subject: Re: [HN] PLATTDEUTSCH

"HeideB" <heideb(a)uneedspeed.net> schrieb:
> Plattdeutsch is no longer spoken.  Heide

Are you sure?
Wilfried
______________________________________________
Hannover-L mailing list
Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l

______________________________________________
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Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l

Hi to the Plattdeutsch researchers.
There was a very extensive discussion on the subject in
early 2005.
http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l
Select Deutsch or English and then view this page in.
Go to the archives and enter Plattdeutsch, the year 2005
and * for the month.
There were two experts who stated that Plattdeutsch (is) a
seperate language.
The town down the road from where I grew up has a
Plattdeutsch celebration each year.
http://www.davidkusel.com/germanconnection.htm
Check out the archives and this URL.
Gale

This is a good example of people misunderstanding what Low German means. I

would think that a people that work so diligently crossing every T and

dotting every I in their research would stop making the mistake of referring

to Plattdeutsch as a low language. When the German Government passed a law

making Hoch Deutsch the language that was to be taught in the schools and

spoken on the radio and television the other languages begin to slip by the

way side.

So boys and girls lets stop making the mistake of calling Plattdeutsch a low

language as in class and refer to it as the language that was spoken by the

people of the low lands of Northern Germany.

Jim

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "PJ V" <netkitty(a)hotmail.com>

To: <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>

Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 3:16 PM

Subject: Re: [HN] PLATTDEUTSCH

Would Plattdeutsch be refered to as "Low German" ?     My ancestors from
Hannover had spoken "Low German" at home and it was not considered as
cultured as "High German".

From:  "HeideB" <heideb(a)uneedspeed.net>
Reply-To:  Hannover-L <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
To:  "Hannover-L" <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
Subject:  Re: [HN] PLATTDEUTSCH
Date:  Mon, 1 Oct 2007 13:00:28 -0700

My grandmother spoke it and she has been dead since 1984.  She always
complained that nobody spoke it anymore.
According to my grandmother Plattdeutsch came from the Eichsfeld area and
there weren't enough speakers to keep it going.  High German sort of took
over.  You're in Germany.  Do you have other information? Heide
----- Original Message -----
From: "Wilfried Petersen" <Wilfried.Petersen(a)t-online.de>
To: "Hannover-L" <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 12:48 PM
Subject: Re: [HN] PLATTDEUTSCH

"HeideB" <heideb(a)uneedspeed.net> schrieb:
> Plattdeutsch is no longer spoken.  Heide

Are you sure?
Wilfried
______________________________________________
Hannover-L mailing list
Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l

______________________________________________
Hannover-L mailing list
Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l

______________________________________________
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I just wondered if the term "Plattdeutsch" would translate as "Low German" ? 
    I have heard "Low German" spoken of but have not heard the term 
Plattdeutsch before.
From: <gale(a)bosche.info>
Reply-To: Hannover-L <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
To: Hannover-L <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
Subject: Re: [HN] PLATTDEUTSCH
Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2007 18:38:21 -0400
Hi to the Plattdeutsch researchers.
There was a very extensive discussion on the subject in
early 2005.
http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l
Select Deutsch or English and then view this page in.
Go to the archives and enter Plattdeutsch, the year 2005
and * for the month.
There were two experts who stated that Plattdeutsch (is) a
seperate language.
The town down the road from where I grew up has a
Plattdeutsch celebration each year.
http://www.davidkusel.com/germanconnection.htm
Check out the archives and this URL.
Gale
______________________________________________
Hannover-L mailing list
Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l

The machine script in German certainly confuses 
the issue.  In my University German course... 
only first year... our handwritten assignments 
demanded umlauts with two downstrokes.  Perhaps 
this was to distinguish the script from the two 
dots of the diaeresis used by the French as in 
Noël, which indicates that that the vowels are 
sounded separately.  This was all pre-computer 
age in the 1970's.
The Y umlaut (apparent) examples, which I used to 
start off this thread, were all with two 
downstrokes.   However, the umlaut with two 
downstrokes could not be replicated in e-mails 
and was thus typed with two dots.

http://www.strong-family.org/wedemeyer/letter.html
I stopped writing in this lengthy correspondence, 
since I  didn't want an irate response from the 
list  along the lines of the insult / joke by the 
English about the French:  "they don't care what 
they do, as long as they pronounce it correctly!" 
On the other hand, I have really appreciated the 
numerous informative answers.
Thanks,
Philip Strong

--

        **Philip 
Strong***Email:plstrong(a)pnc.com.au***Blue 
Mountains, Australia**

                     Interest: WEDEMEYER of 
Moringen,  Goslar, Hannover Germany.

Emigrant to Gayndah, Mt Perry, Drummers Creek, 
Yarrol, Walla, Bundaberg  Queensland, Australia.

                         http://www.strong-family.org/wedemeyer/

I realize that there were regions of Germany where Plattdeutsch was more
prevalent (such as Hannover) than in other areas but I am still wondering
if High German was not the German taught in schools and Low German is
what was spoken in your local.  I am also guessing in some places the Low
German was different than in other places and High German stayed more
consistent from local to local?  This is not to say that language accents
did not differ from area to area even with in  taught High German

It is the same here in the USA.  Look at the differences from north to
south or east to west but the Language taught in school is the same. In
the south it is a "Bar Pit" and in the north a "Road Ditch"  In the north
we have "Sacks" and in the south they have "Pokes" etc---Bob Marhenke

On Mon, 01 Oct 2007 18:38:21 -0400 <gale(a)bosche.info> writes:
> Hi to the Plattdeutsch researchers.
> 
> There was a very extensive discussion on the subject in
> early 2005.
> 
> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l
> 
> Select Deutsch or English and then view this page in.
> Go to the archives and enter Plattdeutsch, the year 2005
> and * for the month.
> 
> There were two experts who stated that Plattdeutsch (is) a
> seperate language.
> 
> The town down the road from where I grew up has a
> Plattdeutsch celebration each year.
> 
> http://www.davidkusel.com/germanconnection.htm
> 
> Check out the archives and this URL.
> 
> Gale
> ______________________________________________
> 
> Hannover-L mailing list
> Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l
> 
> 

Hey, I'm sorry I brought it up.  And my apologies, Heide.  I'd like to hear from a qualified linguist who can tell the difference between Plattdeutch and Frisian and whatever else is out there, and can speak to the actual picture out there.  I assumed it was Plattdeutsch.  My cousin, born and raised in Grossefehn-Timmel, said it was Plattdeutsch.  This is sure a hot topic whenever one of us brings it up, nicht war?
Larry
> To: hannover-l(a)genealogy.net> Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 19:40:32 -0500> From: bobmarval(a)juno.com> Subject: Re: [HN] PLATTDEUTSCH> > I realize that there were regions of Germany where Plattdeutsch was more> prevalent (such as Hannover) than in other areas but I am still wondering> if High German was not the German taught in schools and Low German is> what was spoken in your local. I am also guessing in some places the Low> German was different than in other places and High German stayed more> consistent from local to local? This is not to say that language accents> did not differ from area to area even with in taught High German> > It is the same here in the USA. Look at the differences from north to> south or east to west but the Language taught in school is the same. In> the south it is a "Bar Pit" and in the north a "Road Ditch" In the north> we have "Sacks" and in the south they have "Pokes" etc---Bob Marhenke> > > On Mon, 01 Oct 2007 18:38:21 -0400 <gale(a)bosche.info> writes:> > Hi to the Plattdeutsch researchers.> > > > There was a very extensive discussion on the subject in> > early 2005.> > > > http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l> > > > Select Deutsch or English and then view this page in.> > Go to the archives and enter Plattdeutsch, the year 2005> > and * for the month.> > > > There were two experts who stated that Plattdeutsch (is) a> > seperate language.> > > > The town down the road from where I grew up has a> > Plattdeutsch celebration each year.> > > > http://www.davidkusel.com/germanconnection.htm> > > > Check out the archives and this URL.> > > > Gale> > ______________________________________________> > > > Hannover-L mailing list> > Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net> > http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l> > > > > ______________________________________________> > Hannover-L mailing list> Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l
Why don't you all just look at the very extensive (and as far as my 
experience goes, accurate) article here: 
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plattdeutsch . Even if you don't read German 
very well, you can get the gist of it. Plattdeutsch is the layman's term for 
Niederdeutsch, a familiy of dialects in northern Germany. See the article 
for details.
Mike

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Larry Monk" <lmonk33(a)msn.com>

To: "Hannover-L" <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>

Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 6:02 PM

Subject: Re: [HN] PLATTDEUTSCH

Hey, I'm sorry I brought it up.  And my apologies, Heide.  I'd like to hear 
from a qualified linguist who can tell the difference between Plattdeutch 
and Frisian and whatever else is out there, and can speak to the actual 
picture out there.  I assumed it was Plattdeutsch.  My cousin, born and 
raised in Grossefehn-Timmel, said it was Plattdeutsch.  This is sure a hot 
topic whenever one of us brings it up, nicht war?

Larry

To: hannover-l(a)genealogy.net> Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 19:40:32 -0500> From: 
bobmarval(a)juno.com> Subject: Re: [HN] PLATTDEUTSCH> > I realize that there 
were regions of Germany where Plattdeutsch was more> prevalent (such as 
Hannover) than in other areas but I am still wondering> if High German was 
not the German taught in schools and Low German is> what was spoken in 
your local. I am also guessing in some places the Low> German was 
different than in other places and High German stayed more> consistent 
from local to local? This is not to say that language accents> did not 
differ from area to area even with in taught High German> > It is the same 
here in the USA. Look at the differences from north to> south or east to 
west but the Language taught in school is the same. In> the south it is a 
"Bar Pit" and in the north a "Road Ditch" In the north> we have "Sacks" 
and in the south they have "Pokes" etc---Bob Marhenke> > > On Mon, 01 Oct 
2007 18:38:21 -0400 <gale(a)bosche.info> writes:> > Hi to the Plattdeutsch 
researchers.> > > > There was a very extensive discussion on the subject 
in> > early 2005.> > > > 
http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l> > > > Select 
Deutsch or English and then view this page in.> > Go to the archives and 
enter Plattdeutsch, the year 2005> > and * for the month.> > > > There 
were two experts who stated that Plattdeutsch (is) a> > seperate 
language.> > > > The town down the road from where I grew up has a> > 
Plattdeutsch celebration each year.> > > > 
http://www.davidkusel.com/germanconnection.htm> > > > Check out the 
archives and this URL.> > > > Gale> > 
______________________________________________> > > > Hannover-L mailing 
list> > Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net> > 
http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l> > > > > 
______________________________________________> > Hannover-L mailing list> 
Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net> 
http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l

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http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l 
Here's an English version:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_German
This answers my question.    Plattdeutsch is called "Low German" when 
refered to by English speakers.
From: "Mike Preiss" <mpreiss(a)sbcglobal.net>
Reply-To: Hannover-L <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
To: "Hannover-L" <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
Subject: Re: [HN] PLATTDEUTSCH
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 18:15:51 -0700
Why don't you all just look at the very extensive (and as far as my

experience goes, accurate) article here:

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plattdeutsch . Even if you don't read German

very well, you can get the gist of it. Plattdeutsch is the layman's term 
for

Niederdeutsch, a familiy of dialects in northern Germany. See the article

for details.
Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: "Larry Monk" <lmonk33(a)msn.com>
To: "Hannover-L" <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 6:02 PM
Subject: Re: [HN] PLATTDEUTSCH

Hey, I'm sorry I brought it up.  And my apologies, Heide.  I'd like to hear

from a qualified linguist who can tell the difference between Plattdeutch

and Frisian and whatever else is out there, and can speak to the actual

picture out there.  I assumed it was Plattdeutsch.  My cousin, born and

raised in Grossefehn-Timmel, said it was Plattdeutsch.  This is sure a hot

topic whenever one of us brings it up, nicht war?

Larry

> To: hannover-l(a)genealogy.net> Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 19:40:32 -0500> 
From:

> bobmarval(a)juno.com> Subject: Re: [HN] PLATTDEUTSCH> > I realize that 
there

> were regions of Germany where Plattdeutsch was more> prevalent (such as

> Hannover) than in other areas but I am still wondering> if High German 
was

> not the German taught in schools and Low German is> what was spoken in

> your local. I am also guessing in some places the Low> German was

> different than in other places and High German stayed more> consistent

> from local to local? This is not to say that language accents> did not

> differ from area to area even with in taught High German> > It is the 
same

> here in the USA. Look at the differences from north to> south or east to

> west but the Language taught in school is the same. In> the south it is 
a

> "Bar Pit" and in the north a "Road Ditch" In the north> we have "Sacks"

> and in the south they have "Pokes" etc---Bob Marhenke> > > On Mon, 01 
Oct

> 2007 18:38:21 -0400 <gale(a)bosche.info> writes:> > Hi to the Plattdeutsch

> researchers.> > > > There was a very extensive discussion on the subject

> in> > early 2005.> > > >

> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l> > > > Select

> Deutsch or English and then view this page in.> > Go to the archives and

> enter Plattdeutsch, the year 2005> > and * for the month.> > > > There

> were two experts who stated that Plattdeutsch (is) a> > seperate

> language.> > > > The town down the road from where I grew up has a> >

> Plattdeutsch celebration each year.> > > >

> http://www.davidkusel.com/germanconnection.htm> > > > Check out the

> archives and this URL.> > > > Gale> >

> ______________________________________________> > > > Hannover-L mailing

> list> > Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net> >

> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l> > > > >

> ______________________________________________> > Hannover-L mailing 
list>

> Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net>

> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l

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Hi Bernd

It is incorrect to say low German (Plattdeutsch). It should be, Plattdeutsch 
that is spoken in the low lands of Northern Germany. If you are trying to 
say in your message that Plattdeutsch is a dialect that is also incorrect as 
Pattdeutsch is a stand alone language. If you wish to have a LOW German 
language to refer to you might try Badisch, Hessenisch, or Bayrisch as those 
are dialects but I don't think that they would approve of their language 
being referred to as  LOW.

Jim

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bernd Salewski" <salewski.hambergen(a)ewetel.net>

To: "Hannover-L" <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>

Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 10:06 AM

Subject: Re: [HN] Hannover-L Nachrichtensammlung, Band 46, Eintrag 30

Hi Mona
that only may be when they speak low German (Plattdeutsch)
there are different dialects between the different parts of Germany.
High German will be understand everywhere in Germany.
I hope it wii be clear now.
Regards
Bernd
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mona" <HeritageHunt(a)Sandyview.info>

To: <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>

Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2007 3:53 PM

Subject: Re: [HN] Hannover-L Nachrichtensammlung, Band 46, Eintrag 30
hannover-l-request(a)genealogy.net wrote:
However, the contemporary Australian WEDEMEYERs
in our family all now use the usual German
pronunciation of  "meyer" as in "mire".

Sometimes contemporary speakers pronounce their name a certain way in
order for others to spell it correctly.  For example, my maiden name is
Mueller (umlaut u, of course).  Many families pronounce it as Miller,
and everyone in the community knows to spell it Mueller.
In our community, though, we had families whose names were Miller,
Muller and Mueller.  In order for our name to be spelled correctly by
those who heard it, we pronounced it Mueller, as in Mule - er.
In the other thread:
My mother who learned German in the US from her parents and grandparents
who were from east of the Oder, could not understand the speech of her
in-laws, who were from the Hannover area.
--
Mona Houser
HeritageHunt(a)sandyview.info
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~monajo/
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Plattdeutsch was the German spoken in North where the elevation was 
lower......hence the term "Low German".      High German was spoken to the 
south toward the mountains where the elevation was higher, hence the term 
"High German".
From: bob marhenke <bobmarval(a)juno.com>
Reply-To: Hannover-L <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
To: hannover-l(a)genealogy.net
Subject: Re: [HN] PLATTDEUTSCH
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 19:40:32 -0500
I realize that there were regions of Germany where Plattdeutsch was more
prevalent (such as Hannover) than in other areas but I am still wondering
if High German was not the German taught in schools and Low German is
what was spoken in your local.  I am also guessing in some places the Low
German was different than in other places and High German stayed more
consistent from local to local?  This is not to say that language accents
did not differ from area to area even with in  taught High German
It is the same here in the USA.  Look at the differences from north to
south or east to west but the Language taught in school is the same. In
the south it is a "Bar Pit" and in the north a "Road Ditch"  In the north
we have "Sacks" and in the south they have "Pokes" etc---Bob Marhenke

On Mon, 01 Oct 2007 18:38:21 -0400 <gale(a)bosche.info> writes:
> Hi to the Plattdeutsch researchers.
>
> There was a very extensive discussion on the subject in
> early 2005.
>
> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l
>
> Select Deutsch or English and then view this page in.
> Go to the archives and enter Plattdeutsch, the year 2005
> and * for the month.
>
> There were two experts who stated that Plattdeutsch (is) a
> seperate language.
>
> The town down the road from where I grew up has a
> Plattdeutsch celebration each year.
>
> http://www.davidkusel.com/germanconnection.htm
>
> Check out the archives and this URL.
>
> Gale
> ______________________________________________
>
> Hannover-L mailing list
> Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l
>
>
______________________________________________
Hannover-L mailing list
Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l

Jo,

   When you were researching the Hildesheim area did you come across 
the name Kleimenhagen?  The last I know of Hieronymus Kleimenhagen was 
about 1700, he was a soldier for the Bishop of Hildesheim. Thanks. Carol
My question is simple.  What is taught in German schools whether it be
north or south, Low German or High German???

On Tue, 02 Oct 2007 02:08:56 +0000 "PJ V" <netkitty(a)hotmail.com> writes:
> Plattdeutsch was the German spoken in North where the elevation was 
> lower......hence the term "Low German".      High German was spoken 
> to the 
> south toward the mountains where the elevation was higher, hence the 
> term 
> "High German".
> 
> 
> >From: bob marhenke <bobmarval(a)juno.com>
> >Reply-To: Hannover-L <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
> >To: hannover-l(a)genealogy.net
> >Subject: Re: [HN] PLATTDEUTSCH
> >Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 19:40:32 -0500
> >
> >I realize that there were regions of Germany where Plattdeutsch was 
> more
> >prevalent (such as Hannover) than in other areas but I am still 
> wondering
> >if High German was not the German taught in schools and Low German 
> is
> >what was spoken in your local.  I am also guessing in some places 
> the Low
> >German was different than in other places and High German stayed 
> more
> >consistent from local to local?  This is not to say that language 
> accents
> >did not differ from area to area even with in  taught High German
> >
> >It is the same here in the USA.  Look at the differences from north 
> to
> >south or east to west but the Language taught in school is the 
> same. In
> >the south it is a "Bar Pit" and in the north a "Road Ditch"  In the 
> north
> >we have "Sacks" and in the south they have "Pokes" etc---Bob 
> Marhenke
> >
> >
> >On Mon, 01 Oct 2007 18:38:21 -0400 <gale(a)bosche.info> writes:
> > > Hi to the Plattdeutsch researchers.
> > >
> > > There was a very extensive discussion on the subject in
> > > early 2005.
> > >
> > > http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l
> > >
> > > Select Deutsch or English and then view this page in.
> > > Go to the archives and enter Plattdeutsch, the year 2005
> > > and * for the month.
> > >
> > > There were two experts who stated that Plattdeutsch (is) a
> > > seperate language.
> > >
> > > The town down the road from where I grew up has a
> > > Plattdeutsch celebration each year.
> > >
> > > http://www.davidkusel.com/germanconnection.htm
> > >
> > > Check out the archives and this URL.
> > >
> > > Gale
> > > ______________________________________________
> > >
> > > Hannover-L mailing list
> > > Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> > > http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l
> > >
> > >
> >______________________________________________
> >
> >Hannover-L mailing list
> >Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> >http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l
> 
> 
> ______________________________________________
> 
> Hannover-L mailing list
> Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
> http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l
> 
> 

So my US-born grandfather, whose parents were from Hannover, really had no reason to be so terribly insulted when his wife's brother-in-law from the mountainous Eifel Region called him "Plattdeutsch" -- and that was NOT a sound and rational reason for starting a lifelong family feud?  :)

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: PJ V 
  To: hannover-l(a)genealogy.net 
  Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 9:08 PM
  Subject: Re: [HN] PLATTDEUTSCH

  Plattdeutsch was the German spoken in North where the elevation was 
  lower......hence the term "Low German".      High German was spoken to the 
  south toward the mountains where the elevation was higher, hence the term 
  "High German".

  >From: bob marhenke <bobmarval(a)juno.com>
  >Reply-To: Hannover-L <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
  >To: hannover-l(a)genealogy.net
  >Subject: Re: [HN] PLATTDEUTSCH
  >Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 19:40:32 -0500
  >
  >I realize that there were regions of Germany where Plattdeutsch was more
  >prevalent (such as Hannover) than in other areas but I am still wondering
  >if High German was not the German taught in schools and Low German is
  >what was spoken in your local.  I am also guessing in some places the Low
  >German was different than in other places and High German stayed more
  >consistent from local to local?  This is not to say that language accents
  >did not differ from area to area even with in  taught High German
  >
  >It is the same here in the USA.  Look at the differences from north to
  >south or east to west but the Language taught in school is the same. In
  >the south it is a "Bar Pit" and in the north a "Road Ditch"  In the north
  >we have "Sacks" and in the south they have "Pokes" etc---Bob Marhenke
  >
  >
  >On Mon, 01 Oct 2007 18:38:21 -0400 <gale(a)bosche.info> writes:
  > > Hi to the Plattdeutsch researchers.
  > >
  > > There was a very extensive discussion on the subject in
  > > early 2005.
  > >
  > > http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l
  > >
  > > Select Deutsch or English and then view this page in.
  > > Go to the archives and enter Plattdeutsch, the year 2005
  > > and * for the month.
  > >
  > > There were two experts who stated that Plattdeutsch (is) a
  > > seperate language.
  > >
  > > The town down the road from where I grew up has a
  > > Plattdeutsch celebration each year.
  > >
  > > http://www.davidkusel.com/germanconnection.htm
  > >
  > > Check out the archives and this URL.
  > >
  > > Gale
  > > ______________________________________________
  > >
  > > Hannover-L mailing list
  > > Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
  > > http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l
  > >
  > >
  >______________________________________________
  >
  >Hannover-L mailing list
  >Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
  >http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l

  ______________________________________________

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Guten Abend,

gibt es für den norddeutschen Raum ein Schifferverzeichnis und wo kann man
das einsehen?

Mit freundlichen Grüßen

Manfred Puffahrt

HeideB schrieb:

My grandmother spoke it and she has been dead since 1984.  She always

complained that nobody spoke it anymore.

According to my grandmother Plattdeutsch came from the Eichsfeld area and

there weren't enough speakers to keep it going.  High German sort of took

over.  You're in Germany.  Do you have other information? Heide

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Wilfried Petersen" <Wilfried.Petersen(a)t-online.de>

To: "Hannover-L" <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>

Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 12:48 PM

Subject: Re: [HN] PLATTDEUTSCH

"HeideB" <heideb(a)uneedspeed.net> schrieb:

Plattdeutsch is no longer spoken.  Heide

Are you sure?
Wilfried

****************************************************************
Hi, dear HeideB,
you?r totaly wrong!
Your grandmother is dead,
Plattdeutsch is still alive.
That makes the differenc.
http://www.ins-db.de/verlag-ort.php?ORT_ID=25
http://www.ins-db.de/regional-index.html

Klaus (Vahlbruch) plattdeutsch nativ-speaker

> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: Hannover-L <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
> Gesendet: 02.10.07 08:54:39
> An: Hannover-L <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
> Betreff: Re: [HN] PLATTDEUTSCH

Thank you Klaus Vahlbruch

Plattdeutsch really is still alive. In the northern of Germany many people are speaking Plattdeutsch. In many villages and smaller citys, many children are learning Plattdeutsch at school. It is an important part of the local history. And many teachers and private people are working hard to save this wonderful old language! It never will be dead ! 

Uwe Weddige, native speaker from the Lueneburger Heide

-------------------------------------------------------------------
Uwe Weddige
Lütjenburgerstr. 22
24211 Rastorfer-Passau
Mob 0174 86 999 68

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Hallo colette,
Nikolaus schrieb als Kommentar zu Heides
...English, by the way, is a Germanic language...

...das ist so ziemlich das neueste, was ich höre. Wenn ich mir den modernen
englischen ...

Pardon, Nikolaus, aber jetzt hat Heide recht....
Die Strukturwörter des Englischen sind germanischen Ursprungs. Denk doch 
nur mal an die Fragewörter, ...
So, jetzt bin ich wieder mal auf meinem Steckenpferd geritten, oder 
meiner Berufskrankeit erlegen. Wie man's nimmt.

jeder hat ja soooooooooo recht (stammt nicht von mir, ist, ohne die 
vielen "o"s, soweit ich mich erinnere, von meinem Freund Kurt 
Tucholski.)! Ich bin übrigens auch ein Sprach-Fan.

Was die Sprachstruktur angeht, 100% d'accord. Über alles andere könnte 
man noch stundenlang diskutieren - wobei ich gegenüber einem 
Sprach-Profi natürlich sicher den Kürzeren ziehen würde.
Freundliche Grüße
Nikolaus
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 Ordemann-Genealogie : http://privat.genealogy.net/ordemann
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Hi all,

first I followed this thread with great amusement but at a certain point I have to admit that I got a bit angry. And like Klaus and Uwe already did I also have to out myself as a native Plattdeutsch speaker. I am 47 years old and from the very northern part of Northrhine-Westphalia called East-Westphalia. 

Plattdeutsch is alive. Not a single doubt.

As good and serious genealogists shouldn't we all strongly stay away from simplifying and generalizing individual experiences from our deceased ancestors as being valid for everyone and every situation?

Like Klaus already said: you're totally wrong, Heide. I really hate to say that... but that statement was pure nonsense. I feel deeply sorry, so please forgive.

Kind regards,
Vera Nagel
Hat jemand Zugang zu Unterlagen in Osnabrück ?
Ich suche Daten zu:
Rucop Gerd  00  mit
Winkelmann Sophie
Sohn Rucop, Wilhelm Franz Hinrich * 24.02.1821 in 
Osnabrück + 04.06.1868  00 in Lübeck

        Biehl, Caroline Anna Maria * 31.10.1823 + 03.03.1857
Ich freue mich über jeden Hinweis aus Osnabrück und Lübeck.
Es grüßt Ursula
bob marhenke schrieb:

My question is simple.  What is taught in German schools whether it
be north or south, Low German or High German???

Hi Bob,
as simple as your question may be,
as complicated is the true answer!
- usualy in all German schools "High German" is taught, but
in the north: from Danish border ut to Harz-mountain,
from Münster in the west to the balticsea, there are
several schools "Low German" is taught to the children.
After world-war-II it seams (to me) as if "Low German = Plattdeutsch"
should came down, but there war a great movement to refresh
this language and the number of schools that offer Plattdeutsch
to the children increases.
I was born 1945 and I didn?t learn Plattdeutsch in school
but I leaned from the farmworkers on my fathers farm.
Today I?m listening radio-brodcasting each morning in "Platt"
even I don?t live in the contry anymore but in the city of Hamburg
"tempora mutantur, nos et mutamur in illis"
"Die Zeiten ändern sich und wir ändern uns in ihnen"
English (?): time change and we change as well
Klaus
.

The book of Heinrich Porth named
Die Familien und Einwohner des Kirchspiels Hanstedt I

Ortsfamilienbuch 1679-1895 mit den Orten Allenbostel, Bode, Brauel, Eitzen 
II, Hanstedt I, Oechtringen, Teendorf, Tellmer, Velgen, Wettenbostel
In the archiv of Hildesheim is only one book. It's not possible to read this 
there!!!
Helmut Studte, Hildesheim

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "jo meyer" <gengeeheide(a)hotmail.com>

To: <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>

Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 9:22 PM

Subject: [HN] KORN, CULEMANN of Hildesheimischen

I hope you all have had a good summer. I have been  working on Rosseburg, 
Schlicht, Koopman,Bruns,Michel, Ahrens, Meyer Of Oldendorf.

Sueschendorf= Reinecke, Schroder. etc.

I am recording all names that I have into Family treemaker for easy look 
ups and possible sharing. Many names from my villages and areas. Whether 
related or not.!
I am so grateful for the OFB Himbergen book. I was able to find more on 
those who had connections to Torwe, Gross thondorf, Westersunderburg, Klein 
Thondorf, Romstedt, Ratzlingen, Weste, Strothe, Stoetze,Boecke, Kettelstorf, 
and a few others. Werner, Warnecke,Harms, Meyer. Koopman Rosseburg. etc 
Reinke.

I have not found village of Boetze yet. Yesterday found Stoetze mentioned on 
line. [smile]
I keep seeing the name Korn with the back ground of this:

#2542

Carl Bernhard Korn *30.10. 1787 [err.]  Gronau in Hildesheimischen- 
+19.10.1758 Gross Thondorf

He married before 1814. He lived  wohnort 1819 at Gross thondorf. He is a 
r.-Kath.

His first wife Elisabeth Culemann * 1778 [err] Ahrenstedt amt. Windenstedt 
im Hildesheimischen.)5.6.18.31. Gross Thondorf.
I tryed to google for  Windenstedt did not get anything. I belive this must 
be the area of Hildescheim. Perhaps I should try Winden or Windenstadt. I 
shall google Hildescheim map  and get familiar. Ahrendstedt results so far 
show Schw. Holstein.
I am debating about purchasing the book for Hildesheim area written by 
Heinrich Porth.
Could any one take a peek and see if there are many more in this tree?

When I had someone look before I got so greedy about how many that were 
there,I decided to purchase the book. As I mentioned before it was a very 
good idea. [smile] Perhaps there is more on Culeman too. I do not know.
I am not sure how to research roman katholic people.
Would the Radenbeck of the Thomasburg church be in the same book. there were 
a few References in the Himbergen book to that village. None of my Meyer 
mentioned. I think Radenbeck is in the political area of Altenmedengen. I 
hope i spelled that correct.
I look forward to any help or attention you may give my little problems.
Thank You all for your attention.
Jo Meyer''''''Wi.MN, Iowa

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Ha Ha, who knows?      In a written family history of my ancestors who 
immigrated to rural Michigan in 1872  it was written that my great Aunts and 
Uncles on the farm would embarrass their parents by speaking "Low German" in 
front of guests.     They could speak "High German" if they wanted to but 
"Low German" was what they spoke at home normally.
From: "Maureen" <mcshelly2(a)msn.com>
Reply-To: Hannover-L <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
To: "Hannover-L" <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
Subject: Re: [HN] PLATTDEUTSCH
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 23:36:09 -0500
So my US-born grandfather, whose parents were from Hannover, really had no 
reason to be so terribly insulted when his wife's brother-in-law from the 
mountainous Eifel Region called him "Plattdeutsch" -- and that was NOT a 
sound and rational reason for starting a lifelong family feud?  :)

  ----- Original Message -----
  From: PJ V
  To: hannover-l(a)genealogy.net
  Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 9:08 PM
  Subject: Re: [HN] PLATTDEUTSCH

  Plattdeutsch was the German spoken in North where the elevation was

  lower......hence the term "Low German".      High German was spoken to 
the

  south toward the mountains where the elevation was higher, hence the 
term

  "High German".

  >From: bob marhenke <bobmarval(a)juno.com>

  >Reply-To: Hannover-L <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>

  >To: hannover-l(a)genealogy.net

  >Subject: Re: [HN] PLATTDEUTSCH

  >Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 19:40:32 -0500

  >

  >I realize that there were regions of Germany where Plattdeutsch was 
more

  >prevalent (such as Hannover) than in other areas but I am still 
wondering

  >if High German was not the German taught in schools and Low German is

  >what was spoken in your local.  I am also guessing in some places the 
Low

  >German was different than in other places and High German stayed more

  >consistent from local to local?  This is not to say that language 
accents

  >did not differ from area to area even with in  taught High German

  >

  >It is the same here in the USA.  Look at the differences from north to

  >south or east to west but the Language taught in school is the same. In

  >the south it is a "Bar Pit" and in the north a "Road Ditch"  In the 
north

  >we have "Sacks" and in the south they have "Pokes" etc---Bob Marhenke

  >

  >

  >On Mon, 01 Oct 2007 18:38:21 -0400 <gale(a)bosche.info> writes:

  > > Hi to the Plattdeutsch researchers.

  > >

  > > There was a very extensive discussion on the subject in

  > > early 2005.

  > >

  > > http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l

  > >

  > > Select Deutsch or English and then view this page in.

  > > Go to the archives and enter Plattdeutsch, the year 2005

  > > and * for the month.

  > >

  > > There were two experts who stated that Plattdeutsch (is) a

  > > seperate language.

  > >

  > > The town down the road from where I grew up has a

  > > Plattdeutsch celebration each year.

  > >

  > > http://www.davidkusel.com/germanconnection.htm

  > >

  > > Check out the archives and this URL.

  > >

  > > Gale

  > > ______________________________________________

  > >

  > > Hannover-L mailing list

  > > Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net

  > > http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l

  > >

  > >

  >______________________________________________

  >

  >Hannover-L mailing list

  >Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net

  >http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l

  ______________________________________________
  Hannover-L mailing list
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Could you give us an example of the same sentence in both Plattdeutsch and 
in High German ?  That would be interesting.      Is the difference mainly 
in vocabulary or in inntonation?
From: Uwe Weddige <Uwe.Weddige(a)web.de>
Reply-To: Hannover-L <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
To: Hannover-L <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
Subject: Re: [HN] PLATTDEUTSCH
Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2007 09:15:40 +0200

> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: Hannover-L <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
> Gesendet: 02.10.07 08:54:39
> An: Hannover-L <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
> Betreff: Re: [HN] PLATTDEUTSCH

Thank you Klaus Vahlbruch
Plattdeutsch really is still alive. In the northern of Germany many people 
are speaking Plattdeutsch. In many villages and smaller citys, many 
children are learning Plattdeutsch at school. It is an important part of 
the local history. And many teachers and private people are working hard to 
save this wonderful old language! It never will be dead !
Uwe Weddige, native speaker from the Lueneburger Heide

-------------------------------------------------------------------
Uwe Weddige
Lütjenburgerstr. 22
24211 Rastorfer-Passau
Mob 0174 86 999 68

______________________________________________________________________
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I don't want to offend anyone here.    When I said it was written that my 
ancestors would embarrass their parents I interpreted that to mean that many 
of the other Germans who immigrated to the rural area in Michigan were from 
all different parts of Germany and apparently to most of them Plattdeutsh 
was not considered as sophistocated as "High German"         My Great Aunts 
and Uncles seemed to purposely speak Plattdeustsch knowing that would irk 
their parents.    It was just a cute little teasing among them.       There 
was a lot of joking going on among my ancesotrs.      I've seen photos of 
them on the farm around 1900 and they were cards, there were 14 children in 
the family!
From: "PJ V" <netkitty(a)hotmail.com>
Reply-To: Hannover-L <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>
To: hannover-l(a)genealogy.net
Subject: Re: [HN] PLATTDEUTSCH
Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2007 13:31:08 +0000
Ha Ha, who knows?      In a written family history of my ancestors who

immigrated to rural Michigan in 1872  it was written that my great Aunts 
and

Uncles on the farm would embarrass their parents by speaking "Low German" 
in

front of guests.     They could speak "High German" if they wanted to but

"Low German" was what they spoke at home normally.

>From: "Maureen" <mcshelly2(a)msn.com>

>Reply-To: Hannover-L <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>

>To: "Hannover-L" <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>

>Subject: Re: [HN] PLATTDEUTSCH

>Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 23:36:09 -0500

>

>So my US-born grandfather, whose parents were from Hannover, really had 
no

>reason to be so terribly insulted when his wife's brother-in-law from the

>mountainous Eifel Region called him "Plattdeutsch" -- and that was NOT a

>sound and rational reason for starting a lifelong family feud?  :)

>

>

>   ----- Original Message -----

>   From: PJ V

>   To: hannover-l(a)genealogy.net

>   Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 9:08 PM

>   Subject: Re: [HN] PLATTDEUTSCH

>

>

>   Plattdeutsch was the German spoken in North where the elevation was

>   lower......hence the term "Low German".      High German was spoken to

>the

>   south toward the mountains where the elevation was higher, hence the

>term

>   "High German".

>

>

>   >From: bob marhenke <bobmarval(a)juno.com>

>   >Reply-To: Hannover-L <hannover-l(a)genealogy.net>

>   >To: hannover-l(a)genealogy.net

>   >Subject: Re: [HN] PLATTDEUTSCH

>   >Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 19:40:32 -0500

>   >

>   >I realize that there were regions of Germany where Plattdeutsch was

>more

>   >prevalent (such as Hannover) than in other areas but I am still

>wondering

>   >if High German was not the German taught in schools and Low German is

>   >what was spoken in your local.  I am also guessing in some places the

>Low

>   >German was different than in other places and High German stayed more

>   >consistent from local to local?  This is not to say that language

>accents

>   >did not differ from area to area even with in  taught High German

>   >

>   >It is the same here in the USA.  Look at the differences from north 
to

>   >south or east to west but the Language taught in school is the same. 
In

>   >the south it is a "Bar Pit" and in the north a "Road Ditch"  In the

>north

>   >we have "Sacks" and in the south they have "Pokes" etc---Bob Marhenke

>   >

>   >

>   >On Mon, 01 Oct 2007 18:38:21 -0400 <gale(a)bosche.info> writes:

>   > > Hi to the Plattdeutsch researchers.

>   > >

>   > > There was a very extensive discussion on the subject in

>   > > early 2005.

>   > >

>   > > http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l

>   > >

>   > > Select Deutsch or English and then view this page in.

>   > > Go to the archives and enter Plattdeutsch, the year 2005

>   > > and * for the month.

>   > >

>   > > There were two experts who stated that Plattdeutsch (is) a

>   > > seperate language.

>   > >

>   > > The town down the road from where I grew up has a

>   > > Plattdeutsch celebration each year.

>   > >

>   > > http://www.davidkusel.com/germanconnection.htm

>   > >

>   > > Check out the archives and this URL.

>   > >

>   > > Gale

>   > > ______________________________________________

>   > >

>   > > Hannover-L mailing list

>   > > Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net

>   > > http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l

>   > >

>   > >

>   >______________________________________________

>   >

>   >Hannover-L mailing list

>   >Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net

>   >http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l

>

>

>   ______________________________________________

>

>   Hannover-L mailing list

>   Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net

>   http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l

>______________________________________________

>

>Hannover-L mailing list

>Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net

>http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/listinfo/hannover-l

______________________________________________
Hannover-L mailing list
Hannover-L(a)genealogy.net
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Hallo,
obiges Zitat scheint die Sache ziemlich zusammenzufassen.
Jedenfalls bin ich "platt" über den linguistischen Enthusiasmus der 
Listenmitglieder! Aber bitte: Nicht ärgern, auch nicht über 
Verallgemeinerungen von einzelnen Erfahrungen. Sicher will hier keiner 
keinem zu nahe treten.
Aber  englisch- und deutschsprachige Mitglieder würden sicher von ein 
paar Besuchen bei Wikipedia profitieren. Der ganze Komplex: 
Standarddeutsch, Hochdeutsch, Oberdeutsch und Niederdeutsch 
(Plattdeutsch) ist sehr klar und übersichtlich auf Deutsch UND Englisch 
dargestellt.
Beim Suchen habe ich sogar eine spezielle "bairische" Wikipediaseite 
entdeckt!!! In dieser (oberdeutschen) Dialektvariante geschrieben, siehe 
auf:

http://bar.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hauptseitn
For English speaking list members: your linguistic enthusiasm is 
stunning!  But PLEASE read the articles in ENGLISH (or German) about 
Standard German, High German and other linked items. They are much more 
extensive than anything written on the list.
Grüsse/regards
Colette
www.llorca.ovh.org
http://gw.geneanet.org/cwelcker
Hi Maureen,

It would appear that your grandfather did not understand what "Plattdeutsch"
really meant or that it was a convenient excuse not to speak to or see
someone that he preferred not to.

Bobbi

Original Message:

Maureen <Ha>    to Hannover-L

   So my US-born grandfather, whose parents were from Hannover, really had
no reason to be so terribly insulted when his wife's brother-in-law from the
mountainous Eifel Region called him "Plattdeutsch" -- and that was NOT a
sound and rational reason for starting a lifelong family feud?  :)

PJ V schrieb:

Could you give us an example of the same sentence in both Plattdeutsch 
and in High German ?  That would be interesting.      Is the difference 
mainly in vocabulary or in inntonation?
****************************************************************
Our Father which art in heaven,

Hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come.
Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our debts,
as we forgive our debtors.
And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil:
For thine is the kingdom,
and the power, and the glory, for ever.
Amen.

**************************************************************
Deutsch:
Vater Unser im Himmel,

Geheiligt werde dein Name,
Dein Reich komme,
Dein Wille geschehe,
wie im Himmel so auf Erden.
Unser tägliches Brot gib uns heute.
Und vergib uns unsere Schuld,
wie auch wir vergeben unseren Schuldigern.
Und führe uns nicht in Versuchung,
sondern erlöse uns von dem Bösen.
Denn dein ist das Reich und die Kraft
und die Herrlichkeit in Ewigkeit.
Amen
*************************************************************
Plattdeutsch: nach einer deutshen Bibelübersetzung
von Johannes Jessen, Pastor in Kiel, 1933, Schleswig-Holstein

Un wenn ji beden dot,
denn rappel nichso los,
as de Heiden makt!
...
So schüllt je beden; hört mol to!
Unse vader in'n Heben!
Mak din Nam herrli und hillig ock bi us!
Help du us ok dorto, dat du ganz unse Herr warst!
Din Will schall dörchstahn bi us up de Eer
grad so as bi die in'n Heben!
Giff us vundag dat Brod, dat wi hüt nödi hebbt!
Un denn vergiff us unse Schulden,
grad so as wi vergeven hebbt de Minschen,
de us wat schülli sünd.
Und help dorto, dat wi nich in Versökung kamt!
Ja, mak us frie un redd us vun dat Böse!
Denn din is dat Riek un de Kraft und de Herrlikeit
in Ewikeit.
Amen
*************************************************************
Borbecker Platt (a region in Germany)
Onsen Vader en?n Hemmel
Din Name soll on hillig sein.
Din Riek sall bin on kommen.
Allens sall sien, so as Du ät seggs,
ob Ären gliek so as en?n Hemmel.
Gäw an Vandage wat wi nödig brukt.
On lott onsere Schuld vergewwen sien,
so as wi dat met da Annern daut,
dä uns wat schuldig blewen send.
On stell uns nech so faak oppe Pröve.
Befie on liewer von alles, wat van Uewel es.

*************************************************************
listen to the voice: (Platt in Hannover)
"Vollkommen fremd und doch vertraut klingen die Gebete und
Bibeltexte im Plattdeutschen Zentrum auf dem Kirchentag.
Die Nicolai-Kirche im Norden Hannovers ist der Treffpunkt
für alle Liebhaber des Plattdeutschen.
Obwohl die einzelnen Platt-Dialekte unterschiedlich klingen,
sind sich alle Sprecher einig: Gott spricht Platt.
Einfach mal reinhören, wie Platt klingt.
Das "Vater Unser" gebetet von Hanne Lömers-Röben."
http://www.kirchentag2005.de/s9y/index.php?/archives/118-mp3-Die-Bibel-up-Platt.html

"Vater Unser" hören: Vater Unser (Plattdeutsch) - Mp3-AudioFile - 36sek; 0,8MB

*************************************************************
Friesisch: (don?t mix it up with Plattdeutsch!)
Us Heit yn 'e Himel,

lit jo namme hillige wurde,
lit jo keninkryk komme,
lit jo wil dien wurde
op ierde likegoed as yn 'e himel.
Jou ús hjoed ús deistrich brea
en ferjou ús ús skulden,
sa't wy ús skuldners ek ferjûn hawwe;
en lit ús net yn fersiking komme,
mar ferlos ús fan 'e kwearde.
Amen!
***********************************************************
Münsterländisch (Münsterländer Platt)
Usse Vader in'n Himmel.
Mogg doch dienen Namen ümmers hillig brukt wär'n.
Dien Riek laot to us kuemmen.
Dienen Willen sall hier up de Äer so daon wär'n, äs bi die in'n Himmel.
Watt wi daogsüöwer an Braut brukt, giw us datt auk vandagg.
Vergiw us, watt wi Leig's daon häbbt!
Wi willt auk de nich watt naodriägen, well us watt andaorn häbbt!
Laot an us Schlecht's nich herankuemmen.
Niemm von us wegg, watt nich guett is.
Denn dien is dat Riek un de Kraft un de Herrlichkeit in Ewigkeit.
Amen.
**************************************************************
OSTFÄLISCH PLATTDUITSCH (Ostwestfalen-Lippe)
Darümme söllt jai söo behen:
Vader iuse in'n Himmel.
Eheiligt were dain Name.
Dain Raik kume.
Dain Wille gescheihe
as in'n Himmel söo auk up Eern.
Iuse däägliche Braud giff ösch huite.
Un vergiff ösch iuse Schuld,
as auk wai vergievet iusen Schülligern.
Un führe ösch nich in Versoikunge,
sondern erlöise ösch von'n Böisen.
Denn dain is et Raik un de Kraft un de Herrlichkeit in Ewigkeit.
Amen.
********************************************************************
Wittlicher Platt (Wittlich, Rheinland Pfalz)
Vatta owen em himel
dain nomen soll hailsich sain
dai raich soll kommen
daine wellen sai gedon
em himel wie hai op da welt.
Gäff es hait os brut fir morjen
un los es no os schold
genau so wie mir se dänen noloßen
di os ebbes schellisch sain
un bräng es net en vasochung renn
awa dn daiwel hal es vom laif.
Amen.
*******************************************************************
I hope this helps.
Klaus (Vahlbruch)

Hi Plattdeutschers
It seems that there were/are several dialects of 
Plattdeutsch.  Below is the version of the Lord's Prayer 
used in parts of the Midwest.
Below is the The Lord's Prayer (In Midwestern 
Plattdeutsch)

Uns Vader, de is in Himmel.

Heiliget is dien Naam.

Dien Riek sall komen.

Dien Will doch doon,

up Welt as dat is in Himmel.

Gäv uns dis Dag

uns dagliks Brod.

Un vergäv uns uns Schuld,

as wi vergäven uns Schuldners.

Un bring uns nich in Versuchung.

Aber spaar uns van de Übel.

Denn dien is dat Riek

un de Kraft

un de Herrlichkeit

in Ewigkeit!

Amen.
I chose to add it to Klaus' string so that comparisons 
could be made.
Gale
On Tue, 02 Oct 2007 17:20:24 +0200
 Klaus Vahlbruch <klaus-vahlbruch(a)gmx.de> wrote:

PJ V schrieb:

Could you give us an example of the same sentence in 
both Plattdeutsch 
and in High German ?  That would be interesting.      Is 
the difference 
mainly in vocabulary or in inntonation?
****************************************************************
Our Father which 